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Eve WiS

Author
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#41 - 2016-08-09 13:09:44 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Hengle Teron wrote:
It's like people want some completely different game...


yeah i know its like buying a racing car then thinking mmm this would be better if it could go offroad too

Why not. Cool


that would be better if i could go sailing with it

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#42 - 2016-08-09 13:10:12 UTC
Arkoth 24 wrote:
CCP needs to be really, really fearlessdelusional and unwilling to learn from the past to implement it.


Fixed that for you.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#43 - 2016-08-09 13:11:20 UTC
Not this crap again...




At least it's not another ganker whine thread.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#44 - 2016-08-09 13:13:11 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Not this crap again...




At least it's not another ganker whine thread.



It's a part of the EVE Forum Triumvirate though. Ganking, afk cloaking, and WiS. Three Immortal Horses that can never be beaten enough to die..
Arkoth 24
Doomheim
#45 - 2016-08-09 13:13:57 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
EVE is an old game, tacking new crap on has never worked, even seemingly simple stuff like Citadels seemed to have stretched them.

Citadels are ugly. Really.
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2016-08-09 13:32:29 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Quote:
They need to learn how to not throw it away for console, mobile, VR, and other "fast cash" projects. If they need easy cash - kick out the guy who's recoloring same dressing gowns for years, and make some new cool outfits for cash store.

No. Its something else than that. Its not Dev's, its managament. They are only doing their job. Someone else thinks in what direction it have to go financially.

No! It was the Dev's fault. The management had the vision it was the Dev's that couldn't provide more Psssssssssss
Noroswen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2016-08-09 13:32:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Hengle Teron wrote:
It's like people want some completely different game...


yeah i know its like buying a racing car then thinking mmm this would be better if it could go offroad too


IMO it's that some people are never really satisfied. I've experienced the exact same thing in other games.

-When i played Mechwarrior 3 and Mechwarrior 4 and (briefly) Mechwarrior Online it was "I want Elementals (armored Infantry), I want tanks, I want dropships and aerospace fighters!!"

-When I played World of Tanks it was "This game could use some infantry"

-When I played X-Wing vs Tie fighter it was "I wish i could land and have a lgiht sabre fight" (plot twist, when SWG and SWTOR came out the XvT guys generally refused to play them lol).

-I've even heard off people complaining in world of warships that "marines landing on stuff" would make that game 'better".


Whats funny and sad is that people acknowledge that CCP has only really done one thing well (spaceships) while at the exact same time saying that CCP needs to add walking around to the game, despite the fact that it's been tried and abandoned. What makes them think CCP would do better this time? EVE is an old game, tacking new crap on has never worked, even seemingly simple stuff like Citadels seemed to have stretched them.


Well the idea that releasing a game is a kind of fire and forget product is a little dated. Asking for improvements or new features to make the game, well, bigger? More encompassing? In-depth? I'm unsure of what the right word would be, is just a natural desire of gamers to have an immersive experience. Practicality of such desires aside of course, I don't think it is a bad thing to want that kind of experience.

As for CCP, aside from Dust they really haven't done anything but spaceships. World of Darkness never really existed, Valkyrie is space ships of a different bent, and Gunjack is well in space at least?

For those who see this as another WiS thread, which it is, my point is that even if Nova becomes a good shooter it will never be anything special. Taking that energy and building ambulatory content can likely be monetized and improve your flagship product. Additionally the Eve shooter which they are determined to make does not have to be an FPS. There are other options which can fit well with their existing products.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#48 - 2016-08-09 13:33:39 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Hengle Teron wrote:
It's like people want some completely different game...


yeah i know its like buying a racing car then thinking mmm this would be better if it could go offroad too

Why not. Cool


that would be better if i could go sailing with it

Everything you need and even more. Lol

Yes, i would prefer that over everything else.
Hengle Teron
Rorquals Anonymous
Two Maidens One Chalice
#49 - 2016-08-09 13:49:13 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Hengle Teron wrote:
It's like people want some completely different game...


yeah i know its like buying a racing car then thinking mmm this would be better if it could go offroad too

Why not. Cool


that would be better if i could go sailing with it

Everything you need and even more. Lol

Yes, i would prefer that over everything else.

I would question its sports car capabilities though.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#50 - 2016-08-09 13:59:58 UTC
Hengle Teron wrote:

I would question its sports car capabilities though.

But it still have this powerful engine. And you cant outrun the projectiles. Cool
Avanda Redblade
Deep Space Coalition
A Class Apart
#51 - 2016-08-09 14:02:57 UTC
I approve this product and/or service.

(please help support the off-topic quotes of the past)
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#52 - 2016-08-09 14:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
*wiped what i wrote and cant be bothered retyping

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#53 - 2016-08-09 14:08:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Noroswen wrote:


Well the idea that releasing a game is a kind of fire and forget product is a little dated. Asking for improvements or new features to make the game, well, bigger? More encompassing? In-depth? I'm unsure of what the right word would be, is just a natural desire of gamers to have an immersive experience. Practicality of such desires aside of course, I don't think it is a bad thing to want that kind of experience.


"Gamers" is a generalization. What I like isn't what others like and vice versa. You have these pie in the sky "I want everything, all in one game!" gamers and you have people like a lot of us EVE players who say "do the one thing you do well, and screw the rest". You could call folks like that 'minimalists' for lack of a better word.

EVE is a game enjoyed by such minimalists (it is 'no-nonsense' to it's core, that what I love about it), and less so by the 'immersion' types (like role players, there is a reason the role play community is so small in EVE compared to other games like SWTOR which has whole role play servers).

Not everyone wants to be 'encompassed' or immersed in a game. Mainstream MMO players DO want to get lost in their games, want to suspend disbelief for a bit and become their avatars. EVE attracts the people it does (and turns off mainstream MMO players) not because it's hard, but more because it's a less immersive "chess game with spaceships" experience.

The WiS crowd (most of which are role player types to begin with) want WiS because it feeds more into what they already want. Those of us who actually like what EVE is now understand that WiS would dilute the game in an unfavorable way. Personally I think those people who want to be immersed in some kind of fantasy situation where they can pretend to be some guy in the future are better off playing Star Trek Online or waiting for a finished Star Citizen rather than expecting CCP to foolishly modify their game away from it's already winning (for more than a decade) formula.
Noroswen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2016-08-09 14:21:53 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Noroswen wrote:


Well the idea that releasing a game is a kind of fire and forget product is a little dated. Asking for improvements or new features to make the game, well, bigger? More encompassing? In-depth? I'm unsure of what the right word would be, is just a natural desire of gamers to have an immersive experience. Practicality of such desires aside of course, I don't think it is a bad thing to want that kind of experience.


"Gamers" is a generalization. What I like isn't what others like and vice versa. You have these pie in the sky "I want everything, all in one game!" gamers and you have people like a lot of us EVE players who say "do the one thing you do well, and screw the rest". You could call folks like that 'minimalists' for lack of a better word.

EVE is a game enjoyed by such minimalists (it is 'no-nonsense' to it's core, that what I love about it), and less so by the 'immersion' types (like role players, there is a reason the role play community is so small in EVE compared to other games like SWTOR which has whole role play servers).

Not everyone wants to be 'encompassed' or immersed in a game. Mainstream MMO players DO want to get lost in their games, want to suspend disbelief for a bit and become their avatars. EVE attracts the people it does (and turns off mainstream MMO players) not because it's hard, but more because it's a less immersive "chess game with spaceships" experience.

The WiS crowd (most of which are role player types to begin with) want WiS because it feeds more into what they already want. Those of us who actually like what EVE is now understand that WiS would dilute the game in an unfavorable way. Personally I think those people who want to be immersed in some kind of fantasy situation where they can pretend to be some guy in the future are better off playing Star Trek Online or waiting for a finished Star Citizen rather than expecting CCP to foolishly modify their game away from it's already winning (for more than a decade) formula.



That is a fair assessment, the term gamers is a generalization. However I use the term immersion perhaps incorrectly. Eve is an immersive experience. No not in the sense that Star Citizen is with it's physics and first person depth. Eve is immersive in a different way, it is very much a world unto itself. It has politics, economics, its own rules and is dynamic. I cannot think of a better way to describe it than immersion.

I hesitate to agree with your minimalist notion though. Eve is anything but minimal. There are any number of different ways to play this game with none of them being wrong. So the idea of adding another layer doesn't seem to me to be the sole domain of role players. Especially if this new layer is given the same kind of approach in terms of variety which the rest of eve has.

Essentially I reject the notion that well done WiS content would dilute the game. Rather I think it would enhance it.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#55 - 2016-08-09 14:37:12 UTC
Noroswen wrote:



That is a fair assessment, the term gamers is a generalization. However I use the term immersion perhaps incorrectly. Eve is an immersive experience. No not in the sense that Star Citizen is with it's physics and first person depth. Eve is immersive in a different way, it is very much a world unto itself. It has politics, economics, its own rules and is dynamic. I cannot think of a better way to describe it than immersion.


Immersion is relative. Most gamers wouldn't call EVE immersive, mainly because of the lack of avatar gameplay.

Quote:

I hesitate to agree with your minimalist notion though. Eve is anything but minimal. There are any number of different ways to play this game with none of them being wrong. So the idea of adding another layer doesn't seem to me to be the sole domain of role players. Especially if this new layer is given the same kind of approach in terms of variety which the rest of eve has.


If there is so much to do, so many ways to play, what is the jsutification of another 'layer'?

The desire to see another layer added ignores history. CCP tried it. They failed. the reaosn they failed has a lot to do with hubris, but IMO it has a lot more with losing focus.

EVE is good imo because it focuses on one main thing (space ships) and every.single.other.thing in the game (except Project Discovery, which is a special case) revolves around that one main thing. Everything you can do in a station while docked is still a matter of space ships. WiS dilutes EVE by making the game about something other than space ships. While people are screwing around in a station they aren't in space.

EVE has enough non-space gameplay (the markets and production), it does not need more.

Quote:

Essentially I reject the notion that well done WiS content would dilute the game. Rather I think it would enhance it.


Anything that takes any focus away from spaceships hurts EVE. Again, I think that people who want a more complete (less focused imo) sci fi experience should look for that in STO or SC rather than advocating CCP do something they have proven they can't.

CCP has trouble making SPACESHIP pve content (see "Drifter incursions", which don't exist anymore), what makes you think they could get Wis right?
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#56 - 2016-08-09 14:38:55 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
As much as I like the idea of a fully fledged WIS in Eve.. I cant see it being technically possible without it turning into another huge dev time consuming star citizen type project with a release date of 2030.

One thing many advocates are forgetting.. EVE is not run on a fps engine. You cant create fps/avatar exploration content easily within the eve client.


However....

What could be done.. fairly easily and without taking significant dev time away from space.

an Expanded CQ

- a shelf to display heads of pvp kills.
- a trophy rack for 1000 pvp kills, 5000 missions run, x number of ore mined, modules/ships produced etc etc
- some content on the screens like a monthly in character eve news show on player content in game and how to get involved.

Essentially CQ could help memorialize the playing experience and encourage players to join in player run activities.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |

Serene Repose
#57 - 2016-08-09 14:49:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
All I can say, all you "imaginers", let us know when your new game releases. And, good luck with the crowd funding!

(Or is this something "they" can do...for you?)


Doc Fury wrote:
Not this crap again...
At least it's not another ganker whine thread.

Or yet another post whining about whiners....no, wait....

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Noroswen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2016-08-09 14:57:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Noroswen
Jenn aSide wrote:
Noroswen wrote:


Immersion is relative. Most gamers wouldn't call EVE immersive, mainly because of the lack of avatar gameplay.


I agree it is very relative which was my earlier point that simply because eve lacks some sort of realistic physics does not make it any less immersive

Quote:


If there is so much to do, so many ways to play, what is the jsutification of another 'layer'?

The desire to see another layer added ignores history. CCP tried it. They failed. the reaosn they failed has a lot to do with hubris, but IMO it has a lot more with losing focus.

EVE is good imo because it focuses on one main thing (space ships) and every.single.other.thing in the game (except Project Discovery, which is a special case) revolves around that one main thing. Everything you can do in a station while docked is still a matter of space ships. WiS dilutes EVE by making the game about something other than space ships. While people are screwing around in a station they aren't in space.

EVE has enough non-space gameplay (the markets and production), it does not need more.


I fail to see where they have really tried it. CQ got a bad reputation because it was both unfinished, and lets face it immediately after it was released the community lit the game on fire due to overprices items and other scandals. Other than to round out CQ they haven't touched it since (Rightfully because they where fixing other things which they had neglected).

Lets say we don't consider that for a moment though, if you fail at something the first time you should give up?



Quote:


Anything that takes any focus away from spaceships hurts EVE. Again, I think that people who want a more complete (less focused imo) sci fi experience should look for that in STO or SC rather than advocating CCP do something they have proven they can't.

CCP has trouble making SPACESHIP pve content (see "Drifter incursions", which don't exist anymore), what makes you think they could get Wis right?



Eve's strength isn't Spaceships. Yes they are the bulk of the game play but take out many of the things which truly separate eve from other games and the Spaceships in Eve are kind of unimpressive. So that additional layer could add to the things which make Eve great, which I do not believe is the Spaceships.

As for CCP I cannot defend their track record. They **** up. I do not believe though that mistakes are grounds for giving up. Frankly the notion that CCP has screwed up something in the past so why bother trying again is a bit, lazy.

Additionally CCP has the resources. They are going to be devoted to creating an FPS experience. If that experience is going to exist why not do it in a manner which compliments its origins instead of breaks away from them?
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#59 - 2016-08-09 14:59:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
When we compare EVE and others like Elite and SC, you can see that its all a battle of APC's rather than who drives porsche and who HMMWV.

They try to push for as much features/firepower as possible to dictate the conditions on battlefield. And even when CCP is standing strong with EVE, they are constantly shoot at and their vehicle is looking less impressive with every piece of stuff added to the rivals.

I remember when in CSM notes someone started with asking what car EVE is, like they perceive it.

I would rather ask them: where do you want to go with that campaign and with that vehicle, because there are others out there ready to shoot you in the head.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#60 - 2016-08-09 15:05:46 UTC
Noroswen wrote:


Additionally CCP has the resources. They are going to be devoted to creating an FPS experience. If that experience is going to exist why not do it in a manner which compliments its origins instead of breaks away from them?


They are creating a stand alone FPS game, not one built on the bones of an old game.

Have you not noticed that every time CCP introduces new content other things get broken? Where you around for the 1st WiS failure? The old saying that "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it". CCP is a company with one big product, while you think they are being lazy, I know they are being smart by refraining from screwing up that main product.

CCP almost failed several times screwing with EVE (and several more by ignoring EVE altogether). Now they are doing it right, letting EVE be the flagship and limiting their expansive tendencies to in universe (rather than in game) properties

. Again, there are other games if what you want is walking around.