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[118.7] Warp Bubble Dragging Change

First post First post
Author
Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#121 - 2016-07-02 01:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
The emergence of Citadels on gates as you describe is a strong indication that people want MORE ways to secure their space and have more control over who enters their space, not less. Is it a design decision to make people feel like their sov is not their own? I do not understand the purpose of this proposed change.

In addition, give us a way to stop nullified ships. Personally, I'd like to see anchored bubbles which are being entosed catch nullified ships. With wormholes and interceptors and T3s there is just no feasible way to lock down a constellation and force a fight at the entry.

Please explain the design goals more clearly. At the moment, it feels like you are saying, "Please use these great new citadel tools! But only exactly as we tell you and obviously not for anything practically useful like trying to protect your space." Players are giving you a very clear message about what they want to be able to do with structures. I think you should listen.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Rain6637
NulzSec
#122 - 2016-07-02 02:30:38 UTC
Nadarob Skillane
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#123 - 2016-07-02 02:45:06 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Players would rather keep their exploits? You don't say


How is it an exploit?

Bubbles will catch you if they are placed less than 1000km from the gate.
I spent quite a while finding out their exact range due to the grid size increase - took me dropping more than a few bubbles to get it exact.
I then put up a citadel and used that game MECHANIC - not exploit - to set up a nice bubble trap by my citadel.
I was one of the first, if not THE first to do the citadel bubble trap - I was certainly the first to expand it to encompass every celestial warpin to the gate.

Please dont call it an exploit when its a game mechanic that is easily overcome by a single ceptor setting a ping for your Null Sec roam.
Hell, you dont even NEED that. there is a person in Amarr or Jita selling bookmarks for most regions in null. Buy them and his bookmarks will avoid most citadel bubble traps.
Just because you are too lazy to counteract the trap does not mean the trap itself is an exploit.

By the way, the guy above you who posted is from PH.
I have probably killed more PH in my citadel than all other corps combined.
He isnt complaining, and quite often when I catch someone, their response in local generally a 'wow - nice trap' - apart from the few salty tears (usually from Goons)
Trajan Unknown
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#124 - 2016-07-02 03:14:08 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

The current range that warp bubbles are effective (how far from your destination they can pull you out of warp) is a little unclear. This has lead to some 'interesting' possibilities, such as bubble camping a gate with a citadel.

With the 118.7 patch, we are considering changing the maximum distance for a warp bubble (mobile, probe or hictor bubble) to effect a warp to be 500km.

This means only warp disruption bubbles that are 500km in-front or behind your warp destination, which are inline with your warp, will pull you out of warp early or drag you.

What do you think? We'd love your feedback!



To me this is another change for the people who cry all day every day because they can´t warp straight to gates anymore.
Sure, the grid changes with citadels and drag bubbles can be really nasty but than it´s the space of the people who are living in there, it should be nasty to pass through. I don´t like it at all and no, I am not sitting in a citadel or camping a gate at all. I simply like to feel "unsafe" when I fly through hostile space. It´s easy enough already with the local still available and easy to make bookmarks.
Temijin
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#125 - 2016-07-02 04:59:38 UTC
Hate this! Nul is dangerous and eats the foolish. Scout...bounce off celestial so....travel in an Indy. Please stop reacting to whiners. They never stop as you should know very well by now CCP.
Ruby Gnollo
#126 - 2016-07-02 08:29:33 UTC
Since you asked on Twitter for comments, let's express some bitter comments I would have kept for myself if you hadn't.

Since warp bubbles & disruptors are mostly for NS, whatever CCP may want to do for them isn't of great importance, since the vast majority of Eve just don't mess with NS. For such matters, you might just ask the Council of Null-Sec Management, where you'll find lots of people having lots of great ideas for these specific gameplays. And I'm not even joking : cause you know, when these guys are unhappy, they burn things (elsewhere). So please, just make them happier every day.

But if you're seriously asking a question, here's mine : since nobody has any clue about what CCP's trying to achieve proposing these changes, how could anyone seriously answer ? In real life, changes proposals are motivated. Most of the time, after some evaluation period, metrics are made to see if the implemented changes had the expected effect.

This is exactly what CCP did recently with daily quests : trying things for some reason, getting a few metrics, and heading back to check the results. But of course, there's prolly no reason to resort to such serious methods for marginal gameplays like Null Sec's.
Nortal Aldent
Hate By Design Inc.
#127 - 2016-07-02 09:08:17 UTC
I don't see why this is needed. From the responses here I'm not alone. What started this idea?
Ben Ishikela
#128 - 2016-07-02 09:46:52 UTC
500km is an aweful change for reasons, that some already mentioned.

There are other options:

limited time on bubbles.
dragging range depending on bubble.
inaccuracy when dragging. ( d=0.0001 deviation on distance squared and 1000km dragged ---> 0.0001*1000^2=100km km off from normal spot in a random direction (yes, that means out of the bubble)....... on a 100km-drag thats just 1km.)
A hic bubble generator on citadels so it has to be manned AND vulnerable for these games.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.

Je'sus Quintana
Doomheim
#129 - 2016-07-02 11:25:43 UTC
People here are crying about breaking the sandbox. Well the space flight isnt actually a sandbox anyway, you need a celestial to warp from to avoid most bubbles, but in some systems there are no celestials to warp from.

What i mean by that the space flight not being sandbox is that you need a target to warp to, you cant just warp into a random spot on the map. If we want to leave the bubbles as they are give us true free space flight without having to bookmark 20 safe spots in every system.
Hairpins Blueprint
Perkone
Caldari State
#130 - 2016-07-02 12:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Hairpins Blueprint
Holocauster was a bit too good to start with. Good change. Now just put 48H life on bubles like on MTU and all legit with bubbles : )
Anthar Thebess
#131 - 2016-07-02 12:22:44 UTC
Je'sus Quintana wrote:
People here are crying about breaking the sandbox. Well the space flight isnt actually a sandbox anyway, you need a celestial to warp from to avoid most bubbles, but in some systems there are no celestials to warp from.

What i mean by that the space flight not being sandbox is that you need a target to warp to, you cant just warp into a random spot on the map. If we want to leave the bubbles as they are give us true free space flight without having to bookmark 20 safe spots in every system.


Use standard trick , and make a warpin for youself.
IF you don't have enough cap, ship will stop half way,
Simply abuse some mechanic, to cap out yourself and make your own ping spot 1 AU near gate
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2016-07-02 13:17:29 UTC
What is wrong with it, is the same thing that's wrong with a lot of session changes and landing on/off grid related stuff:

TARGET IS INVULNERABLE.

There are similar situations, where for example you see a command destroyer break its cloak, spool up its jumpdrive and eventually sit 100km from you talking smack while you still haven't gotten the chance to lock the damn thing. Because :invulnerable:.

Between instawarping ceptors, nullified T3s, small craft glitching a few seconds of invulnerability on their side, what we don't need is a colossal structure pipebombing you without a chance to shoot back. And I don't mean going out of our way to back back around 5 AM for the rest of the week-- I mean at the exact same time it's shooting at us!

I like the idea. Bubbles were originally supposed to catch on-grid anyway, back when grids weren't thousands of km. Consider this a belated bugfix.
Minty Aroma
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#133 - 2016-07-02 13:28:40 UTC
Raging Beaver wrote:
Introducing a hard cap doesn't seem like a good solution (if anything, it seems a bit lazy). As I presume, the main objective of this change would be to get rid of the gatecamping Fortizars, maybe disallow anchoring bubbles within - say, 100km of the citadels?


You'll want to bubble citadels when attacking though, to stop people from leaving or coming into the citadel, so that will put the attackers at a bit disadvantage just to fix a one sided exploit.
Zhele Jamohrr
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#134 - 2016-07-02 14:47:44 UTC
Nortal Aldent wrote:
I don't see why this is needed. From the responses here I'm not alone. What started this idea?


People recently out of sov are unsurprisingly upset that it's now slightly riskier to travel in sov. Also unsurprisingly, I prefer current mechanics.

@thread:

To my knowledge, all the things which work to avoid bubble ganks work to avoid citadel ganks: proper scouting; warping to popular destinations from uncommon positions; jump drives; hardening up; staying in Empire space. Nerfing bubble pull range is also nerfing the now-increased importance of the fleet scout (which saddens me, since I enjoy that role).

Citadels are such potent force multipliers that they increase the frequency with which one must employ the aforementioned tactics, and this is supposedly a problem. To my mind, this is a good thing. It's all the more reason to assemble spacefriends and divvy up roles and fight for valuable pipes (lowsec is still there for the more risk-averse of the lone wolves).

It's good that sovereign space is now riskier to move through. Even as a frequent explorer of other groups' sov null (in non-immune covops, no less) I still prefer the current mechanics. It means I'm slightly less efficient at exploration but I nonetheless find it more engaging since I have to be a touch warier.
Ruby Gnollo
#135 - 2016-07-02 15:18:09 UTC
Zhele Jamohrr wrote:

People recently out of sov are unsurprisingly upset that it's now slightly riskier to travel in sov. Also unsurprisingly, I prefer current mechanics.


This perfecly sums it up : this change only matters for players factions at war for market shares. So, the player base just shouldn't care. CCP should just pursue its own interest and please manage the bulllies gangs they created adequately. But yet I wonder what's the point of the CNSM if not to handle players factions conflicts.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#136 - 2016-07-02 16:53:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
This is a bad change:

1. Circumventing citadel bubbles is incredibly trivial. For any roaming gang all they need is a ceptor to scout ahead (something most fleets already do) or a ping on the gate.
2. The citadel bubbles literally give a forewarning since they are announced system wide. If one is on your out-gate, you should probably consider warping to a ping or come from a random direction. This is unlike normal bubble camps which you won't know until you are in dscan range, something not all gates offer.
3. The citadels must be manned, if noone is in local you are probably safe to warp anywhere.

This is catering to roaming gangs who want easy access to hostile space. I use citadels this way as well, but I also encounter them when roaming into e.g. Horde space where there many citadels on their gates. I don't complain when people have the homefield advantage, only if they use something OP. Drag-bubble citadels that can be countered by any ceptor or gate ping are not OP, they simply catch those with no foresight in checking their out gate before pressing warp in nullsec.
Blue Ice
Incognito Mode
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#137 - 2016-07-02 22:18:55 UTC
Please don't implement this change,

As well as what Ammzi said above, this change makes it impossible to anchor a bubble on a POS without it being in range of guns on the POS. Is this really what this change is intending to do?
Koenig Yazria
Adversity.
Snuffed Out
#138 - 2016-07-02 22:41:37 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
This is a bad change:

1. Circumventing citadel bubbles is incredibly trivial. For any roaming gang all they need is a ceptor to scout ahead (something most fleets already do) or a ping on the gate.
2. The citadel bubbles literally give a forewarning since they are announced system wide. If one is on your out-gate, you should probably consider warping to a ping or come from a random direction. This is unlike normal bubble camps which you won't know until you are in dscan range, something not all gates offer.
3. The citadels must be manned, if noone is in local you are probably safe to warp anywhere.

This is catering to roaming gangs who want easy access to hostile space. I use citadels this way as well, but I also encounter them when roaming into e.g. Horde space where there many citadels on their gates. I don't complain when people have the homefield advantage, only if they use something OP. Drag-bubble citadels that can be countered by any ceptor or gate ping are not OP, they simply catch those with no foresight in checking their out gate before pressing warp in nullsec.



https://zkillboard.com/kill/54906382/

https://zkillboard.com/kill/54906342/

Nullified Tengu hunter warped past and failed to notice.

But hey, gotta cater to the least capable because this is a thing nowadays.
Rezae Nagaken
Gerek Industry And Mining Corp
#139 - 2016-07-02 23:21:10 UTC
NO; DO NOT CHANGE BUBBLES!!!
Emrys Alf
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#140 - 2016-07-03 00:40:29 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

The current range that warp bubbles are effective (how far from your destination they can pull you out of warp) is a little unclear. This has lead to some 'interesting' possibilities, such as bubble camping a gate with a citadel.

With the 118.7 patch, we are considering changing the maximum distance for a warp bubble (mobile, probe or hictor bubble) to effect a warp to be 500km.

This means only warp disruption bubbles that are 500km in-front or behind your warp destination, which are inline with your warp, will pull you out of warp early or drag you.

What do you think? We'd love your feedback!


Why?

Where's the problem?

Where are the protests?

Who is abusing the 1000 limit and how?

What difference does changing it to 500 make?

Is this a needed thing or is this once again a favour for some invested party?