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Eve without ISK from NPC
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Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#41 - 2016-07-01 00:40:47 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:
"Who runs BarterTown?"


Who ever controls the crossbows.

goons lol

Really? Goons?

They can't even handle 1 little corner of Sov space, but you think they can keep a stranglehold on the economy?

Keep dreaming.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Sustrai Aditua
Intandofisa
#42 - 2016-07-01 00:50:36 UTC
Here we are, struggling with an issue oblivious of fact. Reminds me of a recent vote....

If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#43 - 2016-07-01 17:52:38 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
You would also have to remove all isk sinks. No more clone jump fees, market tax, insurance cost of pay out. However, even then isk would trickle out of the game as players stopped playing with wallets full. No prices would drop, they would all skyrocket as large groups/indivduals with already big wallets would horde supplies. I have no clue why you think plex prices would drop. People would buy as many as they could while they had isk causing prices to grow.

On the other hand, if you mean remove all isk and go to a better system, that would suck. Many societies started that way, but money made life easier. Most likely you would see someone like chribba create their own.currency based on an external market site. Those few sites would hold a monopoly and life would suck as they could control prices.



We could still have insurance.
It would just need to pay a isk sum equal to what we paid in plus a % of whatever has not been claimed but expired.

New players wouldn't play eve at all if it was that hard to make isk.

Eve works largely on a Keynesian style... The guys on the bottom get fed from the local authority, they feed the people above them, the people above them feed the local authority, rinse and repeat.

This is why absurdly low taxes on non-wealthy can drive the economy in such a huge way. If CCP stops giving isk then it would change to a Trickle-Down system.. Those don't work... A few hundred players would be all that is left in a year or two :P
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#44 - 2016-07-01 18:03:15 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Here's a crazy idea:

Eliminate bounties. This includes bounties received in missions, belt ratting, even Incursions.

Instead, give each account a basic income. Take the number of active accounts, divide the amount of ISK from the bounty faucet, and set that as the monthly income each account gets. (To prevent throwaway account abuse, only active accounts get any ISK, and it's 0 ISK for the first month of a new account, 20% for the second, etc. until 100% at the 6th month.)

Prices of items will stabilize at a point dependent upon the level of this monthly basic income. It probably means a price increase for most things, as I suspect the majority of players make less than that average, while a few, to 10%, 1%, whatever, make much more. At the same time as more accounts have more ISK than normal to throw around, some of those folks will cease doing their normal ISK-making activities, including putting the fruits of their efforts on the market, making the supply drop.

So how does one then make an above average income in EVE? You take/get ISK from other players. This is done by manufacturing things, providing services, scamming, cheating, stealing, acquiring and selling valuable loot, PI, moongoo, ore and minerals... It's done by interacting with other players at some level, not sticking a carrier semi-AFK in a sanctum. (I've done Incursions a bit, and that's actually fairly heavy on interacting with other players, to be honest.)

Anyway, this is such a drastic change to EVE, a potentially ruinous one, and will never ever be implemented due to the risk. But it'd certainly be fun to watch. Twisted



I think you would see the number of rats killed go down quite a lot. While this system COULD work good it has a lot of drawbacks that CCP would need to balance out for.
For EvE to put this into place they would also need to put Taxes in play, and base those Taxes off of your wealth.

I support "Basic Income". I wish the Swiss would have voted it in, then we would have seen if it could work on a large scale. I think that a small test of this is going on in California at the moment. The huge problems that crops up with this is that you need to fund it from up above - and up above does not want to fund it. It would be a bit like giving free water or electricity to homes, and then charging those above a specific usage enough to cover the cost of everyone. Not groundbreaking stuff, but no one wants to do it because humanity is so stuck on the "ME ME ME" factor.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#45 - 2016-07-01 18:10:26 UTC
DeODokktor wrote:
I support "Basic Income". I wish the Swiss would have voted it in, then we would have seen if it could work on a large scale. I think that a small test of this is going on in California at the moment. The huge problems that crops up with this is that you need to fund it from up above - and up above does not want to fund it. It would be a bit like giving free water or electricity to homes, and then charging those above a specific usage enough to cover the cost of everyone. Not groundbreaking stuff, but no one wants to do it because humanity is so stuck on the "ME ME ME" factor.

Based on your loss history you have a fairly large disposable income. When are you going to start sharing your wealth with those who need it more than you do?

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#46 - 2016-07-01 18:14:35 UTC
DeODokktor wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
You would also have to remove all isk sinks. No more clone jump fees, market tax, insurance cost of pay out. However, even then isk would trickle out of the game as players stopped playing with wallets full. No prices would drop, they would all skyrocket as large groups/indivduals with already big wallets would horde supplies. I have no clue why you think plex prices would drop. People would buy as many as they could while they had isk causing prices to grow.

On the other hand, if you mean remove all isk and go to a better system, that would suck. Many societies started that way, but money made life easier. Most likely you would see someone like chribba create their own.currency based on an external market site. Those few sites would hold a monopoly and life would suck as they could control prices.



We could still have insurance.
It would just need to pay a isk sum equal to what we paid in plus a % of whatever has not been claimed but expired.

New players wouldn't play eve at all if it was that hard to make isk.

Eve works largely on a Keynesian style... The guys on the bottom get fed from the local authority, they feed the people above them, the people above them feed the local authority, rinse and repeat.

This is why absurdly low taxes on non-wealthy can drive the economy in such a huge way. If CCP stops giving isk then it would change to a Trickle-Down system.. Those don't work... A few hundred players would be all that is left in a year or two :P

insurance would be isk from NPCs (again)...

You guys do realize that the *only* actual "source" of isk is NPCs right? Players transfer isk between each other, but no player in the game can *generate* isk directly...that would be called "cheating"....

It *all* comes from NPCs...

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2016-07-05 11:14:59 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:
"Who runs BarterTown?"


Who ever controls the crossbows.

goons lol

Really? Goons?

They can't even handle 1 little corner of Sov space, but you think they can keep a stranglehold on the economy?

Keep dreaming.

That was supposed to be a joke lol.
eddie valvetino
Victory or Whatever
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#48 - 2016-07-05 14:58:12 UTC


Seen this question a few times in my time in New Eden.

But.. lets look at the oridginal source of ISK in eve, with the exception of ship insurance pay outs (and even those require the spending of ISK) All isk in eve, from launch to today has come from NPC bounties. Now you might say, "well i sell stuff in Jita, that is where my ISK comes from..." and that is true, but it's not the oridginal source of that incoming. at some point in the past, maybe even 13 years ago, the isk spent on your sell order came from an NPC. even if his be through ever active wallet in the game.. it still came, at first from an NPC.

Take a moment to think about this if you will.
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#49 - 2016-07-05 18:14:32 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:

You guys do realize that the *only* actual "source" of isk is NPCs right? Players transfer isk between each other, but no player in the game can *generate* isk directly...that would be called "cheating"....

It *all* comes from NPCs...


Insurance could be balanced fully.

Instead of having insurance last so long you could make it last for a day, week, or month with MUCH higher deposits. People will try to keep their capitals from getting killed, frigates will die a lot. The idea could be that you take the total paid into the pot and split it out to ships when they die ... The first month might need to be npc paid but from then on the balancing mechanisms could take over. Think of it more about how insurance works in real life - except the NPC holding the isk in escrow couldn't trade on it to make 1000% return, and the losses would be a lot higher on average.

Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Based on your loss history you have a fairly large disposable income. When are you going to start sharing your wealth with those who need it more than you do?


In the game I do give back to some players. The key difference is that giving players ISK doesn't help them feed their kids or get a job. There is no real social responsibility required in eve to help the ones below you.

In fact, my current "value" is probably somewhere around 2tn ISK... while that sounds impressive on its own, I have collected little to no assets in the past few years, nor have I done anything to grow my value.. Inflation in the game is rampant. If there was a huge rich list in this game then I wouldn't be on it, I am merely at the top of the bottom of the bucket.


I do understand that ISK has a requirement to be introduced - it would be impossible to play without some form of currency when trading is allowed. CCP spends a lot of time with "drain and faucets" to try and balance isk coming into the system.. Now one thing that you could think about is the fact that so many things in the game are moving away from "fixed" cost. It may be that CCP is planning on making everything dynamic in terms of ISK. If they go that path then there would be no more balance of isk in and isk out, instead the system could just respond directly to inflation. I hope they don't go this path (too many ignorant users in this game), but that is at least possible.

Going iskless just wouldn't work... I would welcome them dropping all new isk introduced to the game and isk getting removed from the game but I cant see them risking that. Do bear in mind that when some users go idle for months or years, the system could really change a lot... With something basic like missions and rat killing in play, then ISK does at least have a foundation base.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#50 - 2016-07-05 18:36:14 UTC
eddie valvetino wrote:


Seen this question a few times in my time in New Eden.

But.. lets look at the oridginal source of ISK in eve, with the exception of ship insurance pay outs (and even those require the spending of ISK) All isk in eve, from launch to today has come from NPC bounties. Now you might say, "well i sell stuff in Jita, that is where my ISK comes from..." and that is true, but it's not the oridginal source of that incoming. at some point in the past, maybe even 13 years ago, the isk spent on your sell order came from an NPC. even if his be through ever active wallet in the game.. it still came, at first from an NPC.

Take a moment to think about this if you will.


Almost. Each character starts with a 5k ISK inheritence.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2016-07-05 20:47:56 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
eddie valvetino wrote:


Seen this question a few times in my time in New Eden.

But.. lets look at the oridginal source of ISK in eve, with the exception of ship insurance pay outs (and even those require the spending of ISK) All isk in eve, from launch to today has come from NPC bounties. Now you might say, "well i sell stuff in Jita, that is where my ISK comes from..." and that is true, but it's not the oridginal source of that incoming. at some point in the past, maybe even 13 years ago, the isk spent on your sell order came from an NPC. even if his be through ever active wallet in the game.. it still came, at first from an NPC.

Take a moment to think about this if you will.


Almost. Each character starts with a 5k ISK inheritence.

--Gadget

Because that is so proportional...
Hengle Teron
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#52 - 2016-07-05 21:02:24 UTC
But how would you make money from other players, if there would be no player with money?

OP, you should really stop consuming whatever you are consuming.
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2016-07-05 22:29:20 UTC
ITT: People inching at a glacial rate to the realisation that money is a form of rationing.
Twenty centuries away from home and the ability to traverse the stars, but primitive forms of distribution and the ethics of bacteria.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#54 - 2016-07-05 23:27:20 UTC
Why is this moronic thread still even open?

OP's premise and logic are fatally flawed.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2016-07-06 00:08:32 UTC
Jozhin Z Bazhin wrote:
I wonder how Eve would look like if the only way to make money is player interaction.

No bounty from NPC kill (loot is ok - we need meta modules)

Trade, mining, salvage player/NPC wrecks would be the only way to get ISK.

Incursions, ratting etc will be no big source of income (CONCORD LP store disabled, just as all CONCORD agents).

ISK will be of high demand, PLEX go down, ships prices go up (may be)?

What else? Will ppl tend to be more cautios to get engaged into PvP? or since looting enemy modules will be biggest source of quick money for non-traders charactrers fights will become much more common? Less PVE grinding more PvP shooting?


Assuming you got rid of all the ISK sinks too, we'd see sustained deflation.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2016-07-06 00:14:10 UTC
Roci Nantes wrote:
Well, for starters, did you know that governments inject and decrease money in their economies in real life? If there isn't a centralized way of doing this, it would become more of a barter system.


No. There is the possibility of a free banking system as in Scotland from 1716 to 1845 where banks issued their own notes.

Quote:
What is money without something to "define" it. Maybe I want your eyeballs as currency.. maybe my neighbor thinks his bad hat collection should be currency....


Currency is usually viewed as something with little or no intrinsic value. For example, even gold is not very valuable as a metal. It is very soft and thus not suitable for much aside from jewelry and a few other things.

Quote:
Without NPC isk, you end up with large bands of players forcing everyone to bend to how they want to play and new players having no way to get into the system. How do you get someone to pay for game where as soon as you log in someone comes and takes all your stuff and leaves you stranded somewhere with no ship, no money and no way to earn any of it.


First off, that is the state of the game now. Players doing things to others, often against their will. And why would someone be able to come take my stuff as soon as I log in? Just not getting it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2016-07-06 00:17:29 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Zydrine will become new currency. Lol


LolLolLol

There's a thread somewhere about someone wanting to put EvE on the "Tritanium Standard".

I'd search for it, but my search-fu is limited to Siri. Blink

--Gadget


No. Currencies are typically something with little or no intrinsic value. Since just about everything in game players make requires tritanium that won't work either.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2016-07-06 00:21:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
All the Isk would disappear. The game would die.




Given the amount of ISk that is actually in game, I am not sure that's true at all, especially since the ISK sink flows are easily adjusted. If NPC ISK sinks other than skillbooks were removed, I am pretty sure the EVE economy could survive for the forseeable future (>decade)
But it would be a totally different economy, and an utterly unrecognizable new player experience.

Although there might be some positives to the NPE - not being able to get any money other than by interecting with other players, if only through the market, might well have some plus sides.


Depends on how large the deflation is. Mild deflation is one thing. Large deflation is something else altogether.

With 10% deflation you are earning a 10% rate of return just not spending your ISK. Each period that 10% is defined over (say a month) then if you spend no ISK this month you effectively have 10% more (or more accurately 10% more purchasing power).

This is what happened during the Great Depression in the U.S. The Fed let the money supply contract sharply and as a result consumption spending totally collapsed as a result, turning a recession in to the worst economic downturn in history.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#59 - 2016-07-06 00:25:21 UTC
Sustrai Aditua wrote:
Yay! Allow me to say this about that. Unless you're talking a barter system (Yay Barter Town reference!):

You are talking a central government - immediately. Then you're talking a currency of some sort. Interstellar Kredits you say? Fine, I say. Who is the issuing authority? On what do they base the value of their units of currency? On what do they base their imperatives to issue currency (put it into circulation) or destroy currency (take it OUT of circulation)?

You see, these geniuses we have these days claiming to be smart enough to declare weeee don' neeed no steeenkeeng gumment fail to take this into account. If you don't do it this way, then anyone with a printer can manufacture whatever currency and call it whatever value suits them - all. So we'd ALL be kajillioinaires IF we could convince everyone else to believe what we say about OUR money. In a world of "trust no one" fat chance of THAT ever happening....though....we could hyp-mo-tize people.

Yeah....THAT'S the ticket...and my wife...Morgan Fairchild..... Ooops, anyway. Given the above circumstance the historic inclination is to revert to a barter system - SQUARE ONE.

So then what do we have? The authority prints money. Suddenly - COUNTERFEITERS! The authority has to store the money, and issue at regional locations - banks. Suddenly - BANK ROBBERS! So...before any of this happens POLICE FORCE, ENFORCEABLE LAWS (and the ever favorite) PRISONS!! YAY!!! (Getting the idea yet?)

Oh, but not just there. Now "lanes of commerce" count. Enforcement of sovereignty counts.
Exterminating criminals counts.

First to go to secure this "economy" GANKERS! YAY! Or, traditionally, Pirates. Shot on sight. Summarily executed.
And the Sovereign's NAVY leads the way! After all, it is a matter of "National Security".

Nah...I'm bettin' you don't want THAT much reality. You were thinkin' of something ELSE, RIGHT???


A number of countries did have a free banking system. Scotland, Sweden, even the U.S. for a brief period of time.

However, since there is no legal structure in game and there is no way to enforce contracts and the like, free banking would never arise.

But strictly speaking, there does not have to be government control of the currency.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2016-07-06 00:30:22 UTC
Tao Dolcino wrote:
Let's not forget that we are in a game and that the goal is not to simulate a real economical model, but to have fun.
As humans are all different, despite the endless attempts to "normalize" them through a world dictature, they have different ways to have fun. What i like in EVE is that everyone can find his own way and can be creative about it. You can be peaceful, warmonger, honest, scammer, lonesome, part of a huge alliance... and find a way to make enough money to fund your fun and your projects. There is no wrong way.


The in game economy is just as real as any other economy. What is an economy if not people interacting and entering into exchanges they perceive as being in their best interests. How is that different from what we do in the in game economy? When I buy a ship in Jita for ISK I'm saying I'd rather have the ship than the ISK. The person selling it is saying, "I want the ISK more than the ship." We are both better off. Similarly when I go to the grocery and buy a loaf of bread for cash I'm saying, "I want the loaf of bread more than the cash." And the store is saying, "I want the cash more than the loaf of bread." Same thing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online