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CNR with cruise missiles - advice for lvl 4 mission
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#21 - 2016-08-17 05:13:16 UTC
Cyclone Organic wrote:
One more question, I was wondering If HACs (such as Cerberus or Sacrilege) are good options for lvl 4 missions.


You can get 750 DPS kinetic out of a Tengu with pretty good damage application, a good omni tank, and great mobility - so on the whole it does pretty well. However, it's never been truly great at missions.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Viktor Amarr
#22 - 2016-08-17 05:49:34 UTC
Cyclone Organic wrote:
Then why so many people are fond of HACs and Tengu? Are they really superior to BCs given this much lower DPS, especially when CNR could also do applicable damage to cruise class efficiently?


Because years ago the Tengu was better, mostly because HML wasn't nerfed (although even back then I wasn't a fan of it). The majority of EVE players don't base their choices on facts or research, they simply regurgitate tired old and mistaken memes like "caldari sucks at pvp", "missiles suck at pvp", "caldari for PVE", "solo pvp is dead" etc etc they heard from other uninformed meme spouting clueless people. On top of that there's the "if it's expensive it's cool" nonsense, where people for some reason enjoy having bling ships regardless of them working well or not.

In short, "people are dumb and don't use rational thinking".
Cyclone Organic
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2016-08-17 15:33:13 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cyclone Organic wrote:
One more question, I was wondering If HACs (such as Cerberus or Sacrilege) are good options for lvl 4 missions.


You can get 750 DPS kinetic out of a Tengu with pretty good damage application, a good omni tank, and great mobility - so on the whole it does pretty well. However, it's never been truly great at missions.

-Liang


Yes, so does Cerberus. The great mobility, which is also known to all, is not all for missions. Actually this is what have confused me a lot:


  • For those missions we have to kill all rats, I don't think the agility of Tengu or HACs will help us since we need to clear every single ship to complete the mission anyway. And the overall DPS really matters a lot.
  • And for those missions which can be completed by blitzing some certain targets, my idea is, CNR is a better option than Tengu or HACs.

    1. Higher DPS on average for all damage types means rats have less time to repair = less Effective DMG needed to kill one
    2. It usually takes 10s for a cruise missile to hit the target from 105KM away, but yourself don't need to move a single step. So It doesn't make too much difference between cruise class ships and BCs in the perspective of time efficiency.

  • The only case, personally speaking, in which Tengu and HACs are superior to BCs, is when there are multiple pockets and ac-gates are at several KMs away. Definitely a AB fit cruise ship is faster than a BC. And don't forget the MJD, over 100KM is a disaster for BCs.


Generally, I will say CNR with cruise missile is superior to Tengu and HACs, and even to Golem in some cases. But what I have learned from forums and Reddit is that most people think BCs are for new players with limited SP, while Tengu and HACs are really better than huge, dump mea for gankerst. The last post about this debate I can find is on 2015 Jul, maybe It's prior to the patch in which HML is nerfed?
Cyclone Organic
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2016-08-17 15:50:18 UTC
Viktor Amarr wrote:

Because years ago the Tengu was better, mostly because HML wasn't nerfed (although even back then I wasn't a fan of it). The majority of EVE players don't base their choices on facts or research, they simply regurgitate tired old and mistaken memes like "caldari sucks at pvp", "missiles suck at pvp", "caldari for PVE", "solo pvp is dead" etc etc they heard from other uninformed meme spouting clueless people.


This might be true. Maybe It's my culture background that concerns me. I am from Asia and in my homeland, If everyone agrees with one opinion, that means something: Even that point is not true, but there should be some reasons behind it.

To prove my idea, I'd always prefer to speak with data. I used EFT and other fitting tools since I don't have enough skills for both of these ships.

I posted this topic to see If there is anything important I forget to calculate.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#25 - 2016-08-17 17:17:18 UTC
Cyclone Organic wrote:
Viktor Amarr wrote:

Because years ago the Tengu was better, mostly because HML wasn't nerfed (although even back then I wasn't a fan of it). The majority of EVE players don't base their choices on facts or research, they simply regurgitate tired old and mistaken memes like "caldari sucks at pvp", "missiles suck at pvp", "caldari for PVE", "solo pvp is dead" etc etc they heard from other uninformed meme spouting clueless people.


This might be true. Maybe It's my culture background that concerns me. I am from Asia and in my homeland, If everyone agrees with one opinion, that means something: Even that point is not true, but there should be some reasons behind it.

To prove my idea, I'd always prefer to speak with data. I used EFT and other fitting tools since I don't have enough skills for both of these ships.

I posted this topic to see If there is anything important I forget to calculate.


I'm not sure how you are getting 750 DPS out of a Cerb, especially with the damage application to actually pull furies off? Here's kinda the direction I was leaning with a Tengu, and my best guess for what a high DPS Cerb looks like.

[Tengu, PVE Tengu]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

10MN Afterburner II
Domination Medium Shield Booster
Republic Fleet Medium Cap Battery
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers

Implants:
HG Crystals, HM-705, GP-905, TN-905, RL-1005

DPS: 788
Tank: ~350 vs Sansha/Blood, ~750 vs Guri

[Cerberus, PVE]
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System

10MN Afterburner II
Dread Guristas Medium Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

DPS: 710
Tank: ~200 vs Sansha/Blood, ~500 vs Guri

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#26 - 2016-08-17 17:25:15 UTC
Cyclone Organic wrote:

It usually takes 10s for a cruise missile to hit the target from 105KM away, but yourself don't need to move a single step. So It doesn't make too much difference between cruise class ships and BCs in the perspective of time efficiency.


This is actually a great reason not to use a MJD cruise ship. Painter cycle time, counting volleys, and delayed damage. Ugh - it's just too much mental work to get efficient missioning out of a setup like that. I'd rather just face tank it and minimize missile travel time.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kamikaze jihawt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2016-08-17 18:29:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kamikaze jihawt
I haven't tried it lately, but is it possible to fit that CNR with torps instead? Torps seem to melt face faster than cruises. Why would you use cruise missiles? If you ask me, I would try to get into the Golem asap. Here is my Golem setup, and don't laugh because I run into a lot of Blood Raiders.

Lows:
4 Caldari Navy BCS

Mids:
Gist X X-Large Shield Booster
T2 Boost Amplifier
Pithum A Invulnerabililty field
T2 Target Painter x2
MJD
Heavy Cap Booster

Highs:
T2 Topedoe Launchers x4
Tractor Beams x3
Bastion Module

Rigs:
Catalyst Rigor
EM screen(gives extra EM resist)

T2 Warriors x5
T2 Hobgoblins x5

With the longer range torps I can hit 48km out, 66km in Bastion mode. It seems like I get mid 30's to low 40's with the shorter ranged torps.....
Kamikaze jihawt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2016-08-17 18:45:39 UTC
Actually what I didn't take into account really in regards to a CNR is that it might not work with Torps too well I guess because the Bastion Module really does increase the range on those torps. Not sure though, because I think the CNR has 3 slots for rigs instead of two, and you can get the rigs that increase velocity and fuel to compensate. Most missions I have been in I either start in range of all ships. If not, careful use of the MJD gets me in range rather quickly.
Cyclone Organic
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2016-08-17 19:43:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cyclone Organic wrote:
Viktor Amarr wrote:

Because years ago the Tengu was better, mostly because HML wasn't nerfed (although even back then I wasn't a fan of it). The majority of EVE players don't base their choices on facts or research, they simply regurgitate tired old and mistaken memes like "caldari sucks at pvp", "missiles suck at pvp", "caldari for PVE", "solo pvp is dead" etc etc they heard from other uninformed meme spouting clueless people.


This might be true. Maybe It's my culture background that concerns me. I am from Asia and in my homeland, If everyone agrees with one opinion, that means something: Even that point is not true, but there should be some reasons behind it.

To prove my idea, I'd always prefer to speak with data. I used EFT and other fitting tools since I don't have enough skills for both of these ships.

I posted this topic to see If there is anything important I forget to calculate.


I'm not sure how you are getting 750 DPS out of a Cerb, especially with the damage application to actually pull furies off? Here's kinda the direction I was leaning with a Tengu, and my best guess for what a high DPS Cerb looks like.

[Tengu, PVE Tengu]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

10MN Afterburner II
Domination Medium Shield Booster
Republic Fleet Medium Cap Battery
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers

Implants:
HG Crystals, HM-705, GP-905, TN-905, RL-1005

DPS: 788
Tank: ~350 vs Sansha/Blood, ~750 vs Guri

[Cerberus, PVE]
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System

10MN Afterburner II
Dread Guristas Medium Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

DPS: 710
Tank: ~200 vs Sansha/Blood, ~500 vs Guri

-Liang


Actually It's HAM what I put on my Cerberus.
Cyclone Organic
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2016-08-17 19:45:52 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cyclone Organic wrote:

It usually takes 10s for a cruise missile to hit the target from 105KM away, but yourself don't need to move a single step. So It doesn't make too much difference between cruise class ships and BCs in the perspective of time efficiency.


This is actually a great reason not to use a MJD cruise ship. Painter cycle time, counting volleys, and delayed damage. Ugh - it's just too much mental work to get efficient missioning out of a setup like that. I'd rather just face tank it and minimize missile travel time.

-Liang


Which means in the pure perspective of time efficiency, a CNR would do a better job If manipulated carefully?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#31 - 2016-08-17 20:20:23 UTC
Cyclone Organic wrote:
Actually It's HAM what I put on my Cerberus.


The damage application of rage looks pretty bad, but faction missiles look ok. It's got almost 45km range, which was the lower bound for what made faction torps work back in the day. It... might work? It's at least worth looking at. Try recording your mission completion times and comparing it amongst different ships.

Cyclone Organic wrote:
Which means in the pure perspective of time efficiency, a CNR would do a better job If manipulated carefully?


Generally, I would expect so.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2016-08-18 07:52:22 UTC
Cyclone Organic wrote:
One more question, I was wondering If HACs (such as Cerberus or Sacrilege) are good options for lvl 4 missions.

Though many people talking about the versatility of Tengu and HAC for PVE, I got confused by the EFT statistics of my Cerberus fitting.


Then why so many people are fond of HACs and Tengu? Are they really superior to BCs given this much lower DPS, especially when CNR could also do applicable damage to cruise class efficiently?


You can run L4's in all kinds of ships
Battleships are best, but smaller ships can work too.
With smaller ships you need to pay more attention to wave triggers and group agro
More focused skills help too.

With the Tengu (or any other sub-BS ship) you are trading
- Range for Speed & Manoeuvrability
- Faster small NPC killing for Slower large NPC killing
- Increased 'risk' for longer mission times

For me running L4's in a smaller ship was about getting out of the comfort zone
They were easy in a BS
A single mistake in an AF left you in a pod
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#33 - 2016-08-18 12:09:15 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cyclone Organic wrote:

It usually takes 10s for a cruise missile to hit the target from 105KM away, but yourself don't need to move a single step. So It doesn't make too much difference between cruise class ships and BCs in the perspective of time efficiency.


This is actually a great reason not to use a MJD cruise ship. Painter cycle time, counting volleys, and delayed damage. Ugh - it's just too much mental work to get efficient missioning out of a setup like that. I'd rather just face tank it and minimize missile travel time.

-Liang


Liang dear, you don't need a painter on a CNR. I would suggest one guidance computer, which works at all ranges. And since the cruise missiles buff, they are not terrible anymore, even for pvp.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2016-08-18 12:45:57 UTC
people who are unsure about HAM/torp range, there's rigs and modules that can counteract this yknow

Art of Explosions
Cyclone Organic
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2016-08-18 15:06:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cyclone Organic wrote:
Actually It's HAM what I put on my Cerberus.


The damage application of rage looks pretty bad, but faction missiles look ok. It's got almost 45km range, which was the lower bound for what made faction torps work back in the day. It... might work? It's at least worth looking at. Try recording your mission completion times and comparing it amongst different ships.


-Liang


Well, that's why I posted this topic: I am not able to use any of these ships immediately but I was really confused. So I asked this question in hopes of that someone could have any idea or practice of this debate.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#36 - 2016-08-18 17:58:46 UTC
I am flying Caldari only for a decade now, I don't know anything.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Cyclone Organic
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2016-08-21 15:02:45 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:

You can run L4's in all kinds of ships
Battleships are best, but smaller ships can work too.
With smaller ships you need to pay more attention to wave triggers and group agro
More focused skills help too.

With the Tengu (or any other sub-BS ship) you are trading
- Range for Speed & Manoeuvrability
- Faster small NPC killing for Slower large NPC killing
- Increased 'risk' for longer mission times

For me running L4's in a smaller ship was about getting out of the comfort zone
They were easy in a BS
A single mistake in an AF left you in a pod



Sorry for getting back to you so late.

I'd like to do a test and collect some data about mission running time and efficiency, for different mission contents with various ship classes. But unfortunately I don't have enough SP at this point. I guess one year is needed for me to use all these previous mentioned ships and modules If no other people post the report before I do. We will see.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#38 - 2016-08-21 15:41:51 UTC
Cyclone Organic wrote:
Generally, I will say CNR with cruise missile is superior to Tengu and HACs, and even to Golem in some cases.

Remove the cost as a consideration and there is no place in any mission in the game where a CNR is better than a Golem.
A little bit of speed is the only advantage the CNR has over the Golem, even that is minimized by the 70% reduction of the MJD reactivation delay the Golem gets as a marauder bonus. In every other way you can measure there performance in missions the Golem is the better of the two ships.

Kamikaze jihawt wrote:
I haven't tried it lately, but is it possible to fit that CNR with torps instead? Torps seem to melt face faster than cruises. Why would you use cruise missiles?

Why indeed, better application against smaller targets and range both favor cruise missiles over torps. Yet the torps are better against the BC and BS NPC. So in the end the decision comes down to a personal choice and how you run missions. For most people that full clear the better application to the smaller targets decreases the time required to complete a mission pocket simply because in a average mission pocket there is likely to be 3 to 4 times as many small ships as there are the larger ones.

Kitty Bear wrote:
For me running L4's in a smaller ship was about getting out of the comfort zone
They were easy in a BS
A single mistake in an AF left you in a pod

So true and this is why I like running 4's in AF and Destroyer class ships it puts some of the fun and challenge back into them.
Yes I know crap ISK/LP per hour but who cares about that. I have enough ISK to buy what I need and a good job to buy and sell plex if needed, this is a game and playing it is about having fun and the boring grind for max ISK/LP is not fun.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2016-08-22 14:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
Cyclone Organic wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:

You can run L4's in all kinds of ships
Battleships are best, but smaller ships can work too.
With smaller ships you need to pay more attention to wave triggers and group agro
More focused skills help too.

With the Tengu (or any other sub-BS ship) you are trading
- Range for Speed & Manoeuvrability
- Faster small NPC killing for Slower large NPC killing
- Increased 'risk' for longer mission times

For me running L4's in a smaller ship was about getting out of the comfort zone
They were easy in a BS
A single mistake in an AF left you in a pod



Sorry for getting back to you so late.

I'd like to do a test and collect some data about mission running time and efficiency, for different mission contents with various ship classes. But unfortunately I don't have enough SP at this point. I guess one year is needed for me to use all these previous mentioned ships and modules If no other people post the report before I do. We will see.


That's something I can't help you with.
I never timed missions, as I was never concerned with $/hr rates.

All I can tell you is the general longest to fastest clearing times.

[slower]
- Ishkur
- Gila & Ishtar
- Tengu
- Dominix
- Rattlesnake
[faster]

and you've no doubt noticed the trend in my mission ship choices :D

Apart from some CN-BCU's I only used basic T2 fits
Add more bling and you can generally clear sites a little faster, has it's risks though.

I also never blitzed missions, for which iirc the Machariel is the best choice.
Voxinian
#40 - 2016-09-06 13:24:40 UTC
Roci Nantes wrote:
MTUs are easy to scan down. Mission jackers and gamkers use them to find you, easier. Having an alt do your salvage a room or so behind you, is how I prefer to do mine.


Or simply don't bother with all the (mostly) T1 junk and scrap metal. The time it takes to pick it all up you could have done an other mission and farmed more LPs. Loot BS wrecks during a mission and ignore the rest and move on to the next mission.
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