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Todays patch a stealth nerf to exploration?
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Luh Windan
green fish hat bang bang
#1 - 2011-12-20 17:37:30 UTC
At the weekend I set out exploring and within 2 hops from my home system plus a quick visit to a wormhole I'd earned 100m isk

Today 6 hops and and visits to 3 wormholes later I've scraped together a measly 6m isk tops

So that was todays patch right? it must have broken something?

well....... No.

Actually all that happened was that at the weekend I did the equivalent of rolling a couple of high numbers and today I was rolling low.

I wanted to recommend a book I picked up over the weekend which explains all this really well with lots of real world examples in non technical language: "The drunkards walk: how randomness rules our lives" by Leonard Mlodinow - it explains why we *all* see patterns when there are none and are fooled by randomness.

(I have nothing to do with this book BTW just strikes me as very relevant and it explains things well in non technical language)
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#2 - 2011-12-20 17:39:26 UTC
came expecting a whine about numbers.

Left pleasantly surprised.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#3 - 2011-12-20 17:45:44 UTC
Bah, was hoping for a new thread for fun times.

Oh well, nice post OP.
TriadSte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-12-20 20:49:52 UTC
Ah may I point out your totally incorrect.

You see, this game is man made and any mathematical algorithm placed in a game is never truly random because it is man made.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#5 - 2011-12-20 22:20:27 UTC
TriadSte wrote:
Ah may I point out your totally incorrect.

You see, this game is man made and any mathematical algorithm placed in a game is never truly random because it is man made.


Not necessarily. They could be using a true hardware RNG instead of a software pRNG. I have a feeling that they're using a software RNG, since it's plenty random for a game, but they might have a true RNG if they care enough.
Kilrayn
Caldari Provisions
#6 - 2011-12-20 22:42:15 UTC
mxzf wrote:
TriadSte wrote:
Ah may I point out your totally incorrect.

You see, this game is man made and any mathematical algorithm placed in a game is never truly random because it is man made.


Not necessarily. They could be using a true hardware RNG instead of a software pRNG. I have a feeling that they're using a software RNG, since it's plenty random for a game, but they might have a true RNG if they care enough.

There is only one logical conclusion at this point. Unless you rub Buddha's belly 7 times counter-clockwise before you warp to the sig, you will get nothing.

"Music is a mysterious thing. Sometimes it makes people remember things they do not expect. Many thoughts, feelings, memories... things almost forgotten... Regardless of whether the listener desires to remember or not." - Citan Uzuki, Xenogears
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2011-12-20 22:43:05 UTC
In a game like Eve, any reasonable pseudo-random number generator is basically as good as real random numbers because of the non-deterministic state of the game and the number of actors drawing from the pool of randomness.

Pseudo-random numbers are only a problem in highly deterministic games like Civ, where you can reload and watch the "random" things happen the exact same way.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#8 - 2011-12-20 23:33:02 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Bah, was hoping for a new thread for fun times.

Oh well, nice post OP.



What he said.

Bah. :DirtKick:

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2011-12-20 23:39:16 UTC
It **is** a very good book.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#10 - 2011-12-20 23:50:58 UTC
Hope it's a good read I just ordered it :)

You may enjoy Critical Mass: How on thing leads to another by Philip Ball, very interesting discussions about complex systems and how they exhibit similar behavior at certain complexities.

I can't help myself but comment on randomness as it's something I study. Hardware RNC devices are normally 2 or more quartz clocks whose values are used in an algorithm to calculate a value. I'm thinking they would be using the standard system clock approach here though.

The interesting point is that if we live in a completely finite universe, with no external influences, determinism states that nothing is random as the cause of any event can be predicted by measuring the system before the event and extrapolating the data using the rules applied to the system.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#11 - 2011-12-21 13:31:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Hell, a lot of RNGs generate entropy from the packets coming in on the network interface. Might not be mathematically random, but close enough for government work.


Oh, and Determinism breaks down when you get to the Quantum level. Welcome to a universe that's just a decomposition wave of qbits.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Luh Windan
green fish hat bang bang
#12 - 2011-12-21 13:45:48 UTC
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:


You may enjoy Critical Mass: How on thing leads to another by Philip Ball, very interesting discussions about complex systems and how they exhibit similar behavior at certain complexities.


I did enjoy it very much.

FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:


The interesting point is that if we live in a completely finite universe, with no external influences, determinism states that nothing is random as the cause of any event can be predicted by measuring the system before the event and extrapolating the data using the rules applied to the system.


Well yes but of course the model to find out what will happen is likely to be as complex as the original system.

I will leave Jorge Luis Borges to comment on that: http://classes.warnercnr.colostate.edu/nr575/files/2011/01/exactitude-in-science.pdf
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#13 - 2011-12-21 13:58:44 UTC
I'm saving this thread and intend to link to it whenever this delightful topic is brought up by the uneducated citizens of Eve.
Arctur Vallfar
Knights Adamant
#14 - 2011-12-21 15:35:43 UTC
Didn't a wise man once say there is no such thing as luck?
Philip Flatline
Lousy T-Shirt Corp
#15 - 2011-12-21 17:24:01 UTC
Arctur Vallfar wrote:
Didn't a wise man once say there is no such thing as luck?
The man wasn't so wise because everything is about luck. Your actions only influence your chance to get lucky or not.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#16 - 2011-12-21 18:19:44 UTC
Philip Flatline wrote:
Arctur Vallfar wrote:
Didn't a wise man once say there is no such thing as luck?
The man wasn't so wise because everything is about luck. Your actions only influence your chance to get lucky or not.


This farmer had only one horse, and one day the horse ran away. The neighbors came to condole over his terrible loss. The farmer said, "What makes you think it is so terrible?"

A month later, the horse came home--this time bringing with her two beautiful wild horses. The neighbors became excited at the farmer's good fortune. Such lovely strong horses! The farmer said, "What makes you think this is good fortune?"

The farmer's son was thrown from one of the wild horses and broke his leg. All the neighbors were very distressed. Such bad luck! The farmer said, "What makes you think it is bad?"

A war came, and every able-bodied man was conscripted and sent into battle. Only the farmer's son, because he had a broken leg, remained. The neighbors congratulated the farmer. "What makes you think this is good?" said the farmer.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tabernack en Chasteaux
Phoibe Enterprises
#17 - 2011-12-21 21:06:59 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

This farmer had only one horse, and one day the horse ran away. The neighbors came to condole over his terrible loss. The farmer said, "What makes you think it is so terrible?"

A month later, the horse came home--this time bringing with her two beautiful wild horses. The neighbors became excited at the farmer's good fortune. Such lovely strong horses! The farmer said, "What makes you think this is good fortune?"

The farmer's son was thrown from one of the wild horses and broke his leg. All the neighbors were very distressed. Such bad luck! The farmer said, "What makes you think it is bad?"

A war came, and every able-bodied man was conscripted and sent into battle. Only the farmer's son, because he had a broken leg, remained. The neighbors congratulated the farmer. "What makes you think this is good?" said the farmer.


I love this and will soon be quoting it to all my friends. Source?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#18 - 2011-12-21 22:16:19 UTC
Tabernack en Chasteaux wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

This farmer had only one horse, and one day the horse ran away. The neighbors came to condole over his terrible loss. The farmer said, "What makes you think it is so terrible?"

A month later, the horse came home--this time bringing with her two beautiful wild horses. The neighbors became excited at the farmer's good fortune. Such lovely strong horses! The farmer said, "What makes you think this is good fortune?"

The farmer's son was thrown from one of the wild horses and broke his leg. All the neighbors were very distressed. Such bad luck! The farmer said, "What makes you think it is bad?"

A war came, and every able-bodied man was conscripted and sent into battle. Only the farmer's son, because he had a broken leg, remained. The neighbors congratulated the farmer. "What makes you think this is good?" said the farmer.


I love this and will soon be quoting it to all my friends. Source?


It's an old Chinese philosophical story, so you'll find tons of sources and variations if you google. The original way I heard it the farmer's line was "Maybe" and here's a link to that version i just found.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#19 - 2011-12-22 00:50:15 UTC
Haha, you sly devil.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Powie XIII
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-12-22 03:32:44 UTC
Damn it, i was about to tell him to self destruct. It seems that isn't necessary.

“They see me trollin', they hatin'”
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