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Stop the wars !!! I want to do my own thing !!!

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Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#341 - 2016-08-16 10:34:20 UTC
If you are paying for intel then by definition it is not free.

When you have an active merc corp running locates on possible targets they spend a LOT of isk on those agents over the course of a war.... well, you did before they became useless, but I digress. You can easily spend as much as the cost of the war on locates over it's duration, often times more. It doesn't seem like much each time you pull the lever, but it adds up, especially if you take into consideration the total number of characters and agents being employed simultaneously.

And for what? Ideally, the location of a player who is online and in space 'at the time you triggered the agent'. Great. You still need to get eyes to that area and scout out to find if they are still anywhere near there. Oftentimes they're long gone by the time you get there, but that's just how it goes.

Or how it went. It's busted now. Like Ralph, I'm not advocating the return of the watchlist. It was a valuable tool, but mercs can live without it provided they have other viable tools for collecting intel on their targets. Locator agents being fixed would resolve this.

Sending out a thousand neutral flying monkeys to cover the four corners of empire in hopes of finding Dorothy and her little dog is not a viable option. Smaller organizations cannot do this, and larger ones would rather just dec everything in sight near their homeland to reduce the burden of tracking prey.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#342 - 2016-08-16 10:37:06 UTC
Giaus Felix wrote:
If you pay for something, it isn't free Roll


Omar Alharazaad wrote:
If you are paying for intel then by definition it is not free.


This is general discussion, your logical conclusions have no place here P

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Solecist Project
#343 - 2016-08-16 10:39:26 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
If you are paying for intel then by definition it is not free.

When you have an active merc corp running locates on possible targets they spend a LOT of isk on those agents over the course of a war.... well, you did before they became useless, but I digress. You can easily spend as much as the cost of the war on locates over it's duration, often times more. It doesn't seem like much each time you pull the lever, but it adds up, especially if you take into consideration the total number of characters and agents being employed simultaneously.

And for what? Ideally, the location of a player who is online and in space 'at the time you triggered the agent'. Great. You still need to get eyes to that area and scout out to find if they are still anywhere near there. Oftentimes they're long gone by the time you get there, but that's just how it goes.

Or how it went. It's busted now. Like Ralph, I'm not advocating the return of the watchlist. It was a valuable tool, but mercs can live without it provided they have other viable tools for collecting intel on their targets. Locator agents being fixed would resolve this.

Sending out a thousand neutral flying monkeys to cover the four corners of empire in hopes of finding Dorothy and her little dog is not a viable option. Smaller organizations cannot do this, and larger ones would rather just dec everything in sight near their homeland to reduce the burden of tracking prey.


Then make it open to everyone, like it should be.

Claiming it's not a viable option is worthless.

Explain why it isn't!

What mercs currently are doing is outright useless and serves you nothing.
It only supports the nonsense about you wanting cheap and easy kills ...
... doesn't add anything to the game ...
... doesn't send a message ...
... and doesn't change anything.

So please, explain why it's not viable.
It's a better idea than what is going on now ...
... especially because it doesn't rely on big brother CCP to change something.

Thank you.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Solecist Project
#344 - 2016-08-16 10:42:33 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
If i hace alts in these systems why not just, watch local?

Because that's even worse than mining and extremely tiresome if you do it for hours.

My solution works automatically and avoids locators and the need of big brother ccp to change something for you.

And it's certainly doable.
Plus it would put all the useless money that's just sitting in wallets to good use.

DoublePlus, if you open it up for everyone, you could create the foundations to get rid of CONCORD alltogether.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#345 - 2016-08-16 11:14:14 UTC
Giaus Felix wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it
If you pay for something, it isn't free Roll

That much is obvious to anybody that has more than 2 brain cells to rub together.


250k is as near to free as you can get in Eve.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Valkin Mordirc
#346 - 2016-08-16 11:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
Quote:
Locators are as good as free, 250k, so what that is chicken shite and there is no counter, see that word, personally I think locator agents are lame too, I would remove them as well, plus all the data on the map too. This is not a FPS.


250k plus actually pinning down a target in system. Is not free. It requires both fee's and work to placed. You saying 250k is not free is saying that a pack of bubblegum that is only 50cents is not free. It still has cost.

And you not considering the amount of work that goes with the intel of the locate. Work, and Fee's. Time and Isk is spent.

The Watchlist, telling me if a Target is online, how many Members in a corp is online, is free. No work or fee's had to go into that intel



Quote:
You want locator agents to say if they are online or not too and where is the counter for that, it is free intel in the sense that you did not have to go out of you way to gather that data, you just ask and its given to you on a plate for some ISK, its not at all like what I proposed which is a skynet type system of OS which can be countered by someone with a bit more to them.


Add a refund for 50% cost paid if the target is not online. I really don't care if it's at the bringing of the end of the locate. Problem very easily solved.



Quote:
I used to do the intel gathering and setting up for others to get the kills, which is why I said I would simply not operate as you lot do and why this challenge is stupid. All it does is prove just how reliant on the watch list you were


Can you please show me a Killboard, or some kind of proof where all this work gave out the sorta of kills that Merc's get? You seem to be saying that all merc's can get the same outcome without locators. If so please show me something. Because it's a lot of I do this, I do that, with no burden being provided.
#DeleteTheWeak
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#347 - 2016-08-16 11:34:41 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
If you are paying for intel then by definition it is not free.

When you have an active merc corp running locates on possible targets they spend a LOT of isk on those agents over the course of a war.... well, you did before they became useless, but I digress. You can easily spend as much as the cost of the war on locates over it's duration, often times more. It doesn't seem like much each time you pull the lever, but it adds up, especially if you take into consideration the total number of characters and agents being employed simultaneously.

And for what? Ideally, the location of a player who is online and in space 'at the time you triggered the agent'. Great. You still need to get eyes to that area and scout out to find if they are still anywhere near there. Oftentimes they're long gone by the time you get there, but that's just how it goes.

Or how it went. It's busted now. Like Ralph, I'm not advocating the return of the watchlist. It was a valuable tool, but mercs can live without it provided they have other viable tools for collecting intel on their targets. Locator agents being fixed would resolve this.

Sending out a thousand neutral flying monkeys to cover the four corners of empire in hopes of finding Dorothy and her little dog is not a viable option. Smaller organizations cannot do this, and larger ones would rather just dec everything in sight near their homeland to reduce the burden of tracking prey.



From a reasonable point of view I could accept the detailing of online status as well as location for locator agents at additional cost and time limitations in being able to ask for another. But as I keep saying there is no counter, perhaps if prey can pay his own locator agents to keep tabs on people checking his location and status and get reports of attempts to locate him.

From my prespective I cannot understand that you have not done any leg work on the target before putting the war dec in if it is a hunt and kill contract as compared to a structure defence. This goes against the concept of Eve being a thinking mans game. It does not require a thousand neutral monkey's flying around, but to play within your means and abilities and know your area. I know that you guys tend to focus around Amarr space in general.

My focus on the OS was to push war dec entities to have skin in the game, something other than GTFO ships that the often poor in PVP SP players can blast as an act of resistance, the motive was to place a cost on war dec entities for having a watch list type system, so for ease of anything why not both and take my point on counter on board as it is important.

Thanks for a more measured post on this.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#348 - 2016-08-16 11:35:36 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it,

Im going to write that quote out in Calligraphy ,gilde ,frame and hang it over my pc.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#349 - 2016-08-16 11:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Quote:
Locators are as good as free, 250k, so what that is chicken shite and there is no counter, see that word, personally I think locator agents are lame too, I would remove them as well, plus all the data on the map too. This is not a FPS.


250k plus actually pinning down a target in system. Is not free. It requires both fee's and work to placed. You saying 250k is not free is saying that a pack of bubblegum that is only 50cents is not free. It still has cost.

And you not considering the amount of work that goes with the intel of the locate. Work, and Fee's. Time and Isk is spent.

The Watchlist, telling me if a Target is online, how many Members in a corp is online, is free. No work or fee's had to go into that intel



Quote:
You want locator agents to say if they are online or not too and where is the counter for that, it is free intel in the sense that you did not have to go out of you way to gather that data, you just ask and its given to you on a plate for some ISK, its not at all like what I proposed which is a skynet type system of OS which can be countered by someone with a bit more to them.


Add a refund for 50% cost paid if the target is not online. I really don't care if it's at the bringing of the end of the locate. Problem very easily solved.



Quote:
I used to do the intel gathering and setting up for others to get the kills, which is why I said I would simply not operate as you lot do and why this challenge is stupid. All it does is prove just how reliant on the watch list you were


Can you please show me a Killboard, or some kind of proof where all this work gave out the sorta of kills that Merc's get? You seem to be saying that all merc's can get the same outcome without locators. If so please show me something. Because it's a lot of I do this, I do that, with no burden being provided.


That is an argument point the last one, we got a lot of kill in Stain going after mission runners in certain HUB's its on my alliances killboard when we were fairly active. I made a suggestion above this post and my reasons for the OS.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#350 - 2016-08-16 11:40:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it,

Im going to write that quote out in Calligraphy ,gilde ,frame and hang it over my pc.


OK I should use better terminology, being in the Eve forums has addled my brain a bit, obviously paying for it is not free, nor is the standings required to get it. However apart from that you have to make no further effort than having an alt in position to get the data, and worst of all and where my main issue is, is the simple fact that there is no counter. Is that better for my issue with it, the lack of a counter and that it requires no real effort apart from the initial effort of standings.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#351 - 2016-08-16 11:44:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Giaus Felix
Dracvlad wrote:
Giaus Felix wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it
If you pay for something, it isn't free Roll

That much is obvious to anybody that has more than 2 brain cells to rub together.


250k is as near to free as you can get in Eve.
A 250,000 isk payment to a locator agent is not free, free implies that you receive something without any form of payment.

Stop using the word free to describe something that is clearly not free.

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.
Valkin Mordirc
#352 - 2016-08-16 11:44:15 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:



That is an argument point the last one, we got a lot of kill in Stain going after mission runners in certain HUB's its on my alliances killboard when we were fairly active. I made a suggestion above this post and my reasons for the OS.




So.


How does any experience in Nullsec pertain to Highsec? 
#DeleteTheWeak
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
#353 - 2016-08-16 11:49:42 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it,

Im going to write that quote out in Calligraphy ,gilde ,frame and hang it over my pc.


OK I should use better terminology, being in the Eve forums has addled my brain a bit, obviously paying for it is not free, nor is the standings required to get it. However apart from that you have to make no further effort than having an alt in position to get the data, and worst of all and where my main issue is, is the simple fact that there is no counter. Is that better for my issue with it, the lack of a counter and that it requires no real effort apart from the initial effort of standings.

I urge you to go out now, post-watchlist nerf and use locator agents to track people down. You arent allowed to shoot them a convo to see if they are online because that is something that is highly likely to tip them off. So go get a list of people and run locates. Go fly around after youve done this with a list of 20 and then get back to us.

Yeah sure all we had to do was type in a name, press ok, then wait a few minutes... But this is overdoing it.

HTFU
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#354 - 2016-08-16 11:51:21 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Well the question is more like would a war dec entity have bothered to have gone after someone like you before the watch list change, the answer would be no. Try harder please...


They did.

Now, how about you backing up your BS for once? Come find me.


OK now that is because of what, your ganking activities so someone paid them to war dec you and they of course had little hope of getting you. The trick in this game is to know what you can and cannot do and not try something that is impossible. The person who may have paid for a war dec against you would have been silly in my book. I for one know it would be very unlikely to have any impact on you whatsoever. I would not war dec PL to go after you period. Now if you were operating nearly all the time near me then that would be different.

I did at one time do a locator agent on you to find you location for interest and you were in Deklin at that point.. I know that you are not the alt of Warr Akkini or Endie, but have not managed to get more than that. You are as far as I am concerned are fairly untouchable. Which is why you comment is silly.


If you can't get better info on me of all people than how do you expect to track down people nobody knows? Especially given that they have no way of telling if they are online or not.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#355 - 2016-08-16 11:54:03 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:



That is an argument point the last one, we got a lot of kill in Stain going after mission runners in certain HUB's its on my alliances killboard when we were fairly active. I made a suggestion above this post and my reasons for the OS.




So.


How does any experience in Nullsec pertain to Highsec?


Hunting and killing mission runners is what you do in hisec and is what I did in NPC 0.0. I also hunted and killed people moving moon goo and stuff like that. All that is different is the hisec mechanics., so what is your point, because you have CONCORD and hisec criminal mechanics that the act of hunting and killing is different. Really you surprise me...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
#356 - 2016-08-16 12:02:54 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:



That is an argument point the last one, we got a lot of kill in Stain going after mission runners in certain HUB's its on my alliances killboard when we were fairly active. I made a suggestion above this post and my reasons for the OS.




So.


How does any experience in Nullsec pertain to Highsec?


Hunting and killing mission runners is what you do in hisec and is what I did in NPC 0.0. I also hunted and killed people moving moon goo and stuff like that. All that is different is the hisec mechanics., so what is your point, because you have CONCORD and hisec criminal mechanics that the act of hunting and killing is different. Really you surprise me...

So would you just stumble across these people? Would you observe how they travel or where they move their moon goo to and from? If so then that is completely different. Stalking and observing is not the same as running a locator.

HTFU
Valkin Mordirc
#357 - 2016-08-16 12:03:50 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:



That is an argument point the last one, we got a lot of kill in Stain going after mission runners in certain HUB's its on my alliances killboard when we were fairly active. I made a suggestion above this post and my reasons for the OS.




So.


How does any experience in Nullsec pertain to Highsec?


Hunting and killing mission runners is what you do in hisec and is what I did in NPC 0.0. I also hunted and killed people moving moon goo and stuff like that. All that is different is the hisec mechanics., so what is your point, because you have CONCORD and hisec criminal mechanics that the act of hunting and killing is different. Really you surprise me...



All that is different is the mechanics...
All that is different is the mechanics....and the act of hunting and killing is different.


So, what your saying is it's completely the same, expect that the core mechanics of the area are different?



Honestly dude, I don't think you understand how Highsec Wardecs really work. I think you are basing your idea's on what you did out in Null and you think that they will fit into highsec.


Go out and wardec some people. Do your nullsec thing in Highsec and come back and we can all see the results. If you manage to kill a decent amount of people I'll honestly give you a bit more validity, but really your not showing that you have any understanding about the current meta of how Highsec Mercs have to operate under.

You'll have a better idea on what you are trying to accomplish.
#DeleteTheWeak
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#358 - 2016-08-16 12:07:40 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it,

Im going to write that quote out in Calligraphy ,gilde ,frame and hang it over my pc.


OK I should use better terminology, being in the Eve forums has addled my brain a bit, obviously paying for it is not free, nor is the standings required to get it. However apart from that you have to make no further effort than having an alt in position to get the data, and worst of all and where my main issue is, is the simple fact that there is no counter. Is that better for my issue with it, the lack of a counter and that it requires no real effort apart from the initial effort of standings.

I urge you to go out now, post-watchlist nerf and use locator agents to track people down. You arent allowed to shoot them a convo to see if they are online because that is something that is highly likely to tip them off. So go get a list of people and run locates. Go fly around after youve done this with a list of 20 and then get back to us.

Yeah sure all we had to do was type in a name, press ok, then wait a few minutes... But this is overdoing it.


You made no effort to get that intel apart from standings to get the agent and then the ISK fee. What you do with it is down to your own competence or lack thereof. I would assume that you would have a specific locator alt and that you would with just a bit of effort be in the general area, is that too big an assumption to make on my part You make it sound like you are in Domain and run a locator on a guy who is normally running missions in Osmon, well of course you will have to get into position...

If you get them to block your character you can do convo requests to find out if they are online or not without tipping them off.

The lack of a counter for the prey is an issue, as I have the ability to run locator agents perhaps there is something that CCP can allow as a counter if I pay for it.

What does your suggestion prove, before any war dec went live I would have gathered the intel I needed, but here is an important factor for me, just because someone is in space does not mean they will be in space after the war dec goes live, the key factor is whether they have something in space that can be attacked. So your issue is also target selection.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
#359 - 2016-08-16 12:08:33 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:



That is an argument point the last one, we got a lot of kill in Stain going after mission runners in certain HUB's its on my alliances killboard when we were fairly active. I made a suggestion above this post and my reasons for the OS.




So.


How does any experience in Nullsec pertain to Highsec?


Hunting and killing mission runners is what you do in hisec and is what I did in NPC 0.0. I also hunted and killed people moving moon goo and stuff like that. All that is different is the hisec mechanics., so what is your point, because you have CONCORD and hisec criminal mechanics that the act of hunting and killing is different. Really you surprise me...

Also, concerning your signature. Im curious... When have gankers ever had a CSM member in their pocket fighting for them?

HTFU
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
#360 - 2016-08-16 12:14:35 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it,

Im going to write that quote out in Calligraphy ,gilde ,frame and hang it over my pc.


OK I should use better terminology, being in the Eve forums has addled my brain a bit, obviously paying for it is not free, nor is the standings required to get it. However apart from that you have to make no further effort than having an alt in position to get the data, and worst of all and where my main issue is, is the simple fact that there is no counter. Is that better for my issue with it, the lack of a counter and that it requires no real effort apart from the initial effort of standings.

I urge you to go out now, post-watchlist nerf and use locator agents to track people down. You arent allowed to shoot them a convo to see if they are online because that is something that is highly likely to tip them off. So go get a list of people and run locates. Go fly around after youve done this with a list of 20 and then get back to us.

Yeah sure all we had to do was type in a name, press ok, then wait a few minutes... But this is overdoing it.


You made no effort to get that intel apart from standings to get the agent and then the ISK fee. What you do with it is down to your own competence or lack thereof. I would assume that you would have a specific locator alt and that you would with just a bit of effort be in the general area, is that too big an assumption to make on my part You make it sound like you are in Domain and run a locator on a guy who is normally running missions in Osmon, well of course you will have to get into position...

If you get them to block your character you can do convo requests to find out if they are online or not without tipping them off.

The lack of a counter for the prey is an issue, as I have the ability to run locator agents perhaps there is something that CCP can allow as a counter if I pay for it.

What does your suggestion prove, before any war dec went live I would have gathered the intel I needed, but here is an important factor for me, just because someone is in space does not mean they will be in space after the war dec goes live, the key factor is whether they have something in space that can be attacked. So your issue is also target selection.

Forcing myself to get added to a block list is a terrible method in which to see if someone is online.

There is a counter... As a mission runner they are much more likely to habe access to more locator agents. If they are wardecd by a group, they can run locates to see if they are moving close. Said person can spread scouts around to see if they are coming.

Sometimes the client just requests maximum damage to a target and doesnt involve and structures.

HTFU