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CCP, why do you allow Hi-Sec to be a haven for gankers

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Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#161 - 2016-07-25 19:44:30 UTC
Come one dudes. Don't make me stand up for the gankers. I really don't like 'em but there was no exploit here. It was a legit gank with legit consequences and the pilot was in error. Case close, aye?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#162 - 2016-07-25 19:47:46 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:

CCP Falcon wrote:

I don't see the logic in CONCORD being anything more than a deterrent, the same way as any real world law enforcement agency operates. They're punitive rather than than proactive in their law enforcement, just the same as real world law works.


That IS NOT the way real world law enforcement is set up. What do you think all those TSA agents are doing at airports? They are not providing consequences for blowing up an aircraft, they are there to stop it from happening in the first place.

Even in game you have done so many changes that make ganking harder; increased hit points for freighters, faster CONCORD response times, and so on. CCP has been a little proactive against ganking. CONCORD is also proactive in that it does not allow capital ships into high sec.


Well, just to add something regarding police and RL (I know this is a game...still, this might surprise some).

Here in the U.S. the police do NOT have to help anyone. That is in fact, the law.

Warren v. District of Columbia.

The ruling in that case was that the police do not have to provide police service to citizens.

In essence, IRL, the police are under no obligation to help you in anyway (if you live in the U.S.).

In game, CONCORD will always show up (if you are in HS and under a war dec) and make sure to burn the aggressor's ship down.


This is not accurate as far as law enforcement is concerned. In the United States a law enforcement agency owes general duty to the public rather than to individuals unless special circumstances arise (for example, if I arrest someone, that is a special circumstance, I have to protect them from harm, at least till i turn them over to the jail).

People misunderstand Warren v DC all the time so you are not alone. The case means yes police have to help the general public, no police are not your personal bodyguards.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#163 - 2016-07-25 19:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Why gankers should not accept consequences of their actions. I mean CONSEQUENCES. As in they should live in lawless space if they really want such freedom.
I would be better CONCORD Leader than all of them.

Panaja Paukonsuo, what have you done for High sec for now? Nothing.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Saelyth
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
#164 - 2016-07-25 19:58:51 UTC
zus wrote:

For only one of your multiple personalities what if the punishment was for the whole account Attention


This is a terrible idea and one hell of a slippery slope. You might as well suggest they extend "punishment" across ALL accounts related to a person doing it.
Roenok Baalnorn
Baalnorn Heavy Industries
#165 - 2016-07-25 20:05:39 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Why gankers should not accept consequences of their actions. I mean CONSEQUENCES. As in they should live in lawless space if they really want such freedom.
I would be better CONCORD Leader than all of them.


Gankers accept the consequences of their actions. Gankers know full well what will happen when they gank. The problem is Pver's wont accept full responsibility for their actions nor accept the consequences of those actions. Rather than adapt to the game and the rules around ganking and what makes good gank targets, they blatantly ignore the rules around ganking, tanking their ship, and making sure the value of their cargo isnt to high to make them a target. Instead of making multiple trips and being significantly safer from ganking, they try to make one trip with all their golden eggs in their paper basket going through the ghetto.

Their greed, laziness, and unwillingness to adapt to the situation causes them to die. IE: Darwinism at work. Failure to adapt means you die.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#166 - 2016-07-25 20:06:39 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Why gankers should not accept consequences of their actions. I mean CONSEQUENCES. As in they should live in lawless space if they really want such freedom.
I would be better CONCORD Leader than all of them.

Panaja Paukonsuo, what have you done for High sec for now? Nothing.

They lose their ship, they lose sec status and they get a 15 min timer. These are the consequences for the ganker. The victim only losses their ship.

When they lose enough sec status, EVERYONE can shoot at them until they either grind it back up or pay rather expensive tags.

But I suppose that is not enough. More consequences for gankers and less for carebears. Seems fair and balanced.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#167 - 2016-07-25 20:07:40 UTC
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
After I read developers answers like the one above I think they deserve to lose every single hisec miner/social/pve player, I would be extremely curious to see what would happen to this game.

I think developers really deserve it.

As an occasional highsec miner and regular highsec pve player I care to disagree with you.

I think Falcon nailed it once again and did a great job in responding to the ops whine post in a measured and friendly way. Customer service at its best.

Remove standings and insurance.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#168 - 2016-07-25 20:14:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Come one dudes. Don't make me stand up for the gankers. I really don't like 'em but there was no exploit here. It was a legit gank with legit consequences and the pilot was in error. Case close, aye?

We are getting closer with you... every day.. with every post.. you can almost see the light... we are not far away now.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101626

Evil RatKid
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
#169 - 2016-07-25 20:17:35 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Why gankers should not accept consequences of their actions. I mean CONSEQUENCES. As in they should live in lawless space if they really want such freedom.
I would be better CONCORD Leader than all of them.

Panaja Paukonsuo, what have you done for High sec for now? Nothing.


They do live in lawless space. They live in SPACE. We call 0.0 space lawless because of no police, but in reality most of New Eden is fairly lawless. In HS you have scamming, war, trade wars, etc. That very lawless. From an in-game perspective the most lawful areas would be planets and stations that are governed a little bit better. The whole premise of the game is the fact you live in a very lawless spacescape and the further out from the Empires it just gets worse. You do know the title itself stands for Everyone verses Everyone and the second you sign up you are told ****'s rough.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#170 - 2016-07-25 20:29:18 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Why gankers should not accept consequences of their actions. I mean CONSEQUENCES. As in they should live in lawless space if they really want such freedom.
I would be better CONCORD Leader than all of them.

Panaja Paukonsuo, what have you done for High sec for now? Nothing.

They lose their ship, they lose sec status and they get a 15 min timer. These are the consequences for the ganker. The victim only losses their ship.

When they lose enough sec status, EVERYONE can shoot at them until they either grind it back up or pay rather expensive tags.

But I suppose that is not enough. More consequences for gankers and less for carebears. Seems fair and balanced.

These are jokes, not consequences. Lawles nature, lawless place for it.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#171 - 2016-07-25 20:39:11 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:

CCP Falcon wrote:

I don't see the logic in CONCORD being anything more than a deterrent, the same way as any real world law enforcement agency operates. They're punitive rather than than proactive in their law enforcement, just the same as real world law works.


That IS NOT the way real world law enforcement is set up. What do you think all those TSA agents are doing at airports? They are not providing consequences for blowing up an aircraft, they are there to stop it from happening in the first place.

Even in game you have done so many changes that make ganking harder; increased hit points for freighters, faster CONCORD response times, and so on. CCP has been a little proactive against ganking. CONCORD is also proactive in that it does not allow capital ships into high sec.


Well, just to add something regarding police and RL (I know this is a game...still, this might surprise some).

Here in the U.S. the police do NOT have to help anyone. That is in fact, the law.

Warren v. District of Columbia.

The ruling in that case was that the police do not have to provide police service to citizens.

In essence, IRL, the police are under no obligation to help you in anyway (if you live in the U.S.).

In game, CONCORD will always show up (if you are in HS and under a war dec) and make sure to burn the aggressor's ship down.


This is not accurate as far as law enforcement is concerned. In the United States a law enforcement agency owes general duty to the public rather than to individuals unless special circumstances arise (for example, if I arrest someone, that is a special circumstance, I have to protect them from harm, at least till i turn them over to the jail).

People misunderstand Warren v DC all the time so you are not alone. The case means yes police have to help the general public, no police are not your personal bodyguards.


Yes, the police have a duty to the general public, but no duty to any specific individual. So if a police officer sees you getting mugged he is under no obligation to help you as you are an individual.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#172 - 2016-07-25 20:43:35 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Come one dudes. Don't make me stand up for the gankers. I really don't like 'em but there was no exploit here. It was a legit gank with legit consequences and the pilot was in error. Case close, aye?

Give it time, just wait.
The next time an edge gets rounded and we wail and gnash our teeth to no avail do you think they will be happy then?
Will that be enough?
Will that be the one that quiets them?

We both know the answer to that, its why we respond to every one of these godforsaken children.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#173 - 2016-07-25 20:43:48 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Come one dudes. Don't make me stand up for the gankers. I really don't like 'em but there was no exploit here. It was a legit gank with legit consequences and the pilot was in error. Case close, aye?

We are getting closer with you... every day.. with every post.. you can almost see the light... we are not far away now.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101626

High sec is saved many times by you all, every gank brings you closer to victory. Pyrrhic victory.

The days of such reigns must end fast.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#174 - 2016-07-25 20:46:52 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Why gankers should not accept consequences of their actions. I mean CONSEQUENCES. As in they should live in lawless space if they really want such freedom.
I would be better CONCORD Leader than all of them.

Panaja Paukonsuo, what have you done for High sec for now? Nothing.

They lose their ship, they lose sec status and they get a 15 min timer. These are the consequences for the ganker. The victim only losses their ship.

When they lose enough sec status, EVERYONE can shoot at them until they either grind it back up or pay rather expensive tags.

But I suppose that is not enough. More consequences for gankers and less for carebears. Seems fair and balanced.

These are jokes, not consequences. Lawles nature, lawless place for it.


And yet they are significant enough to prevent ganking from being ubiquitous.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#175 - 2016-07-25 20:54:11 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
High sec is saved many times by you all, every gank brings you closer to victory.

You are a good example of what's wrong with Highsec. Every thread people like you make brings more of our critics over to our camp. Your demands are so unreasonable and beyond an understanding what EVE is that more and more people are starting to see the light and that James 315 was right all along.

You can not win this, as we will fight for EVE as long as the servers are up and do our best to eradicate the bot-aspirant disease from this brilliant game. And as we all know, the CODE always wins, always!

Evil RatKid
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#176 - 2016-07-25 20:55:47 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
High sec is saved many times by you all, every gank brings you closer to victory.

You are a good example of what's wrong with Highsec. Every thread people like you make brings more of our critics over to our camp. Your demands are so unreasonable and beyond an understanding what EVE is that more and more people are starting to see the light and that James 315 was right all along.


Which pisses me off. Big smile

Somebody get James 315 an editor dammit!

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#177 - 2016-07-25 21:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
You can not win this, as we will fight for EVE as long as the servers are up and do our best to eradicate the bot-aspirant disease from this brilliant game. And as we all know, the CODE always wins, always!

You will win, but not what you want, Pyrrhic victory, as I said.
Having such dedication will bring you closer to it even faster.

And your bot disease battling is non existent. All lies.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#178 - 2016-07-25 21:05:23 UTC
This has been beaten to death.

While I completely understand CCP Falcon's position and support most of it, there are some leaps to rationality that are implied but not supported. Some have pointed those out but it's easy enough to give him a pass on it because you still understand what he was getting at.

As to HiSec ganking. You have two options:

Fit a ship appropriately to wait for the cavalry to arrive.

-or-

Remove the reward and increase the risk for the would-be pirates.

How you choose to do the above things is really up to you. It's part of the learning curve and part of the game. Yes, people like this really suck the fun out of the game for the creator sorts but that's fun for them. So, you can either give them the gank and the tears, or just give them the gank, say nothing and walk away to try again. Maybe you'll do better next time. Personally, I'd hunt their sorry butts down with my free shot at them and make them pay double for taking me on. You have to increase their cost/risk or they will never learn.

Don't be a victim, get even.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Caco De'mon
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#179 - 2016-07-25 21:10:29 UTC
Hi-Sec needs to be purged of the greedy miners that just sit in belts days after day AFK mining for their PLEX(s).

Only through destruction can there be creation....

All praise James 315!

*"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#180 - 2016-07-25 21:10:48 UTC
This is a great thread! It has everything! 8 pages of pure entertainment!

We got clueless carebears recommending mechanics that are already in the game, Dracvlad playing a sad song for the poor noobies on his tiny violin, and this:

"Anyway, I'm looking forward to Star Citizen instead..."

HAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*gasp*

PFFFFFFFFF LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com