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Jovian Protocol

Author
Mark726
Project Compass Holdings
#1 - 2016-07-11 19:20:43 UTC
Greetings fellow Empyreans,

I wanted to follow up on a discussion that arose at the Seyllin Conference yesterday. At a panel concerning exploration in New Eden among myself, many members of Signal Cartel, and a few other nonaligned parties, the discussion quickly sidetracked to to a discussion concerning what exactly would happen should the rest of New Eden ever gain access, accidentally or otherwise, to Jove space. It was quickly decided that it might be in the interests of all concerned to come to an agreement beforehand of how to tackle such an eventuality, so if it ever does occur, it can be implemented quickly. Various concerns included who would coordinate research and salvage efforts, who would be in charge of securing supply lines, and who would provide front-line defenses against any remaining active Jovian defenses. And so, to follow up on that discussion, I bring it to the Summit to see if some basic ideas might be hashed out.

A few caveats and thoughts are in order, of course:

1) This protocol would only be in effect among agreed parties, of course. While I'd like to see the Protocol adopted as widely as possible (in order to ensure the orderly exploration of any Jovian technology and minimize the possibility that the technology would fall to only a select few), it seems unlikely that everyone would agree to be under the Protocol's umbrella and even more unlikely that we would be able to prevent poachers or other malcontents if they make a concerted effort.

2) Depending on how we gain access to Jovian space (should it ever occur), it seems unlikely that CONCORD (or the Jovian heirs apparent, the Society of Conscious Thought) will be pleased at the prospect of the Empyrean community gaining access to Jovian technology, especially considering that CONCORD's primary overwatch capabilities to our community derive from Jovian technology and I doubt they relish the idea of losing that advantage. Steps may need to be taken to ensure that they cannot interfere with our research.

I welcome the input of anyone who may wish to join this Protocol and look forward to any thoughts and insights the Summit may have. Also, if a prior agreement is already in place, I apologize for intruding on that agreement, but the participants yesterday were all unaware.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#2 - 2016-07-11 19:40:37 UTC
Good evening, Mark! A pleasure to have had you on the panel!

I'll admit I'm not sure how the panel pivoted to the discussion of a Jovian Protocol, but it's certainly an interesting basis for discussion on how we would establish norms for colonization of newly-discovered space. So-- let's consider the Jovian Protocol a framework for discussion these sorts of things generally.

My current concern is that once a path is found, major powers are likely to attempt to follow that path in. The ability to rapidly construct necessary infrastructure for habitation and defense is a primary point of interest.

I have a busy day ahead of me, so let me think on this a while. We'll also get this discussion forwarded to parties who were present at SeyCon.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Markus Vulpine
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-07-11 19:51:39 UTC
As I stated on the panel yesterday, I welcome this kind of preparation and collaboration. As a Force Expeditionary FC for Signal Cartel, I happily offer any assistance I can provide, barring any conflicting orders from my CEO, Mynxee.

As an aside, given that my expertise is in force exploration, I have far more experience with combat than diplomacy. Any penetration of Jove space should obviously be considered a venture into a potentially hostile environment; however, I would argue that we cannot approach this in the same manner as we would approach the exploration of, say, Drifter or Sleeper wormholes. In those instances, the type of inhabitants and their hostile intent is clear. The state of Jove space and the unknown state of the Jove Empire, however, are still unclear and there may be a measure of diplomacy required that force expeditionary specialists like myself are not best-equipped to manage.

In short, I simply want to emphasize the need for a diverse team; a collection of scientists, historians, combat specialists, engineers, etc. who all feel as though their input is needed and appreciated. There is no single "correct" way to approach this operation, not least because we technically have no idea what we will encounter should we be able to access Jove space.
Mark726
Project Compass Holdings
#4 - 2016-07-11 20:05:20 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
I'll admit I'm not sure how the panel pivoted to the discussion of a Jovian Protocol, but it's certainly an interesting basis for discussion on how we would establish norms for colonization of newly-discovered space. So-- let's consider the Jovian Protocol a framework for discussion these sorts of things generally.


I have to admit, I was rather surprised at the turn the discussion took as well, but given everyone's interest in it, I thought it best to bring it out in the open for a more general discussion.

Quote:
My current concern is that once a path is found, major powers are likely to attempt to follow that path in. The ability to rapidly construct necessary infrastructure for habitation and defense is a primary point of interest.


That may be inevitable. I suspect it would be more in our interests to ensure that our back ranks are protected rather than trying to prevent others from following us through. Any penetration into Jovian space is unlikely to be the last.

Markus Vulpine wrote:
In short, I simply want to emphasize the need for a diverse team; a collection of scientists, historians, combat specialists, engineers, etc. who all feel as though their input is needed and appreciated. There is no single "correct" way to approach this operation, not least because we technically have no idea what we will encounter should we be able to access Jove space.


Well said! In order to make this work, we would need to draw on experts from a wide variety of fields to make sure that we can quickly and efficiently move in.
Yarosara Ruil
#5 - 2016-07-11 20:11:47 UTC
If per chance I found myself in Jovian space, I have just the protocol for such a situation. Ahem...~

I call it the "take everything not nailed to the ground, sell the valuable stuff to the highest bidder and use the reset for advancing my own science while keeping my findings from Miss Makoto and her cronies" protocol. I feel this is the absolute best course of action. I've run the simulation and the crunched numbers coming out spell out a smiley face.
Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#6 - 2016-07-11 20:19:20 UTC
Mark726 wrote:
to make sure that we can quickly and efficiently move in.


Maybe I missed something by not being at SeyCon, but shouldn't we be asking ourselves whether or not we should even be moving in? After all, the Jove are as much an empire as any of the big 4, SOCT 'succession' or not, and have been more than benevolent and (seemingly) peace-desiring in the past. Sure, the Sansha kinda took over that system or two, but they've said they have that under control.

Why should we go raid and squat in their home? They're just as much people as the rest of us. At the least, if a large amount of Jove tech were ever to be accumulated by any one group, it would most likely completely destabilize the cluster.

If we ever get access into Jove space, I believe the wisest and most ethical thing to do is to just quietly close the door again.

Leave the Jove as they wish to be--forgotten and alone.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka

Slayer Liberator
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2016-07-11 20:51:38 UTC
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
If per chance I found myself in Jovian space, I have just the protocol for such a situation. Ahem...~

I call it the "take everything not nailed to the ground, sell the valuable stuff to the highest bidder and use the reset for advancing my own science while keeping my findings from Miss Makoto and her cronies" protocol. I feel this is the absolute best course of action. I've run the simulation and the crunched numbers coming out spell out a smiley face.

The beauty of Gallente technology is that with drones and plasma we can melt nails and take stuff even faster
Kaia Starchaser
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#8 - 2016-07-11 21:04:31 UTC
When we were talking during the conference at Seyllin, it never even had crossed my mind that the Jove Space was a passing glance. Being new to the galactic community, Jove Space was cut off long before I was a capsuleer. Still, the concepts of getting out there, and having just recently started itching at living in Anoikis, its something to prepare for.

I’d have to agree with Markus, I’d be there so long as it doesn’t conflict with the orders of Mynxee. Working to establish a beachhead, as it were, or ‘habitation and defense’ as Makoto eloquently stated, is the primary focus. There are people within Signal Cartel that are theorizing survival means, without a land line, no POS, nor citadel, in hostile territory.

Any thoughts on this matter, could prove useful.
Yarosara Ruil
#9 - 2016-07-11 22:48:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Yarosara Ruil
Slayer Liberator wrote:

The beauty of Gallente technology is that with drones and plasma we can melt nails and take stuff even faster


I was hoping that we would make it to the third page before anyone noticed my misused malaprop. Mostly because that in the cold vacuum of space there are no discernable surfaces for which to nail objects to and the fact that lootability of said objects is 100% determined by their volume and mass, and by how many fanipacks your ship comes from installed with.

That, and because Jove have this lousy habit of making their trash invisible to human eyes and ship sensors. How did the Angels manage to get by this hurdle is a mystery for the ages.
Slayer Liberator
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2016-07-12 02:14:23 UTC
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
Slayer Liberator wrote:

The beauty of Gallente technology is that with drones and plasma we can melt nails and take stuff even faster


I was hoping that we would make it to the third page before anyone noticed my misused malaprop. Mostly because that in the cold vacuum of space there are no discernable surfaces for which to nail objects to and the fact that lootability of said objects is 100% determined by their volume and mass, and by how many fanipacks your ship comes from installed with.

That, and because Jove have this lousy habit of making their trash invisible to human eyes and ship sensors. How did the Angels manage to get by this hurdle is a mystery for the ages.

I can just take the cargo where it died and throw a bucket of paint on it then take it apart take
Dorian Reu
Advanced Materials Research and Development
Luther Inc.
#11 - 2016-07-12 02:39:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorian Reu
During the SeyCon 5 Conference, I believe that we called for two parallel paths to be taken:

1.) To set forth an Accord of Cooperation, between our like minded Corporations, to actively search for access to Jovian space and to prepare for the time when this becomes a reality.

2.) To actively request information from the Sisters of Eve for any, and all, data they may have relating to the Drifters, or access to Jovian Space.

These procedures should be set in work immediately. To begin this process, I propose a conference be convened, for all interested parties, to document a Pact of mutual goals and Teamwork to allow this work to commence.

Also during, or after this conference, a Request for Information (RFI) must be drafted to formally document our desire to garner information from the Sisters. We may, or may not, receive anything from them but they should be placed on notice that we are aware of their escapades in the Drifter Hives, as evidenced by their Flotillas. That we are aware of the years of work they needed to preform to create the Stations of Thera, and how they hid this from the People of New Eden. And that we are aware that they know much, much, more than they are telling us, and we need this information today.

In closing, I'd like to state that I thoroughly enjoyed participating in the SeyCon 5 Conference and if I had only one takeaway from it, it would be... Only working together, we will make this dream a reality.

Signal Cartel Member Liaison

Producer for The Neocom Podcast

Eden's Lost

Haria Haritimado
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#12 - 2016-07-12 11:22:40 UTC
Dorian Reu wrote:
During the SeyCon 5 Conference, I believe that we called for two parallel paths to be taken.


Dear Ms. Reu,
Fellow Capsuleers,


The panel report can be found here as a reference for what was already thought and said. Indeed, the discussion darted in an unexpected direction with quiet some enthusiasm.

As to the topic at hand, I think that both, respected Mark726's concept of a 'Jovian Protocol' as well as respected Mynxee's 'Advance Directive' are pointing in the same direction. And there are plenty of reasons to engage in such thinking. The five Drifter Hive systems among them.

While Mark726 focus on the matter itself and the role of CONCORD and the Empires, Mynxee's directive (which reflected the general opinion of the panel) also stressed the aspect of mutual engagement and political agreements between those concerned with spearhead exploration. Both aspects, doing it right and doing it together, seem to be important cornerstones of the initiative.

As I already discussed briefly with my CEO, I would like to add a basic idea to the topic. I would expect that if we have the chance to slip into a new area of space, it is propably through a very small window for a very limited time. Remembering the chaotic and hard to follow movements in the early days of the newly discovered unidentified wormholes, I think it would be helpful to have a reaction plan which takes this into account. Precisely: 16 hours reaction time and the limited mass of one single wormhole. I encourage to start from there and think about possible expeditionary forces which could actually enter and take on such an opportunity. Depending on mass restrictions, different scenarios for the Advance Directive would emerge. Additionaly, a quick and reliable chain of notice among the parties following the Protocol would also be necessary.

Yours sincerely,

Haria Haritimado
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#13 - 2016-07-12 13:33:15 UTC
Mr. Mark,

I believe that in order to reach the Jove space without their consent you should send there a gate building ship. The travel will take several years and might not even reach the destination in our lifetime. I don't think that the FTL communication with the ship will be available during the transit as well, and desire of any capsuleers to participate in such project for me looks doubtful, as well as ability for capsuleers to build such a ship without CONCORD and other Empires notice.

Shall you achieve this, I still believe that this enterprise shouldn't be taken: after all, it will be technically an invasion into Jove sovereign space. If they want to be left alone, I think it will be polite to just leave them alone. Think about this, what would happen if you would lock and barricade your house door and someone would climb instead into your house through the window. What would you do?... I would shoot them down for sure. And I can bet my hookbil that Jove would shoot you as well, that would mean that mission of gate building is probably doomed to failure before it even starts.

Would you send instead a whole military expedition to guard a gate building ship?...

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Markus Vulpine
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2016-07-12 14:45:53 UTC
I would argue that this is hardly an invasion. The 'barricade' analogy is a false analogy (formal fallacy). We do not have enough evidence to conclude that the Jove, while traditionally secretive, have effectively barricaded themselves in their own space. We do, however, recognize that we have lost communication with our neighbors and we have clear evidence of a cataclysmic event within their space (Caroline's Star). While we do not have a "right" nor a "mandate" to penetrate Jove space to determine the state of their empire, we have vested interest in their welfare as co-occupants of the Cluster and should respond to evaluate their welfare.

Recovery of artifacts should come secondary to determining the operational status of the Jove civilization and its peoples. Priority should be contact and assessment of the presumed disaster conditions; rendering aid where possible (barring any conflicting wishes from the Jove peoples encountered.)

As far as the postulated danger of Jovian assets opening fire on this expedition, that concern is insufficient to invalidate the attempt. If the expedition is all-volunteer and the inherent and potential dangers are disclosed in-full to participants, then threat of mortality and/or morbidity becomes a perfectly acceptable condition of the exploration.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#15 - 2016-07-12 17:08:55 UTC
From an archaeological viewpoint.

Don't touch a god damned thing, if you make it to Jove Space. And if you do, then stay there. Do not return to this side of space.

Why am I saying this ?

Because: The Jovian attitude to what they laughably call "the lesser races", is that we "can't handle" such "dangerous" technologies as exist in the universe. E.g. alleged "Terran" devices.

Which means that any advanced devices are likely to have heavy security protecting them, with the intent of preventing them falling into capsuleer hands.

And given the tendency towards grabbing shiny things that a lot of capsuleers have, then, well, there are going to be all sorts of booby traps all over Jove space.

Which will include cybernetic implants. Do Not Touch Any Cyberimplant found in Jove Space. Don't even look at the damn thing. It likely contains some kind of brain-control device, an infomorphic subversion tool, or something, that will take over your mind, and make you do things the Jove want you to do.

So don't touch any damn implants. And if you do. Stay in Jove space. Do not return and infect everywhere else.


Also, the context of any artifacts is supremely important. For example, if presented with a statue, then an archaeologist such as myself, could tell you what culture likely made it, and a possible period of time when it was made. But not much more than that. Because the statue in isolation lacks context. If you say the statue was found with 10 others in what looked like a temple, then that tells me a lot more about the statue, and I could offer an opinion on what the statue represents, what it was used for, and who the intended audience were. If the statue was found in what looked like a private residence, then well, what the statue represents, what it was used for, and who the audience were, are completely different.

So, record as much as possible about the context of any artifacts. Because without the context, understanding will be slow to come.


Finally. Don't touch any damn cyberimplants. I know I already mentioned this, but it's important enough to state again.

Seriously.

Don't touch the cyberimplants.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Slayer Liberator
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2016-07-12 17:14:47 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
From an archaeological viewpoint.

Don't touch a god damned thing, if you make it to Jove Space. And if you do, then stay there. Do not return to this side of space.

Why am I saying this ?

Because: The Jovian attitude to what they laughably call "the lesser races", is that we "can't handle" such "dangerous" technologies as exist in the universe. E.g. alleged "Terran" devices.

Which means that any advanced devices are likely to have heavy security protecting them, with the intent of preventing them falling into capsuleer hands.

And given the tendency towards grabbing shiny things that a lot of capsuleers have, then, well, there are going to be all sorts of booby traps all over Jove space.

Which will include cybernetic implants. Do Not Touch Any Cyberimplant found in Jove Space. Don't even look at the damn thing. It likely contains some kind of brain-control device, an infomorphic subversion tool, or something, that will take over your mind, and make you do things the Jove want you to do.

So don't touch any damn implants. And if you do. Stay in Jove space. Do not return and infect everywhere else.


Also, the context of any artifacts is supremely important. For example, if presented with a statue, then an archaeologist such as myself, could tell you what culture likely made it, and a possible period of time when it was made. But not much more than that. Because the statue in isolation lacks context. If you say the statue was found with 10 others in what looked like a temple, then that tells me a lot more about the statue, and I could offer an opinion on what the statue represents, what it was used for, and who the intended audience were. If the statue was found in what looked like a private residence, then well, what the statue represents, what it was used for, and who the audience were, are completely different.

So, record as much as possible about the context of any artifacts. Because without the context, understanding will be slow to come.


Finally. Don't touch any damn cyberimplants. I know I already mentioned this, but it's important enough to state again.

Seriously.

Don't touch the cyberimplants.

Now I need to touch them
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#17 - 2016-07-12 17:25:51 UTC
Slayer Liberator wrote:
Now I need to touch them


If you do, I'm going to get Jason Galente to massage you with vegetable oil. Which will leave you confused about a great many things.

PSYCH !

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Dorian Reu
Advanced Materials Research and Development
Luther Inc.
#18 - 2016-07-12 17:57:42 UTC
wrote:
Haria Haritimado
As I already discussed briefly with my CEO, I would like to add a basic idea to the topic. I would expect that if we have the chance to slip into a new area of space, it is propably through a very small window for a very limited time. Remembering the chaotic and hard to follow movements in the early days of the newly discovered unidentified wormholes, I think it would be helpful to have a reaction plan which takes this into account. Precisely: 16 hours reaction time and the limited mass of one single wormhole. I encourage to start from there and think about possible expeditionary forces which could actually enter and take on such an opportunity. Depending on mass restrictions, different scenarios for the Advance Directive would emerge. Additionaly, a quick and reliable chain of notice among the parties following the Protocol would also be necessary.


Ms. Haritimado, May I call you Haria? I wholeheartedly agree with the Mass limitations that may befall this quest. Even more of a reason to combine forces to reduce the relative mass required for multiple teams. Also, I agree, the relative quick response that will be needed to accomplish this lends itself to teamwork and communication.

That being said, I do not wish to forget the need to formally request information form the Sisters. Even if it is an unfruitful effort, their silence may tell us more than we expect.

Signal Cartel Member Liaison

Producer for The Neocom Podcast

Eden's Lost

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#19 - 2016-07-12 20:37:13 UTC
I expect we'll execute our standard "Let someone else get the stuff out of wherever it is and take it off THEM" protocol. it's by far the most cost effective strategy.,

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#20 - 2016-07-12 22:48:58 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
From an archaeological viewpoint.

Don't touch a god damned thing, if you make it to Jove Space. And if you do, then stay there. Do not return to this side of space.

Why am I saying this ?

Because: The Jovian attitude to what they laughably call "the lesser races", is that we "can't handle" such "dangerous" technologies as exist in the universe. E.g. alleged "Terran" devices.

Which means that any advanced devices are likely to have heavy security protecting them, with the intent of preventing them falling into capsuleer hands.

And given the tendency towards grabbing shiny things that a lot of capsuleers have, then, well, there are going to be all sorts of booby traps all over Jove space.

Which will include cybernetic implants. Do Not Touch Any Cyberimplant found in Jove Space. Don't even look at the damn thing. It likely contains some kind of brain-control device, an infomorphic subversion tool, or something, that will take over your mind, and make you do things the Jove want you to do.

So don't touch any damn implants. And if you do. Stay in Jove space. Do not return and infect everywhere else.


Also, the context of any artifacts is supremely important. For example, if presented with a statue, then an archaeologist such as myself, could tell you what culture likely made it, and a possible period of time when it was made. But not much more than that. Because the statue in isolation lacks context. If you say the statue was found with 10 others in what looked like a temple, then that tells me a lot more about the statue, and I could offer an opinion on what the statue represents, what it was used for, and who the intended audience were. If the statue was found in what looked like a private residence, then well, what the statue represents, what it was used for, and who the audience were, are completely different.

So, record as much as possible about the context of any artifacts. Because without the context, understanding will be slow to come.


Finally. Don't touch any damn cyberimplants. I know I already mentioned this, but it's important enough to state again.

Seriously.

Don't touch the cyberimplants.


True enough but if the SOCT is any indication of Jovian mentality then they seem like the sort of arrogant bastards who massively underrate the abilities of the rest of humanity. By all means exercise appropriate caution with potentially hazardous materials but I dont think we need to worry too much about vague warnings of 'things beyond the ken of man' until we have some sort of verifiable evidence.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

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