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Dev Blog: Bidding Farewell to the In-game Browser

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Draconas109
Dova Industry
#181 - 2016-06-21 00:44:06 UTC
So instead of taking care of legacy crap that thousands still use for one reason or another by spending time trying to update the IGB in house or try to have an outside contractor do it for you, or hell even have people who'd be willing to do it for you FOR FREE, you kill the IGB outright and tell every third party app developer who's designed their apps to work WITH the IGB "lel change ur ****"

seriously, the time money and effort CCP put towards skins, skill injectors, console and VR pet projects, fudging the launcher (AGAIN), the useless map changes, the useless and motion sickness inducing camera changes (because we totally asked for docking/undocking animations that WE CANT TURN OFF) and the plethora of stupid crap to turn EVE into a WOW-in-space clone, could've easily been spent on updating the IGB in some way shape or form.

I'm kinda pissed since 90% of the tools I use wants the IGB for some reason or another.

If im kinda pissed, I can't tell you how third party app makers feel about this but I can only imagine it's worse.
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#182 - 2016-06-21 00:47:25 UTC
Lt Shard wrote:
Just because you dont use it daily doesn't mean others dont


yes and you should have worked for months if not years to make yourself less reliant on the IGB. so start now to port your things to crest. ask the devs of your tools to start using crest. and then give constructive feedback to the devs.

things like "we tried to port XYZ from the IGB to crest using resources X and Y. but we run into a problem. was our way the right one?"

but it doesnt matter how much time you give people there will still be people complaining at the next announcement or when the deadline finally hits.
Bawb Zennshinagas
Zennshinagas LLC.
#183 - 2016-06-21 00:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Bawb Zennshinagas
Airi Cho wrote:
Lt Shard wrote:
Just because you dont use it daily doesn't mean others dont


yes and you should have worked for months if not years to make yourself less reliant on the IGB. so start now to port your things to crest. ask the devs of your tools to start using crest. and then give constructive feedback to the devs.

things like "we tried to port XYZ from the IGB to crest using resources X and Y. but we run into a problem. was our way the right one?"

but it doesnt matter how much time you give people there will still be people complaining at the next announcement or when the deadline finally hits.


Developer platforms is not what that statement is referring to, it's referring to the player use, and the lack of overlay existence for Mac users.

This is as close to constructive as Mac users can get, THERE IS NO OPTION FOR US.
MAS0RAKSH
Doomheim
#184 - 2016-06-21 01:01:56 UTC
the only 2 uses -spamming obscene gifs during fleet and D-Scan results. Please create D-Scan sharing and a pop-up for the shared results in a new tab.

rip a whole bunch of stuff now

F
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#185 - 2016-06-21 01:05:09 UTC
Bawb Zennshinagas wrote:
This is as close to constructive as Mac users can get, THERE IS NO OPTION FOR US.



basically you are using a version of wine. you can try to run overwolf under wine too and see if it can attach to the other window running under wine. if you really need that overlay stuff.

but i was more talking about all the apps still relying on the old IGB headers.
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#186 - 2016-06-21 01:06:32 UTC
MAS0RAKSH wrote:
D-Scan results.


there are a few sites to share d-scan results. and you can just insert your clipboard into the input box. and they come with nice things like counting ship types and stuff.
Bawb Zennshinagas
Zennshinagas LLC.
#187 - 2016-06-21 01:12:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Bawb Zennshinagas
Airi Cho wrote:
Bawb Zennshinagas wrote:
This is as close to constructive as Mac users can get, THERE IS NO OPTION FOR US.



basically you are using a version of wine. you can try to run overwolf under wine too and see if it can attach to the other window running under wine. if you really need that overlay stuff.

but i was more talking about all the apps still relying on the old IGB headers.



Yes, the quote you quoted was in reference to mac users using the IGB as a player. AFAIK there's no way to easily attach a separate wine application to another wine instance, the only option would be running it inside of the Eve WINE container, of which may require modification for compatibility.... and I don't know if the CCP security guys would approve. I certainly haven't been able to find any details on doing such a thing.

This is assuming Overwolf even plays nice. The only WineHQ results are ancient and of catastrophic failure.
Caldranna
Let's annoy'em
#188 - 2016-06-21 01:17:39 UTC
Airi Cho wrote:
MAS0RAKSH wrote:
D-Scan results.


there are a few sites to share d-scan results. and you can just insert your clipboard into the input box. and they come with nice things like counting ship types and stuff.


Oh, yes. And it is done best if you do not have to Alt + Tab or buy another screen or use your smartphone for it. As such this is a well established in-game functionality that is virtually going to be removed. Creating such a list after the IGB removal will involve an out of game browser. Opening it will involve out of game browser. If you are lucky to have enough resolution to fit it on the screen or another means of accessing it without having to minimize your client, then it's all good. Though if you don't, then you're going to be at an disadvantage.

In my opinion CCP? Sure remove the IGB after you have ensured that all the functions it offered remain in game and are at least as easily accessible as they were with the IGB. And I mean in game. Not out of it.
Kalpel
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#189 - 2016-06-21 01:28:53 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Lt Shard wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:

That isn't really a simple task unfortunately.


Doesn't mean you cant try.


True, but it is a matter of prioritization. So many things we want to do and a limited number of devs.


I'm sure there are lots of developers looking for work, so hire some more? or is CCP going broke?

You failed to target nothing! ≡v≡ online ... (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Oddsodz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2016-06-21 01:59:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Oddsodz
Alas, I know this will not change CCP's mind. But I pay my subs, So I can rant if I want.

I as a player do not feel it is right that one of the key tools of the game client currently that is the IGB is getting dropped with no replacement for it. CREST is not a replacement (but CREST is wonderful - don't get me wrong about how good I feel about CREST).

When I play EVE, I play it at FULL SCREEN on a 24" 1080p monitor. When I play any game. It is always FULL SCREEN. When I am playing a game. I don't wish to see anything eles on my monitor. The thing that I play games for a teamwork and immersion elements. I can not stress this enough.

Immersion is big letters.

Every time I have to alt tab from the client, I feel removed from the game. That to me is wrong. I have logged in to play the game. I don't wish to log in to the game to then turn the game off just to look at a picture or read a new bit of info about a new DEV blog. I wish to have that in the game client. Removing me from the game client for such things is very poor as far as I am concerned.

Now some folks here will say "get a 2nd monitor". And I say, Sure. You pay for it and the desk to fit it on with my current monitor.

As for CCP's recommendation of using "Overlays". I again feel this is bad. You are in effect telling us that to use the game client as we do now. We have to install a new app from somebody who CCP has no working relationship with. And who CCP will not support in anyway. Just to keep the current toolset that the IGB provides.

I myself will not be adding a overlay. As the horror stories I have seen in the past and from my own experiences for getting kicked/temp banned from games due to anti cheat software from said games always thinking Overlays are bad and cheating".

The only way I feel that CCP can get this right is to make an "OverLay" of it's own just for the eve client.

I agree that the current IGB is a DEV time/work sink. And I agree that CCP needs to dump it. CCP is not a internet browser company. But I also feel that from and end user standpoint. How much work can it be to just give us a overlay that will let us have any browser that we like IE: MS Edge - Chrome - FireFox - Safari. I am not asking CCP to make a web browser. I get why it is hard work pulling that one off. All I am asking is that you give us the component that will let us have a web browser with in the game client and not have to alt -tab for every little gif.

Thank you for reading my rant.

Oddsodz
Kaltag the Chinook
Kaltag and Co.
#191 - 2016-06-21 02:30:52 UTC
Not sure if this has been asked, did a quick glaze over but is there a way to move bookmarks as I have collected a lot over the years.
Garak n00biachi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2016-06-21 04:02:40 UTC
You cant be serious; holy hell you guys are terrible at managing this game.
Im beginning to suspect you are deliberately chasing away the tiny playerbase you have left so you can pull the plug, there cannot be any other reason for something as ******** as this.
Garak n00biachi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2016-06-21 04:15:24 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Sheeana Harb wrote:
I will be very frank here:

The (upcoming) removal of the IGB will make my ingame experience considerably less enjoyable. I use it quite often while in nullsec. Neither of the alternatives suggested in the devblog are good enough.

I'm very unhappy that the IGB is going away.


This food sucks.

VS

Any chance I could get this food without the nuts? I am actually allergic to them. :)

Once of those statements is useful the other is not. Care to take a guess which is yours?



What a horrible arrogant smart ass way to reply to the people that pay your salary. Absolutely dreadful, your boss should forbid you to even respond via any social media if youre this classless.
nezroy
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2016-06-21 04:28:52 UTC
Quick note for all those talking about overlays. You don't need anything nearly that complex or annoying.

If you are running EVE in Fixed Window mode, which is equivalent to every other game's Fullscreen Windowed mode (and doesn't everyone do this already anyway for a million other reasons?), then you can use any kind of always-on-top flagger to just set a chrome/safari/whatever window to be always on top of the EVE client. For example, see the one-line autohotkey script mentioned here.

Then just put your always-on-top browser window wherever you normally would put the IGB and you are done. Depending on your win/chrome themes you can even get transparency too (I believe Safari can do transparency just via its options even).

If you need to minimize it regularly that can be a bit more of an issue. My preference is to just run my fixed windowed mode EVE client a bit smaller than my actual desktop size; as long as your taskbar is on the right or the bottom this works since EVE's fixed window anchors to the upper-left. So I can always see my windows taskbar to grab any minimized stuff quickly, which is super useful for a lot of other reasons anyway.
Blacksmoke16
Resilience.
#195 - 2016-06-21 04:45:05 UTC
@CCP FoxFour

Thanks for the help so far first off. However i did check the response and fixed that error. However i am now getting:

Quote:
{message: "Authentication scope needed", key: "authNeeded", exceptionType: "UnauthorizedError"}
exceptionType
:
"UnauthorizedError"
key
:
"authNeeded"
message
:
"Authentication scope needed"


Even though i am using an app with publicData and remoteClientUI scopes. Am i missing a scope or is something else amok?
McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc
#196 - 2016-06-21 05:37:06 UTC
IGB is invaluable. This is a bad change.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#197 - 2016-06-21 05:41:38 UTC
Brain Gehirn wrote:
You can resize windows and put then in front of your game.
I have been doing this for like.. a couple of years? and never ever had any issues. Unless you are REALLY lazy you can survive without the IGB. SURE, it can help a lot.. but nothing that you can't do.
Also, unless you have a REALLY bad computer, windowed mode is the same as the fullscreen mode (I run windowed since 2006 tbh).

"you do not need to develop your app for the IGB"
Well.. you are kinda wrong. Every EVE website needs to support the old IGB in some way, even if you don't rely on any feature that it has. Why? Css/JS issues all around if you don't use old things too.
jQuery for example you need the 1.11 version to be ok.... but the actual jQuery version is 3.0. So every website that wants to be able to get some views and work ingame needs to support old things, avoid new libs and so on...

Now go back to ratting. <3

So, now I need to constantly juggle around my out of game windows in order to accommodate for this shortcoming? It's not like that it's completely idiotic having to move around out of game windows and programs for something that has to be ingame in order to continue to be able to see chats, overview, scans, hangars and other things, and then move the out of game windows back in the previous layout positions when you are done with EVE ... and move them back into position when you again need something in EVE. That's utter garbage.
My computer can handle 2 clients in window mode just barely in calm situations with just barely acceptable 24 FPS and a really high CPU load and that computer is not from 10 years ago, but it's also not a high end gaming machine because some people work and live on a budget. Fullscreen mode is by a considerably margin less performance hungry than window mode.

That you develop for the IGB is the problem. As I said, you can develop applications (application != website tool) that does not require the IGB or website tools that run without the IGB and use CREST. That's what you now have to do anyways, so I do not understand your given reasons why the IGB is bad at all.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Julian Aldurald
Posh Wankers
#198 - 2016-06-21 06:12:34 UTC
I feel like this is gona be a good change in the long run at least.
Ty for the fade out phase until oct tho.
I feel like this'll give every developer enough time to update the important apps so they can fully work with crest if they didnt do that yet.
Julian Aldurald
Posh Wankers
#199 - 2016-06-21 06:17:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Julian Aldurald
Oddsodz wrote:
Alas, I know this will not change CCP's mind. But I pay my subs, So I can rant if I want.

I as a player do not feel it is right that one of the key tools of the game client currently that is the IGB is getting dropped with no replacement for it. CREST is not a replacement (but CREST is wonderful - don't get me wrong about how good I feel about CREST).

When I play EVE, I play it at FULL SCREEN on a 24" 1080p monitor. When I play any game. It is always FULL SCREEN. When I am playing a game. I don't wish to see anything eles on my monitor. The thing that I play games for a teamwork and immersion elements. I can not stress this enough.

Immersion is big letters.

Every time I have to alt tab from the client, I feel removed from the game. That to me is wrong. I have logged in to play the game. I don't wish to log in to the game to then turn the game off just to look at a picture or read a new bit of info about a new DEV blog. I wish to have that in the game client. Removing me from the game client for such things is very poor as far as I am concerned.

Now some folks here will say "get a 2nd monitor". And I say, Sure. You pay for it and the desk to fit it on with my current monitor.

As for CCP's recommendation of using "Overlays". I again feel this is bad. You are in effect telling us that to use the game client as we do now. We have to install a new app from somebody who CCP has no working relationship with. And who CCP will not support in anyway. Just to keep the current toolset that the IGB provides.

I myself will not be adding a overlay. As the horror stories I have seen in the past and from my own experiences for getting kicked/temp banned from games due to anti cheat software from said games always thinking Overlays are bad and cheating".

The only way I feel that CCP can get this right is to make an "OverLay" of it's own just for the eve client.

I agree that the current IGB is a DEV time/work sink. And I agree that CCP needs to dump it. CCP is not a internet browser company. But I also feel that from and end user standpoint. How much work can it be to just give us a overlay that will let us have any browser that we like IE: MS Edge - Chrome - FireFox - Safari. I am not asking CCP to make a web browser. I get why it is hard work pulling that one off. All I am asking is that you give us the component that will let us have a web browser with in the game client and not have to alt -tab for every little gif.

Thank you for reading my rant.

Oddsodz


Get all the overlays odds including a proper overlay browser you'll love it.
Ill try to test out a couple configurations for people like you as well and ill try to show you something thats decently handy to use.

Update 1:
I've just tried a couple overlays. I've liked Overwolf the most but it doesn't work with multiple clients it only works on the last client you've opened.
But seriously if you are multi boxing you gotta alt tab anyways so don't tell me you are less emerged while doing that if you alt tab once more to get to your browser.


If you still want someting else here are some useful resources I've aquired during my time doing research:
Creepy Tools that includes a transparent browser window that you use as basic overlay for eve too: (very old/ insecure)
https://gw2pao.codeplex.com/

Other overlays tools (I've tried EvolvE and Overwolf)
http://softwarerecs.stackexchange.com/questions/26116/best-in-game-overlay-for-skype-steam-and-web-browsing

Get the steam browser of course everyone knows that, if you like that.

You'd propbly also need kind of a window manager/ organizer some kind of addon to stick your overlay (if its not steam or overwolf) to your eve client (at least if you are multitasking/ multiboxing alot)
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#200 - 2016-06-21 06:41:04 UTC
Thank you for making my life as a player less enjoyable CCP. I now have the choice of alt-tabbing out of the game (which is immersion breaking, inconvenient and downright dangerous from an in-game perspective in many situations) or adding some third party overlay hack that's specifically unsupported, disavowed and comes with many performance issues.

I think you've drastically underestimated just how many of us use the IGB everyday.

I know this is a done deal and no amount of player complaining or use case examples will make a bit of difference but I want to register my unhappiness with this decision anyway.

Back when this idea was first floated it was stated that the IGB wouldn't get axed until CREST was up to par as a replacement and that the most important cases for using the IGB were replicated. Why has that changed?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.