EVE General Discussion

Not all forms of PvP involve guns. There are battles between purely PvE players all the time. They may not officially declare "war" on each other - but Market PvP can get quite heated sometimes. Similarly miners competing for the same rocks have been known to use some pretty underhanded tricks to mine them out from their competition, or to prevent their competition from mining.

Sometimes non-violent Player vs Player competition is simply not sufficient however, and this has historically often lead to wars being declared for reasons of economic control. It happened more often than you might think. It was a large part of why mercenaries grew to be such a large part of the game.

Over time things have changed, and of course as of right now the best use of time for the majority of high sec wardeccers is just farming idiots for easy isk and killboard stats. It is an easy, reliable source of kills and income for them - and lets face it it is just about the only one left for large groups of PvP players in high sec. Given current game mechanics, they are in general *not able* to provide good value for the money it costs to hire them - and even when they are able to do so, the work available only requires a fraction of the players they have...Leaving a large idle population of un-needed "mercenaries" that their leadership needs to keep busy and happy. How do they do this? Blanket war-decs and hub-camping.

Could they take their large militant forces and go invade low-sec - or try to claim sovereign space in 0.0? Of course they could. But what, ultimately, would be the benefit? They would have *less* targets, worth *less* money. They would have more risk - because even the largest high-sec blob doesn't have enough players to take on *any* of the major Sov Space players. And if they did successfully take over a region of Low or Null space? They would have a home they didn't want to farm isk out of (via PvE), and no targets left to shoot.... So victory in Low or Null sec would be their ultimate defeat... So really the only logical path open to them is to double down on farming high-sec as hard as possible and *hope* that CCP changes mechanics to somehow make EVE fun for them again some day.

That being said - there are still smaller groups who can survive on focused war-decs and do not do blanket decs or hub-camping. I realize they are hard to find - but it isn't because they are inactive. It is just that 1-2 wars per week is a small needle in a haystack of large groups declaring hundreds per week. For this reason, people tend to just forget/ignore their existence - but some of them still have a small but noticeable impact upon the game in their own ways.



As for "being forced" to play a way that you don't want to... Nobody is forcing you to do anything. EVE is a sandbox and you are welcome to do anything you like. It is not an isolated sandbox, however, and everybody around you is also free to play the way they want to. And yes, it affects you, whether you want it to or not... But that is the nature of a shared sandbox.

Trust me, despite their insults and taunting - none of the hub-campers is actually mad at you for being a clueless idiot who chooses to fly in and give them free kills over and over. They are happy to take all the kills/loot you would like to throw at them.

Every once in a while some nulldude gets shot in highsec, yup. Expecting the lot of them to come all the way down to highsec just to watch PIRAT or whoever it is this time dock up is silly though -- I doubt anyone in [TEST] can be bothered and even the victim would be naught but perhaps "mildly annoyed".

In a "F'cking instalocking rats at the gate" kind of way.

That's my prediction- let wait and see how far off the mark I'll be ;-)

Well just as there is no incentive for the high sec wardeccers to move to low/null sec, as they can't get the content they desire there - there is no incentive for a large 0.0 entity to migrate to high sec either.

Despite the large amounts of PvP Combat involved - at its core Sov Space (and really 0.0 in general) is primarily about territorial control for the purposes of farming the isk of the region via PvE. Not all of the members participate in the PvE in any way - but in most successful groups they at least reap the benefits of their strong PvE financial core through ship replacement programs and other things that enable them to throw a lot more isk into battle than they would ever be able to field on their own.

Pulling the majority of their PvP force out of 0.0 would leave their territory vulnerable, without providing any of the financial PvE benefits that they desire. So similar to why it makes no sense for a high-sec mercenary to invade 0.0 - it makes no sense for a large 0.0 entity to take even an extended field trip to high sec *as a unit*.



Additionally, the official haulers of most large 0.0 entities are not *in* the alliance at all. Very nearly 100% of the losses suffered by large 0.0 groups in high sec are lone members off doing their own thing *without* the permission of their leadership. I suspect most of the leadership in question considers their ignoble deaths a fitting punishment for their neglect of duty.



edit: But yes, 0.0 pilots do seem to be much more prone to the hypocritical "Come to 0.0 then!" taunts, ridiculous though they are

My previous post dealt with why it is not a logical move for high sec wardeccing groups to move to 0.0.


As for why it makes no sense to visit - it is because you are correct - high sec groups are not equipped to deal with the tricks of 0.0 such as bubbles, capitals, etc.

And ***there is no reason for them to prepare themselves just for a short campaign***

It would cost them literally *trillions* of isk to buy supercapital characters and ships, plus capital characters + ships, etc - just to field the same equipment as a large 0.0 group. And then they would *still* be outnumbered 100 to 1... And all for 1 week of war? I think not...

It would realistically be a smaller lifestyle change for you to drop all of your sov to come fight in high sec for the week than to expect them to try to gear up to come fight you in 0.0. Get real. Neither one is ever going to happen.



As for the wars - as with all of their other wars they are just farming the idiots. 0.0 alliances have enough members that some idiots are inevitable - and the PvE pays so much that they can be very lucrative targets. The wars accomplish their goal nearly every single time - padding the killboards and the wallets.

I do agree it is ridiculous for them to brag about their kill records against 0.0 groups. But the wars themselves do serve their purpose.

I'm not seeing that much of a whine about HiSec here at all. There is a genuine concern over the very real War Dec being over used.

To me, it only is a 'whine' when someone wants something that is pretty universally accepted, removed without a 'cost' to removing it. It's fairly universally felt that the War Dec mechanism now has major issues with the loss of the Watchlist. So, while there may have been some gripy posts, it's really not a whine.

As to costs, I disagree with the comment that most HiSec people are unaware of it. Newer players not understanding HiSec generally come here, whine about it and get schooled, but once you realize how Hi-Lo-Null actually work, the cost part is fairly clear.

Where I see a lot of the whine now is from the crowd that wants to hunt carebears with little to no cost to themselves. That's the people that only want a 'cost' (call it a fee: 1 Gank Cat) to take down major targets with little risk of loss of their pod. Any Hauler or major Miner is fully aware of the cost of HiSec. So that's something of a Red Herring.

When it comes to NullSec, if you're already out there, you don't need to recruit more people to join you, they will come on their own. HiSec cost, like Jenn was alluding to, is actually substantial. The only reason experienced players stay in HiSec is because it fits their play style better than Lo or Null does.

BTW, Jenn, sorry for your loss of the VNI, did you follow up that with a return attack on the carrier with your buddies? Always up for a good story!

It is possible that all of the following are true:

1. Blanket war decs have always been around.
2. Blanket war decs have been increasing.
3. The removal of the watchlist has lead to an increase of blanket wardecs.

Further, noting 1 and 2 does not, in anyway, disprove 3.

there was a spike in wars, shortly after the watchlist went away.
that being the only relevant change to the relevant parties combined with the notion that
we said that there would be a mass decking hubhumping degenerates as farr as the eye could see before it went live
as it went live
and after it went live
we had a big flaming-pants-on-head hysterical thread about why the mercs shouldn't be allowed to do that.

i have been having this exact same discussion here every other day for literally months on end with different people, you are just the latest.

Just quoting that 1 line so Jenn aSide can see it =P


Anyway first of all - I agree with 100% of Jenn aSide's post above on this page. It isn't related to what I was talking about, but it *is* related to the OP, and he raised some good points. I would only add that many bittervets in the wardeccing corps (probably not all of their members, but quite a few) have similar disdain for the whiners in high sec....and while I don't think this starts any wars it certainly contributes to the enjoyment of suffering which so frightens so many carebears.


As for Drac's observation that most isk destroyed by high sec wardec corps comes from 0.0 alliances, and that the 0.0 alliances don't care:

- I still maintain that most of these losses aren't even the core industrial group of the alliance involved. They are lone members operating on their own with no direction from their superiors - just trying to earn extra isk for themselves.

- Also, even the ones who truly are the core logistics of their respective 0.0 groups...their profit margins are so high in 0.0 that they truly can shrug off the occasional loaded jump freighter loss as "no big deal". One of my friends is in a mid-size 0.0 coalition (that shall remain nameless) - and based on the prices he pays the corp haulers for his ships (compared to jita prices) and the number of ships his group loses weekly...I'd conservatively estimate that even in his mid-size group the average hauler is pulling in between 20-40 billion isk *every single week* when they have active operations going...And that is just from their hauling, let alone any PvE farming they may do on top of that in their sov space. So similar to the retriever pilot who "already mined more isk than that anyway"...they already made enough isk to pay for the JF 3x over, why worry about losing one once in a while? Just go buy the next one and get back to work.

But when I got a war dec by Vendetta before the watch list change I was one out of 231 I think. Anyway, but my point that the watch list removal was not the cause of blanket war decs, you pointed out the real reason which is what I thought it was but never directly said it, because I was looking for someone who was a merc to say it for obvious reasons.

Dracvlad,

My post was not an attack post. As usual you misunderstand me.

My post was a stop moaning and get on with it post, at no point did I say any of your points were 100% wrong. What I am saying is that your general attitude is about blaming CCP for issues like freighter bumping rather than suggesting/doing anything else you endorse the idea of changing the mechanics so its difficult/stops freighter bumping.

Of course you would view my post as an attack post, but if you read carefully you will have seen where I said "Dracvlad, you have the skills to change this" and I also said you should start something similar to Hub Zero, or create a corp/alliance specifically to fight these war deccers and gankers in hisec. I'm not sure how you saw it as an insult. What is stopping you from doing this by the way? Can't be bothered?

I realise it's not you coming up with these mechanic change ideas, but you sure do endorse them.

I remember the camper you speak of back in Stain, the one who was forced to use his friends accounts so that he could camp us? The shot caller could not stop me, I was still doing my work as usual I think I moved further up the pipe and found a clear system to rat and do combat sites. The shot caller was using 2 of his friends accounts plus his own all flying Sabre's, he still couldn't kill my cloaky hauler.

You say you were staying in 6Y so he would focus on you, This only stressed you out Drac, you chose this play style and you refused to try any other style. This is the problem, some of you Eve players flat out refuse to adapt to anything.

I'm not sure if you read this in my last post Drac, ill type it again, its up to you if you want to read and understand it. you are an extremely skillful person and you have the skills to influence people into changing this. Build your alliance up till you have some large fleets, wardec the the wardeccers, so that you and your fleets can kill them anytime. Expand your blue list and let them help you fund the war decs against the war deccers. Market and promote your ideas for change, let everyone know there is another way and get them to join you on your crusade.

Lots of folk on this thread are of the opinion you want the game to adapt to you rather than you adapting to the game. I see that you're calling me ignorant, I don't think so.. ignorance is not even bothering to try and adapt to the rigors of Eve.