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CCP, why do you allow Hi-Sec to be a haven for gankers

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Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#141 - 2016-07-25 18:37:07 UTC
MidnightWyvern wrote:
These threads are cancer.

Has everyone in the gaming community just lost any interest in danger? In excitement? I've been jumped on gates and lost more than the OP and the salt just made me hungry for blood. In some cases I even managed to kill them back using my Kill Rights, and that made it feel worthwhile.

I mean, Elite: Dangerous community made a Private Group called Mobius that kicks anyone who attempts to PvP, and their membership is in the tens of THOUSANDS.

What is with this modern mindset of "lay me in the no-PvP cradle and rock me to sleep while singing lullabies"? How is that in any way fun?

Without the ever-present risk of ganks I'd just be bored. Danger = Excitement = FUN.



What you find boring we find fun, what you find fun we find a pain in the ass.

You play how you want to, go ahead, but don't knock others for playing how they want to.


BTW, This thread isn't cancer...cancer is a vile disease that so far has killed 7 members of my family, including my Mother and Grandmother.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#142 - 2016-07-25 18:38:02 UTC
William Aiderone wrote:
who could've loved eve for it's awesome pvp? I know atleast a few of my friends would've thrived in eve, atleast in lowsec. Must it all be all black and white, can there be no improvements for new players and HS residents without killing eve? I find that hard to belive.




All of this talk of loving lowsec and PVP and danger and risk sounds dangerously like backpedalling.

As you yourself insist that the world is more like a variety of greys rather than black and white, so too are there different levels of PVP interaction in this game. I would imagine that you could categorise them as running the gamut from supercap fights in Null to...unobservant and unaware T1 haulers being ganked in high sec by observant and aware players.

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#143 - 2016-07-25 18:44:35 UTC
William Aiderone wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
William Aiderone wrote:
So when five of out five of my friends decide to quit eve partly due to bad mechanics there can't be any improvements to the game/new player experience without killing eve and when I'm giving feedback about this issue I'm entitled and clueless?

Btw you 1-2 guys in this forum who actually calmly argue your points of view instead, well done contributing to something constructive.


If I get behind the wheel of a car and don't stop at a red light, did I get hit because of bad mechanics by the traffic light?

If you ever have a sympathetic ear, it's mine. I have no interest in high sec PvP. I think wardeccing and ganking is an easy way to get kills, and I'd personally rather see people challenge themselves by going after people who fight back.

That being said, I don't want to change EVE just because I personally don't enjoy one aspect of it. I don't like highsec PvP, so I don't live in HS and don't do PvP there. My advice to your friends? Learn the game mechanics. If someone is paying attention to the game, they will never be ganked.

So to summarize if it isn't clear, define bad mechanics. That in and of itself is subjective. To a cap pilot who wants to jump across the map, not letting him/her cyno through HS is a bad mechanic. To a gas miner with no combat skills, having sleepers spawn after 15 minutes is a bad mechanic. To a nullsec carrier ratter, not being able to turn off stargates is a bad mechanic. You have to look at all playstyles before you say what is and isn't a bad mechanic.


While I don't agree with the analogy about the red light... We can agree that the whole bad mechanic part is subjective. For instance if we take OP's example. Those highsec gankers most likely think that it's a great mechanic that they can steal loot for billions of ISK free of risk and with little effort. And certainly it gives a feeling of danger in HS which I don't want to kill. And obviously from many others players perspective it's a bad mechanic.

But regardless of perspective... And even though everyone know where I stand, if I refrain from saying one or the other is right... Is it that far fetched that this is probably causing a lot of players to quit, who could've loved eve for it's awesome pvp? I know atleast a few of my friends would've thrived in eve, atleast in lowsec. Must it all be all black and white, can there be no improvements for new players and HS residents without killing eve? I find that hard to belive.

Anyway, I just wanted to give my feedback about what I saw as a deterrent for new players, or atleast it was for my friends. I've lingered in these forums longer than I had planned. Gl and have a nice day everyone.


Right now, the only analysis of this says, No, player who are killed "illegally" (i.e. ganked) are subscribed longer than players killed legally (war decs) and players not killed at all. People have complained about the analysis, but IMO, it looks rather decent to me.

CCP looked at 80,000 accounts (and to be clear they picked players, not alt accounts). They then looked at people lost a ship in their first 15 days--i.e. new players. They classified the ship losses into the following categories:

1. Legal--i.e. a war dec, dual, etc.
2. Illegal--i.e. the player was ganked.

What they found was that the players who were ganked stayed longer than those who were legally killed, and those who were legally killed stayed longer than those who were not ganked.

Now, the presentation did not go into the statistical significance of these results (that I recall). It could be that these differences are statistically insignificant and the time these players stayed in game was on average the same in all the categories.

Further, the percentage of new players that are ganked is around 1%.

So, it is unlikely that this is causing a loss of players or a player retention issue. It might, but right now the only analysis we have says no it is not an issue.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#144 - 2016-07-25 18:44:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Snowflake generation incomming , man the cats and the nados!
Fit the ishkurs for sig tanking ,prep your tear buckets ladies and gentlemen GO GO GO!!!!


*Looks around*

.( .__.).

.(.__. ).

.( .__.).

Oh, you optimist you. If only they would be here.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Memphis Baas
#145 - 2016-07-25 18:47:00 UTC
My 2 cents:

1. Gate camp is at least 2-3 people, and you're solo, so in principle you don't have much of a chance. On top of the numbers, the gate campers have prepared a trap (It's a trap!), which gives you even less of a chance. So you got caught.

2. On the other hand, these things happen at well known locations in high-sec, because that's where the highest traffic is. And the map reveals the location if you set it up correctly. And there are plenty of guides and advice on how to avoid or minimize your losses, including "use a scout". So your chances as a solo pilot are quite a bit higher than in other MMO's, where 3 vs. 1 is a death sentence.

3. I guess the specific game mechanics are vague, but they are:

- the keyboard shortcut to target-lock a ship is ctrl-click
- the keyboard shortcut to fly towards a ship is double-click

So if someone ctrl-tripleclicks your ship in the overview, they'll lock you AND fly to your position.

Cloaking mechanics are like this:

- you have to drop the gate invisibility in order to activate your cloaking device, this makes you visible for 1 second
- if you're targeted, you stay visible
- if anyone gets within 2.5 km of you, you lose your cloak because of the proximity

So guess what, an interceptor ctrl-tripleclicking you during the 1 second when you're visible in the overview, and being able to move to your location at 3-4 km/s before you have a chance to move away, that's smart tactics, preparation, and planning. The guy did his job.

You just blindly walked into a trap, and now you're asking CCP to change the game to help you survive that.

They can't fix st... well, you know how that goes.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#146 - 2016-07-25 18:51:37 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
MidnightWyvern wrote:
These threads are cancer.

Has everyone in the gaming community just lost any interest in danger? In excitement? I've been jumped on gates and lost more than the OP and the salt just made me hungry for blood. In some cases I even managed to kill them back using my Kill Rights, and that made it feel worthwhile.

I mean, Elite: Dangerous community made a Private Group called Mobius that kicks anyone who attempts to PvP, and their membership is in the tens of THOUSANDS.

What is with this modern mindset of "lay me in the no-PvP cradle and rock me to sleep while singing lullabies"? How is that in any way fun?

Without the ever-present risk of ganks I'd just be bored. Danger = Excitement = FUN.



What you find boring we find fun, what you find fun we find a pain in the ass.

You play how you want to, go ahead, but don't knock others for playing how they want to.


BTW, This thread isn't cancer...cancer is a vile disease that so far has killed 7 members of my family, including my Mother and Grandmother.


Here is the thing...you can play how you want, but you cannot prevent players from interacting with you....even if that interaction is a PITA.

That is the very nature of this game.

The default mode of this game is simple:

You can shoot anyone, anywhere, at anytime in game so long as you accept the consequences. That is I can undock and shoot you immediately in HS so long as i accept that I will in turn lose my ship. If I fit my ship so that I can destroy yours before the consequences are metted out...that is the game working as intended.

My first day in game I fully expected to be shot upon undocking the first time. I was a noob, but I had read enough to know that Eve was a rough and tumble game. Later I learned that kind of thing is rather rare in starter systems.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2016-07-25 19:00:39 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
This is the reason I think it would be well deserved if all hisec players would go "on strike" for some months or leave the game.

I would probably start mining since the ore would now be much more valuable.

On the other hand there are a lot of highsec miners and industrialists which are perfectly capable of operating with gankers in the system. They are even glad we kill of their stupid competition who are too dumb to play the game and get killed in their untanked and unprepared ships. I don't know how many times I got a stack of free Catalysts and a thank you from a happy local highsec industrialist.


Only in your dreams.

I have the opinion the game would be closed after maybe a couple of month without the income of all the hisec players that I really think are much more than what you imagine.
Most nullsec players have hisec alts, I'd wager real cash money on most lowsec and wormhole players having them too; the number of players that solely play in hisec is probably much lower than you imagine.


I actually have more hisec alts than I do nullsec characters. (About a 5 to 1 ratio, tbh)

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
#148 - 2016-07-25 19:01:20 UTC
soooo... you fail at EVE and it's all their fault right? Riiiiiight... Roll
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#149 - 2016-07-25 19:05:16 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
..if you see this in that light, as real life model, let these criminals in game prisons for some time, that would be a quick way of getting rid of them.

How about 15min?

What about ban on high sec for one month, gates would not let you in.
CONCORD pods you and you wake up in prison colony in low sec.
Cant jump clone to high.


So much for the sandbox.... Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#150 - 2016-07-25 19:18:07 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Lolipops, Its not racism, its called playstyle chauvinism.


No, it is called realizing what kind of game we are playing.

And playing a game is a choice. Nobody is forcing you into this type of game.

You, on the other hand are like the house guest from Hell who won't leave, constantly complains about the house you are staying in, and wants to change stuff that is not yours.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#151 - 2016-07-25 19:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Lolipops, Its not racism, its called playstyle chauvinism.


No, it is called realizing what kind of game we are playing.

And playing a game is a choice. Nobody is forcing you into this type of game.

You, on the other hand are like the house guest from Hell who won't leave, constantly complains about the house you are staying in, and wants to change stuff that is not yours.

You are also guest here, dont forget that. Its not your home. Is just a game.
And stuff. All is CCP stuff.
And sandbox too. Must be regulated with some laws to not become litter. As in your neighborhood.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2016-07-25 19:31:44 UTC
No. No stinking law. Too much of that cr4p IRL -- in my game I want freedom.

Just accept the loss, LEARN how to improve your piloting skill and move on.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#153 - 2016-07-25 19:36:01 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:

CCP Falcon wrote:

I don't see the logic in CONCORD being anything more than a deterrent, the same way as any real world law enforcement agency operates. They're punitive rather than than proactive in their law enforcement, just the same as real world law works.


That IS NOT the way real world law enforcement is set up. What do you think all those TSA agents are doing at airports? They are not providing consequences for blowing up an aircraft, they are there to stop it from happening in the first place.

Even in game you have done so many changes that make ganking harder; increased hit points for freighters, faster CONCORD response times, and so on. CCP has been a little proactive against ganking. CONCORD is also proactive in that it does not allow capital ships into high sec.


Well, just to add something regarding police and RL (I know this is a game...still, this might surprise some).

Here in the U.S. the police do NOT have to help anyone. That is in fact, the law.

Warren v. District of Columbia.

The ruling in that case was that the police do not have to provide police service to citizens.

In essence, IRL, the police are under no obligation to help you in anyway (if you live in the U.S.).

In game, CONCORD will always show up (if you are in HS and under a war dec) and make sure to burn the aggressor's ship down.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#154 - 2016-07-25 19:36:35 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
No. No stinking law. Too much of that cr4p IRL -- in my game I want freedom.

Just accept the loss, LEARN how to improve your piloting skill and move on.

Remember, consequences, actions have consequences.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2016-07-25 19:37:45 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Lolipops, Its not racism, its called playstyle chauvinism.


No, it is called realizing what kind of game we are playing.

And playing a game is a choice. Nobody is forcing you into this type of game.

You, on the other hand are like the house guest from Hell who won't leave, constantly complains about the house you are staying in, and wants to change stuff that is not yours.

You are also guest here, dont forget that. Its not your home. Is just a game.
And stuff. All is CCP stuff.
And sandbox too. Must be regulated with some laws to not become litter. As in your neighborhood.


I'm not asking them to change the game in a fundamental way, though, now am I?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#156 - 2016-07-25 19:39:01 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
No. No stinking law. Too much of that cr4p IRL -- in my game I want freedom.

Just accept the loss, LEARN how to improve your piloting skill and move on.

Remember, consequences, actions have consequences.


Not in your vision of the game though. You want to remove consequences.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2016-07-25 19:39:09 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
No. No stinking law. Too much of that cr4p IRL -- in my game I want freedom.

Just accept the loss, LEARN how to improve your piloting skill and move on.

Remember, consequences, actions have consequences.


Those Vexors died, yes? If they didn't, OP was under a wardec and there shouldn't be consequences.
The blame is clearly on the industrial pilot who didn't know what to do. That's okay- he'll know better next time.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#158 - 2016-07-25 19:40:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
Nana Skalski wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
No. No stinking law. Too much of that cr4p IRL -- in my game I want freedom.

Just accept the loss, LEARN how to improve your piloting skill and move on.

Remember, consequences, actions have consequences.

Getting killed for flying around with too much cargo in an intanked T1 industrial with no scouts or other security measures, sounds like a fine consequence in my mind...

But I suppose, only gankers needs consequences in their gameplay.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#159 - 2016-07-25 19:40:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Teckos Pech wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:

CCP Falcon wrote:

I don't see the logic in CONCORD being anything more than a deterrent, the same way as any real world law enforcement agency operates. They're punitive rather than than proactive in their law enforcement, just the same as real world law works.


That IS NOT the way real world law enforcement is set up. What do you think all those TSA agents are doing at airports? They are not providing consequences for blowing up an aircraft, they are there to stop it from happening in the first place.

Even in game you have done so many changes that make ganking harder; increased hit points for freighters, faster CONCORD response times, and so on. CCP has been a little proactive against ganking. CONCORD is also proactive in that it does not allow capital ships into high sec.


Well, just to add something regarding police and RL (I know this is a game...still, this might surprise some).

Here in the U.S. the police do NOT have to help anyone. That is in fact, the law.

Warren v. District of Columbia.

The ruling in that case was that the police do not have to provide police service to citizens.

In essence, IRL, the police are under no obligation to help you in anyway (if you live in the U.S.).

In game, CONCORD will always show up (if you are in HS and under a war dec) and make sure to burn the aggressor's ship down.

If they will not help you next time, you can be so crazy happy about that. Actually CONCORD is in game entity and can do anything CCP wants.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
zus
TxivYawg
#160 - 2016-07-25 19:41:12 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
So again with this topic coming up, I have to ask the super simple question that I ask many of our players who are unhappy with highsec ganking:

In a sandbox game that's designed purely around player interaction, cause and effect, action and reaction, why should the game provide you with a 100% safe option, and why should there be a position in EVE where you're isolated from interaction with other players?

I don't see the logic in CONCORD being anything more than a deterrent, the same way as any real world law enforcement agency operates. They're punitive rather than than proactive in their law enforcement, just the same as real world law works. They act on the principle of an eye for an eye, actually a lot more severe than real world law enforcement.

The issue here isn't the mechanics of the game, but as people have pointed out, the fact that you put too many eggs in one undefended paper thin basket and didn't appropriately protect and secure it.

The in game map, as well as word of mouth, your overview, enabling sound and a myriad of other tools in game can assist you in avoiding taking a loss like this in future. Some of those options are available solo if that's how you choose to play, or you can look to hire a scout or be part of an organization that will in the very minimum of circumstances give you safety in numbers.

You should take this as an expensive lesson, and make sure that you fit appropriately to carry valuable cargo in future. Smile


CCP Falcon

I don't see the logic in CONCORD being anything more than a deterrent, the same way as any real world law enforcement agency operates. They're punitive rather than than proactive in their law enforcement, just the same as real world law works. They act on the principle of an eye for an eye, actually a lot more severe than real world law enforcement.


For only one of your multiple personalities what if the punishment was for the whole account Attention