These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Technology Lab

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Note on some broken CREST things

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
FearlessLittleToaster
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2016-06-19 18:14:32 UTC
Quote:
What a well written response. Good Job there. Question: You're sitting in your office shuffling your big pile of papers and in walks a technician. He tells you that 1/100 times the ejector seat wont function - and cos its friday the manufacturers won't give you a fix till Monday in case it breaks something else. Which medicine ball would you give him then. You see, my friend, both you and the P seem to be missing a number of points here

People get different things from the game - to some just blowing stuff up is important, for others its mining and for some it's killboards. Apparently if it's killmails, you should reconsider your priorities, and so for some it's mission critical.

But the main point I was trying to make - and is either being deliberately (bad) or accidentally (very bad) being misinterpreted - is this. Just because software has always been released before its ready does not mean that we should accept it. The references to slavery etc were to illustrate that bad things should not be accepted, not to compare anyone to slavers. If the end-user (us) always accept poor systems of working then they are not going to be fixed. And how do we do that, you may ask. Well the method i choose to do that is to let the devs know that I find it unacceptable, rather than play the game for a few months then decide that it's broken and go to play another game that will have the same problems.

The software industry should have a look at 6-sigma practices. It may be found insightful


First off, you got me on Hitler's height. Good catch there, I always thought he was a bit shorter than average.

As for the rest, I stand by my position. Your ejection seat example would be correct if you could sell the idea that killmails are a critical function like ejection seats are in aircraft. The problem is, you don't. Instead you expect that claim to be accepted on its face, without any sort of examination to determine if it is valid. This is why management exists, to prioritize claims such as yours and determine if they are correct; otherwise resources get wasted on somebody’s pet peeve or the panic button gets pressed for things that are really not that big of a deal.

Now, if you find the posting of killmails to killboards in real time to be the most important part of Eve then this bug does suck, but I doubt you are part of a very large group. If you could present some evidence to refute that besides the fact that you are mad, and you had done so in a polite and well reasoned way, you could have even had an impact on what CCP views as important. Remember, in this thread you are talking directly to the person who judges this kind of thing for CREST issues. However, this person seems to understand that due to the reality of limited resources the devs have to prioritize, and if everything is a priority then nothing is. Your response to learning this was… a retreat into a fallacious argument.

You are using a method of argument called the Nirvana Fallacy, the Wikipedia page of which can be found here. Basically you are demanding perfection in a real world situation where many shades of bad exist, thereby guaranteeing that nobody can ever meet your standard. It makes you look silly and causes anyone who has had to function in reality to roll their eyes and ignore your foolishness.

Then we get to the bit about slavery. You claim that you were just bringing it up as an example, but do you really expect a reader to believe you did so without any understanding of how loaded with meaning the subject is? I mean you brought in a crime against humanity here. Other than accusing FoxFour of being a child molester it would have been hard for you to bring up something worse. So you are either utterly oblivious or just trying to be nasty. People shouldn’t accept a bad product, but if you don’t make an attempt to be fair and polite in your objections you will simply be ignored. The boy who cried wolf comes to mind.

As you mention elsewhere in this thread you wrote code for 35 years. I don’t doubt that you were good at it, but I would be shocked if you were ever put in charge of people. Your writing here reads like a technician who never had to deal with any real responsibility. Perhaps most tellingly, you mention me sitting in my office shuffling papers. The reality of it was always a little different. I wasn’t there to do paperwork. I was there so when a subordinate with your approach to communication got agitated I could step in and send you back to your keyboard before you caused the organization too much damage.
FearlessLittleToaster
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2016-06-19 18:16:33 UTC
MachineOfLovingGrace wrote:
[quote=Ohno no Borrox]

Also, was that a Goodwin? I'm not familiar with that phrase, I'm not sure.



Here you go. Godwin's law as defined on Wikepedia.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#83 - 2016-06-20 11:09:39 UTC
[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/KqLPb0IrGHwiY/giphy.gif[/img]

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
MachineOfLovingGrace
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#84 - 2016-06-20 12:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: MachineOfLovingGrace
CCP FoxFour wrote:
[img]https://media.giphy.com/media/KqLPb0IrGHwiY/giphy.gif[/img]


Ah, but did the horse generate a valid killmail, that is the question?

... I'm sorry, I'll leavy you alone ...
Ohno no Borrox
xX-Crusader-Xx
Tactical Narcotics Team
#85 - 2016-06-20 19:08:36 UTC
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:


First off, you got me on Hitler's height. Good catch there, I always thought he was a bit shorter than average.

As for the rest, I stand by my position. Your ejection seat example would be correct if you could sell the idea that killmails are a critical function like ejection seats are in aircraft. The problem is, you don't. Instead you expect that claim to be accepted on its face, without any sort of examination to determine if it is valid. This is why management exists, to prioritize claims such as yours and determine if they are correct; otherwise resources get wasted on somebody’s pet peeve or the panic button gets pressed for things that are really not that big of a deal.

Now, if you find the posting of killmails to killboards in real time to be the most important part of Eve then this bug does suck, but I doubt you are part of a very large group. If you could present some evidence to refute that besides the fact that you are mad, and you had done so in a polite and well reasoned way, you could have even had an impact on what CCP views as important. Remember, in this thread you are talking directly to the person who judges this kind of thing for CREST issues. However, this person seems to understand that due to the reality of limited resources the devs have to prioritize, and if everything is a priority then nothing is. Your response to learning this was… a retreat into a fallacious argument.

You are using a method of argument called the Nirvana Fallacy, the Wikipedia page of which can be found here. Basically you are demanding perfection in a real world situation where many shades of bad exist, thereby guaranteeing that nobody can ever meet your standard. It makes you look silly and causes anyone who has had to function in reality to roll their eyes and ignore your foolishness.

Then we get to the bit about slavery. You claim that you were just bringing it up as an example, but do you really expect a reader to believe you did so without any understanding of how loaded with meaning the subject is? I mean you brought in a crime against humanity here. Other than accusing FoxFour of being a child molester it would have been hard for you to bring up something worse. So you are either utterly oblivious or just trying to be nasty. People shouldn’t accept a bad product, but if you don’t make an attempt to be fair and polite in your objections you will simply be ignored. The boy who cried wolf comes to mind.

As you mention elsewhere in this thread you wrote code for 35 years. I don’t doubt that you were good at it, but I would be shocked if you were ever put in charge of people. Your writing here reads like a technician who never had to deal with any real responsibility. Perhaps most tellingly, you mention me sitting in my office shuffling papers. The reality of it was always a little different. I wasn’t there to do paperwork. I was there so when a subordinate with your approach to communication got agitated I could step in and send you back to your keyboard before you caused the organization too much damage.


RE: para 1, 2 & 3 whether in a minority or a majority I have the right to demand correct functionality from a product and I do not apologise for striving, and wanting others to strive for, perfection

Re: para 4: it is apparent that any answer i would have provided could have been interpreted similarly. If I had used he emancipation of women then I would have been accused of calling FoxFour a misogynist. Whilst you did not initially take issue with my statement, both you and focfour have made assumptions about my intent/meaning. Further as far as I am aware, being a paedophile has never been acceptable, whereas slavery was once.

Another assumption you made is in the final paragraph. You will be shocked then, that I succesfully led teams for much of my career, including towards my retirement an extremely large team from one of the big four British Cell providers. You also make the following statement in same paragraph "I was there so when a subordinate with your approach to communication got agitated I could step in and send you back to your keyboard before you caused the organization too much damage" whilst not entirealy at odds with your initial statement " If I was in the military I would conduct the session while they held a 40lb medicine ball over their head." i feel you are being slightly duplicitous.

You may feel that you need to reply to this. If you do, good for you, if you don't good for you too. I won't be reading any of it. You are in little or no position to influence the result of the discussion, so you are no more worthy of my time, than your medicine ball is
Aineko Macx
#86 - 2016-06-23 07:20:21 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Aineko Macx wrote:
There's more broken stuff:
Trying to pull TournamentStaticSceneData or TournamentRealtimeMatchFrame throws 500 errors:
Unexpected exception thrown of type 'exceptions.KeyError', key:unexpectedException, exceptionType:InternalServerError, refID: ac73554d-221a-4e0c-ae2f-7a49a98a2dda

Will pass that on to CCP Bartender.

Still broken.

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#87 - 2016-06-23 08:35:10 UTC
Aineko Macx wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Aineko Macx wrote:
There's more broken stuff:
Trying to pull TournamentStaticSceneData or TournamentRealtimeMatchFrame throws 500 errors:
Unexpected exception thrown of type 'exceptions.KeyError', key:unexpectedException, exceptionType:InternalServerError, refID: ac73554d-221a-4e0c-ae2f-7a49a98a2dda

Will pass that on to CCP Bartender.

Still broken.


Known. Busy around here but it is known and on a list. :)

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Messenger Of Truth
Butlerian Crusade
#88 - 2016-06-23 12:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Messenger Of Truth
Regarding the fixes to the ShowContract / ShowMarketType (*sp) methods, did they get deployed? I was getting 500s from them last night, but there's at least a 75% chance that I've done something wrong in the method invocation.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
So basically what you just said is; I fixed the code AND tested it but it might still break something when implemented. So it wasn't really tested all that well to start with - was it?


I hope you're only pretending to have been starved of oxygen at birth.

To give you the benefit of the doubt, software testing is inherently probabilistic - its possible to prove with certainty that something doesn't work, but you can't prove with any certainty that it *does* work. There might be a bug that you haven't found in your testing, so you can only say, I've done this amount of testing and found no faults so it probably works.

Trade Hub Price Checker: stop.hammerti.me.uk/pricecheck

Visit "Haulers Channel" in game for all matters courier-related.

Structure name/system API: stop.hammerti.me.uk/api
Flying Squidwolf
Indigo Media
#89 - 2016-07-03 20:41:04 UTC
Well I've just come back to this thread and... omg what went on in here?!

Anyways, FoxFour doesn't get nearly enough praise so I've like to tip my hat and raise a glass for getting **** done.