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Eve WiS

Author
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#61 - 2016-08-09 15:14:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Nana Skalski wrote:
When we compare EVE and others like Elite and SC, you can see that its all a battle of APC's rather than who drives porshe and who HMMWV.

They try to push for as much features/firepower as possible to dictate the conditions on battlefield. And even when CCP is standing strong with EVE, they are constantly shoot at and their vehicle is looking less impressive with every piece of stuff added to the rivals.

I remember when in CSM notes someone started with asking what car EVE is, like they perceive it.

I would rather ask them: where do you want to go with that campaign and with that vehicle, because there are others out there ready to shoot you in the head.


Lets just ignore the fact that every time a new game comes out it's supposed to kill EVE.

So far that list inculdes:
Earth and Beyond (ie "E&B is gonna be so much better than EVE, EVE will be dead in 6 months because of griefing!!!")
Jumpgate
Black Prophecy
SWG
SWTOR
Elite
STO

And yet EVE is still here and most of that list is defunct. Fortunately for us, those that are left seem to be as "Dying" as EVE. Twisted
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#62 - 2016-08-09 15:20:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
What do you mean by killing? My shoot you in the head term was about completely outclassing the competition.

You forgot one thing with Star Citizen and Elite, they are still out there to "kill" EVE. They were/are slowly killing it.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#63 - 2016-08-09 15:23:50 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
What do you mean by killing? My shoot you in the head term was about completely outclassing the competition.

You forgot one thing with Star Citizen and Elite, they are still out there to "kill" EVE. They were/are slowly killing it.


Prove it.
Noroswen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2016-08-09 15:24:19 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


They are creating a stand alone FPS game, not one built on the bones of an old game.

Have you not noticed that every time CCP introduces new content other things get broken? Where you around for the 1st WiS failure? The old saying that "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it". CCP is a company with one big product, while you think they are being lazy, I know they are being smart by refraining from screwing up that main product.

CCP almost failed several times screwing with EVE (and several more by ignoring EVE altogether). Now they are doing it right, letting EVE be the flagship and limiting their expansive tendencies to in universe (rather than in game) properties

. Again, there are other games if what you want is walking around.


Well I suppose you and I are on different sides of the aisle on this. I never meant to imply in any way that I see CCP as lazy quite the opposite. Nor do I mean to ignore their past failures. I think if they devoted time to it they could get it right. I do understand and respect your arguments.

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#65 - 2016-08-09 15:50:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
What do you mean by killing? My shoot you in the head term was about completely outclassing the competition.

You forgot one thing with Star Citizen and Elite, they are still out there to "kill" EVE. They were/are slowly killing it.


Prove it.

Maybe you could watch some You Tube channels and watch for yourself how they are developing the stuff, exactly where CCP dropped it?
I thought its obvious and everyone interested can see it for themselves. Its not like all our gaming future is determined by only one game and company.

And its crazy to think they will completely clean up all the EVE servers, because this is still different game than other two. But people have moved, they will move, they are moving. In the best option for EVE, they will not log as often as earlier. In the worst option, they will cancel subscription because of the common reasons I see everywhere: not enough time, not worth the money.

EDIT: Its where they are trying to get ahead of games like EVE and Nova even combined. Its more like GTA5 in space. The game I also play.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#66 - 2016-08-09 16:12:58 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
What do you mean by killing? My shoot you in the head term was about completely outclassing the competition.

You forgot one thing with Star Citizen and Elite, they are still out there to "kill" EVE. They were/are slowly killing it.


Prove it.

Maybe you could watch some You Tube channels and watch for yourself how they are developing the stuff, exactly where CCP dropped it?
I thought its obvious and everyone interested can see it for themselves. Its not like all our gaming future is determined by only one game and company.

And its crazy to think they will completely clean up all the EVE servers, because this is still different game than other two. But people have moved, they will move, they are moving. In the best option for EVE, they will not log as often as earlier. In the worst option, they will cancel subscription because of the common reasons I see everywhere: not enough time, not worth the money.



And they will most likely be back like they always do in every other game I mentioned. Because What EVE offers is unique.

EVE players are a real good example of people who don't really know what they want. When Star Trek Online was announced some proclaimed the end of EVE "because STO will let you walk around, and it will control griefing" STO does all that, and EVE is still here, because many of the vocal EVE players who went to play it and swore they would not come back, slinked right back when they realized it was a shallow experience.

many of those people were pve/industrial types who hated "PVP being forced on them" as well as not having an avatar to 'identify with". Yet back to EVE they came despite it not having all those things they thought they wanted. That's because identifying with your avatar is generally unimportant, and the dangers present in EVE gives the experience VALUE that those other games (where you lose little except time) don't generate.

That's why all the talk about SC (A dream) and No Man's Sky (which is turning out to be a joke) won't matter either. Because , again, people don't understand what is important to them. You seem to be one of them.



BTW, "EVE is dying because these other games are coming so CCP better give me WiS" is simply a combination of anxiety ("I don't want my game to shut down") and manipulation ("this will scare CCP into giving me what I already want). Most of us can see right through it, which is why there is all this opposition to even the idea of WiS. If you WiS types could stop the counter-productive scare mongering, you might make some progress.
Noroswen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2016-08-09 16:32:03 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


BTW, "EVE is dying because these other games are coming so CCP better give me WiS" is simply a combination of anxiety ("I don't want my game to shut down") and manipulation ("this will scare CCP into giving me what I already want). Most of us can see right through it, which is why there is all this opposition to even the idea of WiS. If you WiS types could stop the counter-productive scare mongering, you might make some progress.


I realize this was not directed at me but I never used that as a basis for my argument.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#68 - 2016-08-09 16:52:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Quote:
BTW, "EVE is dying because these other games are coming so CCP better give me WiS" is simply a combination of anxiety ("I don't want my game to shut down") and manipulation ("this will scare CCP into giving me what I already want). Most of us can see right through it, which is why there is all this opposition to even the idea of WiS. If you WiS types could stop the counter-productive scare mongering, you might make some progress.

You are not able to see thru what motivates me. I will clear this issue.

I have 4 years more of training time in EVE. I can stay logged out for 4 years, until my subscription runs out here. I already bookmarked myself in the future of EVE, that I will be here, at least from time to time.

But I am afraid I will really have to move to other game and not log on for months because EVE as good as it is, could not stand up to my expectations. Community is already not something what keeps me here. Maybe some particular players only. You can stay playing it, but its not for everyone and your friends will stop at some point and move elsewhere. If you would try to stay, you will feel lonely in MMORPG. SC with its multiplayer allows stil for a group play.

I am trying to rise above the usual "naah, meh" stance that would result in marginalization of players like me and in effect EVE in long term, and I present my oppinion for how to fight for brighter future of EVE and CCP. This WiS thing is not new at all, and it will never worn out.
So its not like I am here because I dont care. If I woudnt care, you would not see me here posting this stuff over and over.

And I dont think CCP is not scared already.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#69 - 2016-08-09 17:10:53 UTC
Beta Maoye
#70 - 2016-08-09 17:13:35 UTC
WIS will be a waste of development time and money if it is created just for the purpose of 'walking' in station. It will be abandoned and deserted quickly if it has no reason for players to use. The WIS concept has to be embedded in a larger game plan and framework in order to be meaningful.

Nova is supposed to be a decent FPS game that should be stand on its own feet. While the primary goal is to create a successful FPS game, the secondary goal should be the readiness to merge with the EVE world. I hope there will be some high level plans in the beginning for both worlds such as shared market, space station combat, naval boarding combat and planetary lading operation.

CCP please don't forget the lessons from DUST. Don't let those obstacles that prevent DUST from merging with EVE to get in the way of Nova. I look forward to shoot inside a Citadel.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#71 - 2016-08-09 17:22:27 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Quote:
BTW, "EVE is dying because these other games are coming so CCP better give me WiS" is simply a combination of anxiety ("I don't want my game to shut down") and manipulation ("this will scare CCP into giving me what I already want). Most of us can see right through it, which is why there is all this opposition to even the idea of WiS. If you WiS types could stop the counter-productive scare mongering, you might make some progress.

You are not able to see thru what motivates me. I will clear this issue.

I have 4 years more of training time in EVE. I can stay logged out for 4 years, until my subscription runs out here. I already bookmarked myself in the future of EVE, that I will be here, at least from time to time.

But I am afraid I will really have to move to other game and not log on for months because EVE as good as it is, could not stand up to my expectations. Community is already not something what keeps me here. Maybe some particular players only. You can stay playing it, but its not for everyone and your friends will stop at some point and move elsewhere. If you would try to stay, you will feel lonely in MMORPG. SC with its multiplayer allows stil for a group play.


Found and highlighted not only your problem, but the central problem with most people on this forum dissatisfied weith EVE (but somehow not enough to leave). It comes down to expectations. I like EVE because I don't expect it to be anything other than what it is. You dislike it because it's not what you THINK it should be.

That's a personal issue and no one can do anything about that. But I bring it up because it proves what is for me a central point in many discussions I've had here: The problem isn't the game, it's you. I'm enjoying the hell out of EVE.

As for 'feeling lonely', well, speak for yourself I've met many people in EVE, i've made some friendships with people who used to play and no longer play, I play other games with a couple of them, Planetside, League of Legends and World of Warships.

There is nothing wrong with those other space games, but they can't give me what EVe gives me, which is FREEDOM from undue restraint (even though I don't gank and scam and what-not, I like knowing I could if I wanted without some nanny arsed game GM jumping my bones for it like you'd get in those other games). I have no need to be some space here with a machine gun fighting deck to deck on some space fighter.


Quote:

I am trying to rise above the usual "naah, meh" stance that would result in marginalization of players like me and in effect EVE in long term, and I present my oppinion for how to fight for brighter future of EVE and CCP. This WiS thing is not new at all, and it will never worn out.
So its not like I am here because I dont care. If I woudnt care, you would not see me here posting this stuff over and over.

And I dont think CCP is not scared already.


Any marginalization is self inflicted. WiS was a dumb idea that CCP tried and abandoned in favor of a leaner, more focused experience. That's what they should keep doing, not pursue some fantasy "I want to walk to a virtual bar and drink a drink I can't taste" WiS stuff.
Noroswen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2016-08-09 17:23:48 UTC
Beta Maoye wrote:
WIS will be a waste of development time and money if it is created just for the purpose of 'walking' in station. It will be abandoned and deserted quickly if it has no reason for players to use. The WIS concept has to be embedded in a larger game plan and framework in order to be meaningful.

Nova is supposed to be a decent FPS game that should be stand on its own feet. While the primary goal is to create a successful FPS game, the secondary goal should be the readiness to merge with the EVE world. I hope there will be some high level plans in the beginning for both worlds such as shared market, space station combat, naval boarding combat and planetary lading operation.

CCP please don't forget the lessons from DUST. Don't let those obstacles that prevent DUST from merging with EVE to get in the way of Nova. I look forward to shoot inside a Citadel.


Well put. Which leads me back to my original post. Why not use the assets which have already been created, both in the FPS realm and with the carbon engines and use them to create a WiS capacity which has potential to enhance eve. Judging from the look of CQ a mass effect inspired game could be made viable and without a lot of bells and whistles.
Noroswen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2016-08-09 17:33:29 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Quote:
BTW, "EVE is dying because these other games are coming so CCP better give me WiS" is simply a combination of anxiety ("I don't want my game to shut down") and manipulation ("this will scare CCP into giving me what I already want). Most of us can see right through it, which is why there is all this opposition to even the idea of WiS. If you WiS types could stop the counter-productive scare mongering, you might make some progress.

You are not able to see thru what motivates me. I will clear this issue.

I have 4 years more of training time in EVE. I can stay logged out for 4 years, until my subscription runs out here. I already bookmarked myself in the future of EVE, that I will be here, at least from time to time.

But I am afraid I will really have to move to other game and not log on for months because EVE as good as it is, could not stand up to my expectations. Community is already not something what keeps me here. Maybe some particular players only. You can stay playing it, but its not for everyone and your friends will stop at some point and move elsewhere. If you would try to stay, you will feel lonely in MMORPG. SC with its multiplayer allows stil for a group play.


Found and highlighted not only your problem, but the central problem with most people on this forum dissatisfied weith EVE (but somehow not enough to leave). It comes down to expectations. I like EVE because I don't expect it to be anything other than what it is. You dislike it because it's not what you THINK it should be.

That's a personal issue and no one can do anything about that. But I bring it up because it proves what is for me a central point in many discussions I've had here: The problem isn't the game, it's you. I'm enjoying the hell out of EVE.

As for 'feeling lonely', well, speak for yourself I've met many people in EVE, i've made some friendships with people who used to play and no longer play, I play other games with a couple of them, Planetside, League of Legends and World of Warships.

There is nothing wrong with those other space games, but they can't give me what EVe gives me, which is FREEDOM from undue restraint (even though I don't gank and scam and what-not, I like knowing I could if I wanted without some nanny arsed game GM jumping my bones for it like you'd get in those other games). I have no need to be some space here with a machine gun fighting deck to deck on some space fighter.


Quote:

I am trying to rise above the usual "naah, meh" stance that would result in marginalization of players like me and in effect EVE in long term, and I present my oppinion for how to fight for brighter future of EVE and CCP. This WiS thing is not new at all, and it will never worn out.
So its not like I am here because I dont care. If I woudnt care, you would not see me here posting this stuff over and over.

And I dont think CCP is not scared already.


Any marginalization is self inflicted. WiS was a dumb idea that CCP tried and abandoned in favor of a leaner, more focused experience. That's what they should keep doing, not pursue some fantasy "I want to walk to a virtual bar and drink a drink I can't taste" WiS stuff.


I think you've inadvertently validated why there is support for this. I am not personally dissatisfied with eve nor do I believe everyone who wants good WiS is. But there really isn't another game to go to which offers what eve does. Spaceships can be had in lots of games. But the kind of freedom Eve offers cannot be found else where.

No one is trying to threaten the type of experience you have when you play eve. What they are trying to do is expand that experience, not for you the person who has no interest in it, but for the people who do. Because as you pointed out that undue restraint is what makes Eve special. So by taking that quality and applying it to WiS content which is also leaner and focused you create a better game.

While I am not one of the Eve is dieing crowd Eve has survived this long précises because it is a game which constantly seeks to improve. Even if it has failed at this previously. The eve you play now is not Eve in 2003. So who is to say that well designed WiS content wouldn't further the game to be something more in the future?
Beta Maoye
#74 - 2016-08-09 17:49:47 UTC
Noroswen wrote:
Beta Maoye wrote:
WIS will be a waste of development time and money if it is created just for the purpose of 'walking' in station. It will be abandoned and deserted quickly if it has no reason for players to use. The WIS concept has to be embedded in a larger game plan and framework in order to be meaningful.

Nova is supposed to be a decent FPS game that should be stand on its own feet. While the primary goal is to create a successful FPS game, the secondary goal should be the readiness to merge with the EVE world. I hope there will be some high level plans in the beginning for both worlds such as shared market, space station combat, naval boarding combat and planetary lading operation.

CCP please don't forget the lessons from DUST. Don't let those obstacles that prevent DUST from merging with EVE to get in the way of Nova. I look forward to shoot inside a Citadel.


Well put. Which leads me back to my original post. Why not use the assets which have already been created, both in the FPS realm and with the carbon engines and use them to create a WiS capacity which has potential to enhance eve. Judging from the look of CQ a mass effect inspired game could be made viable and without a lot of bells and whistles.


I don't know about the engine things. However, I noticed, apart from technical challenges, other obstacles includes undue influences from stakeholders inside and outside the game. Human factors are often more difficult to be tackled than technical problems. I don't want Nova to follow the ****** tracks of DUST.
Lex Gabinia
Res Repetundae
#75 - 2016-08-09 17:58:39 UTC
Noroswen wrote:
I think you've inadvertently validated why there is support for this. I am not personally dissatisfied with eve nor do I believe everyone who wants good WiS is. But there really isn't another game to go to which offers what eve does. Spaceships can be had in lots of games. But the kind of freedom Eve offers cannot be found else where.

No one is trying to threaten the type of experience you have when you play eve. What they are trying to do is expand that experience, not for you the person who has no interest in it, but for the people who do. Because as you pointed out that undue restraint is what makes Eve special. So by taking that quality and applying it to WiS content which is also leaner and focused you create a better game.

While I am not one of the Eve is dieing crowd Eve has survived this long précises because it is a game which constantly seeks to improve. Even if it has failed at this previously. The eve you play now is not Eve in 2003. So who is to say that well designed WiS content wouldn't further the game to be something more in the future?

How does the WiS content influence the greater EVE universe? It seems to me it becomes a game within a game that kind of stands alone as a half measure FPS. Which leads me to ask why we need an FPS wrapped inside a spaceship game.

I also beta tested and played Earth and Beyond so I've experienced the *get out of ship to retrieve missions" playstyle. It really became just a time sink after the first few times.

To be clear, I am not against WiS just on principal either. It just seems we might end up with a split universe if done poorly.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#76 - 2016-08-09 18:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Quote:
Found and highlighted not only your problem, but the central problem with most people on this forum dissatisfied weith EVE (but somehow not enough to leave). It comes down to expectations. I like EVE because I don't expect it to be anything other than what it is. You dislike it because it's not what you THINK it should be.


First, why we dont leave? You seem not to realize why people could stay here?
Be serious, think.
Friends, spaceships, actual features, many others....

Expectations.

You know its that some people had expectations all the time they were playing EVE? Time when they played Elite on 8-bit computer? Its all about the expectations that can be fulfilled.

And I don not dislike the game. Stop with this counterpropaganda thing, its fanboy stuff. I like it, but my expectations were always greater but EVE was always more closer to it than everything else. But situation is changing. Expectations that earlier could not be fulfilled, will be. Those who dont adapt with their product, will be put to their quickly forming niche inside niche.

I know some creatures that still after millions of years stay in their niche and does not evolve. Lovely.Cool

PS: its this crustacean on the left.
Noroswen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2016-08-09 18:12:19 UTC
Lex Gabinia wrote:

How does the WiS content influence the greater EVE universe? It seems to me it becomes a game within a game that kind of stands alone as a half measure FPS. Which leads me to ask why we need an FPS wrapped inside a spaceship game.

I also beta tested and played Earth and Beyond so I've experienced the *get out of ship to retrieve missions" playstyle. It really became just a time sink after the first few times.

To be clear, I am not against WiS just on principal either. It just seems we might end up with a split universe if done poorly.


A fair question. I suppose my opinion on it comes down to how I have always viewed eve. Remember that whole Butterfly effects video they did way back when? A bit over the top of course but still some truth. Consider the scenario, someone locks down a supercap. They are logically going to put out a call in their corporation who will undoubtedly flock like moths to the flame. Maybe the owner has some friends as well and the situation potentially escalates.

It's happened to most of us at some point right?

So who's to say a well designed WiS system couldn't expand this? I never played Earth and Beyond myself so I cannot comment as to the time sink nature of it. I also don't want to get bogged down in potential mechanics because that discussion could go on forever.

As to why you would want the WiS in the first place it simply comes down to flexibility. Many people like Nana Skalski have no interest in it and that is fine. It seems though that others do want the ability to disembark do something, Embark and do something else.

I know there are purists out there but as I stated earlier Eve today is not the Eve of yesterday. That is why Eve is still around. A well made WiS may help it survive and be a better Eve of tomorrow.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#78 - 2016-08-09 18:25:05 UTC
Quote:
As to why you would want the WiS in the first place it simply comes down to flexibility. Many people like Nana Skalski have no interest in it and that is fine.

Shocked
You have mistaken me with someone else.

And if SC will flop on its **** and crush its skull on the gutter (not really happening at that point), I will not cry, because I will still have EVE. Cool
Noroswen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2016-08-09 18:39:33 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Quote:
As to why you would want the WiS in the first place it simply comes down to flexibility. Many people like Nana Skalski have no interest in it and that is fine.

Shocked
You have mistaken me with someone else.

And if SC will flop on its **** and crush its skull on the gutter (not really happening at that point), I will not cry, because I will still have EVE. Cool



You are absolutely right I did, I meant Jenn aSide. My apologies I wasn't paying close enough attention.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#80 - 2016-08-09 18:46:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Quote:
I know there are purists out there but as I stated earlier Eve today is not the Eve of yesterday. That is why Eve is still around. A well made WiS may help it survive and be a better Eve of tomorrow.

It was when EVE got the greatest updates and hype was the greatest when the amount of players was rising, there were talks about WIS, planetary flight, and many other things, and CCP assured us we will get there. No one was thinking it will be like that, with Monocles and other stuff that was left behind, and this demo on earlier fanfest we got, was only making people feel cheated. Like in "I gave my monies for this stuff? CCP didn deliver. And they want even more monies now?"

Its a long story why they needed the monies from monocles in the first place, for PSSHHHH WoD perhaps?...

Who really knows...