These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

"What Are We For?"

Author
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2016-07-19 01:56:31 UTC
Looking back at history, I concluded that when the Empires encouraged our proliferation because they were in need of weapons that could turn the tide of their respective wars of the time into their favour. The Caldari State was the first to receive capsule technology and with it, the State had intended to acquire the trump card against the numerically superior Federation Navy and their swarms of drones, for example.

Then the rest of the Cluster, feeling threatened and not wanting to fall behind the technological arms race, proliferated capsuleers of their own to compensate. Now, in a state of pseudo-Cold War, the Empires made more capsuleers to match up against each other as some kind of deterrent and to keep up with each other's military power. After all, if their most powerful assets can't be destroyed so readily, then the only thing to do to maintain military power is to simply have more of these assets than the other guy.

Of course, having a whole class of people who cheat death on a regular basis and has the keys to weapons that could leave an asteroid belt worth of recyclable resources in any battle that lasts more than an hour is also threatening. They could shut down our clone bays, true, but this also means giving the advantage to the opposing side. So instead, they appeased us and kept us busy and working through their agents.

Not that it stops many of us from simply striking out into the black looking for more prestige and power, of course. As humans, we are a bunch of greedy bastards and being greedy bastards, sometimes we just want more of everything.

As for why the Jovians gave the Caldari State capsule technology at all, well...I do not know. We can speculate forever about this and be either right or wrong and not having any confirmations unless the Jovians or their representatives decided to come clear and tell us about it.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#22 - 2016-07-19 07:05:56 UTC
I believe that the initial reason the pod was given to the Caldari was to maintain the war at that time between the Federation and the State. I believe that the Jovians did not (and potentially still do not) want a unified New Eden.

This is just but a theory of mine.

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2016-07-19 09:48:22 UTC
Steffanie Saissore wrote:
I believe that the initial reason the pod was given to the Caldari was to maintain the war at that time between the Federation and the State. I believe that the Jovians did not (and potentially still do not) want a unified New Eden.

This is just but a theory of mine.


Though I remember the State and the Federation being at a stalemate for a very long time even without the capsuleers being involved. If the Joves wanted to keep that war going they didn't need to lift a finger.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2016-07-19 14:15:11 UTC
It seems as though the origin of the pod and the origin of the regulatory scheme that governs our licensing, free movement, and system of crime and punishment (such as it is) are two pretty different issues.

Fundamentally, the pod is just a really nifty piece of military hardware that allows the user to get super-high performance out of a ship (and also, coincidentally, has a really convenient relationship with cloning technology). There's nothing about this that mandates creating a new independent pseudo-immortal mercenary class, and really the idea of "let's intentionally establish an unaccountable, uncontrolled and highly-chaotic interstellar meta-caste" is historically bizarre.

I kind of agree that the structure governing us whiffs of the Jove. Whatever we say about the other empires, they're all pretty traditional nation-states (albeit operating on a vast scale), and are pretty unlikely to do anything as radical as creating, well, us. Typically, they should want to control us the way they control their own naval capsuleers.

The Jove are apparently gone, though, and we're still not seeing ourselves shut down and forcibly retired, or our assets (and selves) distributed to the national navies. Also, the Jove must have offered something to the other empires to make it seem okay to make a class like us in the first place. What do we offer that naval capsuleers wouldn't?

(Colonization's kind of a neat idea, but I'd need to think about that some more.)
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#25 - 2016-07-19 15:07:37 UTC
We came about because, like all good things, people were so preoccupied with the question "Can we?" That they never asked "should we?"

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2016-07-19 15:50:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
It seems as though the origin of the pod and the origin of the regulatory scheme that governs our licensing, free movement, and system of crime and punishment (such as it is) are two pretty different issues.

Fundamentally, the pod is just a really nifty piece of military hardware that allows the user to get super-high performance out of a ship (and also, coincidentally, has a really convenient relationship with cloning technology). There's nothing about this that mandates creating a new independent pseudo-immortal mercenary class, and really the idea of "let's intentionally establish an unaccountable, uncontrolled and highly-chaotic interstellar meta-caste" is historically bizarre.

I kind of agree that the structure governing us whiffs of the Jove. Whatever we say about the other empires, they're all pretty traditional nation-states (albeit operating on a vast scale), and are pretty unlikely to do anything as radical as creating, well, us. Typically, they should want to control us the way they control their own naval capsuleers.

The Jove are apparently gone, though, and we're still not seeing ourselves shut down and forcibly retired, or our assets (and selves) distributed to the national navies. Also, the Jove must have offered something to the other empires to make it seem okay to make a class like us in the first place. What do we offer that naval capsuleers wouldn't?

(Colonization's kind of a neat idea, but I'd need to think about that some more.)


I think it goes this way. Empires create capsuleers, capsuleers cause all kinds of problems for their enemies. Empires let capsuleers do their stuff and the capsuleers, well, they started becoming media darlings or morale-boosters or heroes within the military or something similar. As a result, the Empires can't just be rid of these capsuleers without causing a shitstorm.

Then war is put on possibly indefinite hold, capsuleers start making demands. Empires can say no and end up with all kinds of shitstorm they much rather not have to deal with. So instead, they say yes. Things escalated.

And now, capsuleers have their fingers in nearly all levels of interstellar affairs from trade to industry and etc. If Empires try to regulate capsuleers too much they will pack up and desert or resign en-masse and there will be an even larger shitstorm. So, they procrastinate on this further because this is more trouble than they want to deal with *now*. This is the current state of the cluster.

As for why the Empires keep making more of us, well, it's because if one stops making capsuleers they risk putting themselves at a disadvantage against the others who are still making capsuleers, not something they can afford, considering the current political climate.Not to mention they also have to make up for those capsuleers who ran off to join whoever not one of theirs in the lowsec or nullsec regions. If they decide to start doing something that can be seen as overtly controlling the newly minted capsuleers they also risk raising a shitstorm with the already existing capsuleers. As such they resorted to what they deemed to be the 'best' solution to this dilemma. Namely, what is currently happening now.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#27 - 2016-07-23 15:00:00 UTC
Theres also simple economics to consider, even us independant capsuleers still pump huge amounts of ISK into empire businesses. How many of you have ever gone shopping for modules in Jita or bought a ship in Dodixie for example, the empire gets their cut every time isk changes hands inside their borders even if the goods then get shipped out to some lowsec station or null outpost. There simply isnt the manufacturing capability to keep us supplied any other way and the empires have a very powerful vested interest in keeping it that way.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#28 - 2016-07-23 20:15:17 UTC
Trying to understand…. the mind of God?

Interesting.

Why then would a dyeing race men, changed by a thousand generation of biological and technological manipulation wish to seed the universe with us?

An interesting question indeed.

That I fear is not for such as me to comprehend, though I do pursue such in those flashes of death we occasionally experience between life and life.

I am a humble trader, the capsule is a tool, though a miraculous one, nothing more, nothing less.

Does the why really matter?
Moonacre Parmala
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2016-07-24 08:19:04 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:


Does the why really matter?


To some? Yes.

To most? No

It's just a shame that those who know the answer are not saying. No matter how much we beg, plead, barter, whine, grovel or demand.

Still the theories posted here are quite enlightening.


For my 2 Isk's worth.

War whilst costly, breeds profit in additional avenues. Ships are needed and with only 4 major races to chose from (Pirates/Faction are discounted as they're just opportunistic entrepreneurs) the BULK are generated with taxes, industrial payments, material gains all going to the 4 major races. The longer the wars progress, the greater the funds pushed back into the warring sides. Even with capsuleers pushing deep into unknown reaches bpo's and c's, pos's, citadels all have to originate from somewhere and usually the roots can be traced back to one of the 4 races.

All in all, the capsuleers have been the mainstay of funding for the major races. 'WHY would they want that to stop?' would probably be a more astute question

Law Number III: There are no lazy veteran lion hunters.

Law Number VI: A hungry dog hunts best. A hungrier dog hunts even better.

Law Number XXXVIII: The early bird gets the worm. The early worm....gets eaten.

If in doubt , SHOOT !

Charles Cambridge Schmidt
Nadire Security Consultants
Federation Peacekeepers
#30 - 2016-07-24 18:07:02 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Iand really the idea of "let's intentionally establish an unaccountable, uncontrolled and highly-chaotic interstellar meta-caste" is historically bizarre.


I'd like to think of it as a contingency plan. Where the Navies are unable to recruit Capsuleers for their respective Navies, money and power are used to control an unset amount of us. It takes a very specific mind to fly in a pod, and for nearly all of us, said mind is easily bought.

To be honest, though, the sooner one recognizes that Capsuleers - at their deepest meaning - are simply weapons, the sooner one rationalizes away all those pesky feelings of morality... For better or worse, really.

I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#31 - 2016-07-24 18:21:14 UTC
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Iand really the idea of "let's intentionally establish an unaccountable, uncontrolled and highly-chaotic interstellar meta-caste" is historically bizarre.


I'd like to think of it as a contingency plan. Where the Navies are unable to recruit Capsuleers for their respective Navies, money and power are used to control an unset amount of us. It takes a very specific mind to fly in a pod, and for nearly all of us, said mind is easily bought.

To be honest, though, the sooner one recognizes that Capsuleers - at their deepest meaning - are simply weapons, the sooner one rationalizes away all those pesky feelings of morality... For better or worse, really.

We aren't really just weapons. More like... reusable control module for a weapon.
And we are controlled. Controlled by CONCORD and rules of capsule interface usage. Even Navy captains are way less controlled than we are.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#32 - 2016-07-24 18:46:43 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
And we are controlled.
Controlled by CONCORD and rules of capsule interface usage.
Even Navy captains are way less controlled than we are.

Could it be?

That deep under that grey exterior she yearns to be… free.

One can only hope.
Previous page12