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Being griefed by other industry players.

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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#101 - 2011-12-20 15:55:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Crumplecorn
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Third time's a charm: Opportunity cost is irrelevant because it can't be accurately applied to a recreational activity.
So you can't calculate the opportunity cost of playing EVE (only, you probably could).

This says nothing about opportunity cost within the game which is what people are talking about.

And anyway, the main 'issue' is the opportunity cost of materials, not the activity that obtained them. "Minerals I mine myself are free"?

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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#102 - 2011-12-20 15:56:05 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
You can pick 3 apples in 5 minutes to sell for a total of $3. Or you can spend an hour making and cooking an apple pie that you can sell for $2 dollars. Are you stupid or something?


Or do you just really enjoy baking?

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#103 - 2011-12-20 15:57:34 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
This is what you guys aren't grasping: This is his idea of fun.
We get that. It doesn't change the opportunity cost of his actions.

The "opportunity cost" is decided when he decided to play the game. Game = time + money = opportunity cost. Anything you do in game has the same opportunity cost.


And he's having fun...


Go figure.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#104 - 2011-12-20 15:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Crumplecorn
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
The "opportunity cost" is decided when he decided to play the game. Game = time + money = opportunity cost. Anything you do in game has the same opportunity cost.
As I pointed out to the other guy, we're discussing things inside the game now. We aren't trying to cost mining minerals against doing things other than playing EVE because we don't consider the minerals "real".

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#105 - 2011-12-20 15:59:37 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Yeah, I ran into the "I get the 'stuff' for free to build item X" paradigm a while back when I was examining T3 production as an alternative source of diversion and profit. If you try to explain why the "stuff" they get themselves isn't free they'll eventually transition to "But I like providing cheap products to people". Perhaps, but by indicating that the primary reason they sell products below market value of the components to build them is because of "free" resources that they get themselves, they've already indicated that their primary motive is to sell their end product at a "profit". So, I don't believe a word of any other reason they sell at such prices.

I mean, I never ask someone who is ignoring opportunity cost and am told "Oh, profit doesn't matter to me. I do it because I enjoy the process". No, the first reason they give me is always "I get the stuff for free".

It boils down to people assuming a product is profitable and not doing the necessary research to vet any such endeavor.

Here is a quick example for those of you who "get the stuff to build with for free".

You can pick 3 apples in 5 minutes to sell for a total of $3. Or you can spend an hour making and cooking an apple pie that you can sell for $2 dollars. Are you stupid or something?



Well, whether stupid or just don't care, either way we need them.

Without them we couldn't buy their pie for $2, cut the pie into 6 slices and sell those slices for $1 each (except for the one you eat yourself).

Miners without calculators = Pie for us

I like it.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#106 - 2011-12-20 16:04:37 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
The whole premise of opportunity cost is that doing X instead of Y "costs" you Z, where Z=Y-X (yes it's more complicated, but it makes the point). But if Y is something you never would have done in the first place because it's not fun for you, then there's nothing to calculate.

…except that if he wasn't interested in the sales part, he could just not put the stuff on the market or (as a “least bad" solution fulfil buy orders). Since he obviously wants to sell the stuff as well, Y definitely is something he is interested in, and thus the opportunity cost is present and calculable.

At that point, informing him of how he has failed to understand the scope and source of his failure is a rather nice thing to do (even if it robs everyone else of the free minerals he's providing).
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#107 - 2011-12-20 16:06:42 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
This says nothing about opportunity cost within the game which is what people are talking about.

You know what? I take it back. It's okay to criticize how someone plays the game. Because people with this mindset are playing it all wrong. When you're this concerned over how someone else perceives the game's virtual resources that you feel compelled to tell them how wrong they are, it's stopped being a game. Take a step back, breathe deep, and realize there is NOTHING wrong with how this guy sees the game.

The rocks are free: they cost him nothing, and he believes his in-game time is best spent obtaining them. If he believed there were a greater profit (more fun) to be had elsewhere, you can bet he'd be doing that instead. I guess I should be saying it this way: In Eve, opportunity cost is subjective.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Prince Kobol
#108 - 2011-12-20 16:08:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
One of the biggest mistakes people make when building anything is Eve is that they don't realise that every item has a mineral value attached.

For example, in nearly every system in Eve you will see frigs, cruisers and certain mods being sold for well under their mineral value.

People think just because they mined the ore themselves that it is free so it does not matter what they sell item x for.

Well for one I hope more and more people continue to do this as it is a great way of making isk for those of us who have the relevant skills.

I have made a lot of isk from buying items people are selling well below the mineral value, reprocessing and selling the minerals on at a profit.

Long may it continue Big smile
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#109 - 2011-12-20 16:08:59 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
The rocks are free: they cost him nothing
I think you need to look up what opportunity cost is. Nobody is saying there is an actual physical cost involved in extracting them (other than time, which is a given).

FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
In Eve, opportunity cost is subjective.
No, it is objective and quantifiable.

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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#110 - 2011-12-20 16:10:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
At that point, informing him of how he has failed to understand the scope and source of his failure is a rather nice thing to do (even if it robs everyone else of the free minerals he's providing).

I have in the past told people "Hey you know you could sell that for more and make more isk."

Some of them thanked me, asked for advice on the market, and went on to make more isk using their newfound knowledge. Others declined and said they were happy with what they were doing. The difference is I stopped there and left it up to them. I didn't push unsolicited advice; I simply stated the fact that they were well under market values.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#111 - 2011-12-20 16:22:44 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
The rocks are free: they cost him nothing
I think you need to look up what opportunity cost is. Nobody is saying there is an actual physical cost involved in extracting them (other than time, which is a given).

FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
In Eve, opportunity cost is subjective.
No, it is objective and quantifiable.

I'm well aware of what opportunity cost is. What you seem to be failing to grasp is the notion that in a game, there is no value to activities that you don't enjoy. I could make more isk running incursions, but I don't want to run incursions. So the cost of me not running incursions is zero, as I don't consider them a viable option for gameplay.

Here's a real life opportunity cost example: I know of two places I could drill for oil. Location A will yield more oil at lower costs than location B. With this information, the opportunity cost is simple numbers. However, it is illegal to drill at A, therefore it's a moot point and there is no calculation to be done.

Back to Eve: I could mine rocks and sell the minerals, or I could mine rocks, build something, and sell the items. Selling the minerals yields more isk per ore mined. Again, simple objective numbers. But if I don't get as much enjoyment out of selling the minerals because I *want* to build something, it's a moot point.

Opportunity cost in a game depends entirely on the entertainment value of the activity in question.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#112 - 2011-12-20 16:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Crumplecorn
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
I'm well aware of what opportunity cost is. What you seem to be failing to grasp is the notion that in a game, there is no value to activities that you don't enjoy. I could make more isk running incursions, but I don't want to run incursions. So the cost of me not running incursions is zero, as I don't consider them a viable option for gameplay.
You do not understand what opportunity cost is.

FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Here's a real life opportunity cost example: I know of two places I could drill for oil. Location A will yield more oil at lower costs than location B. With this information, the opportunity cost is simple numbers. However, it is illegal to drill at A, therefore it's a moot point and there is no calculation to be done.

Back to Eve: I could mine rocks and sell the minerals, or I could mine rocks, build something, and sell the items. Selling the minerals yields more isk per ore mined. Again, simple objective numbers. But if I don't get as much enjoyment out of selling the minerals because I *want* to build something, it's a moot point.
False analogy; something which cannot be done, vs something you do not wish to do. Opportunity cost indeed does not apply to the first one (or rather, would have to factor in the 'cost' of the repucussions), whereas it does apply to the second.

FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Opportunity cost in a game depends entirely on the entertainment value of the activity in question.
Incorrect.

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Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#113 - 2011-12-20 16:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmy Zeta
Here's how it is done:

1. find ridiculously underprized ships on the market and buy them
2. reprocess
3. use those minerals to build a huge chunk of ammo or modules
4. put in on the market, still below mineral value, price just high enough to cover your reduced mineral costs, be sure to make the stack large enough that people will not just buy it away within minutes.
5.watch other competitors lose their nerves and lower their prices even below your price.
6. buy their stuff and withdraw your own sell order.
7. put the combined stack back on the market for a normal prize. Alternatively, go back to 2, rinse and repeat.

Worst thing that could happen is that your intially underprized stack will be quickly sold. But since you got your minerals cheaper, you will effectively not lose isk- so it is a safe way to speculate with a very high potential profit.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Vigdis Thorisdottir
Doomheim
#114 - 2011-12-20 16:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Vigdis Thorisdottir
What a shallow understanding of opportunity cost everyone seems to have. Sounds like thirteen year-olds parroting something they heard from one of their elders.

Don´t forget, that every time a ship is sold by a 'I value my mining time less than you' person, you are actually LOSING money because you didn't sell one of your ships instead.

As others have said, if you have half a brain, you just buy the underpriced product and re-list or reproccess it. No big deal, and a version of this happens in RL all the time with larger companies buying out smaller up-and-coming competitors.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#115 - 2011-12-20 16:48:49 UTC
Vigdis Thorisdottir wrote:
Don´t forget, that every time a ship is sold by a 'I value my mining time less than you' person, you are actually LOSING money because you didn't sell one of your ships instead.
This is presumably the origin of the 'greifing' the OP supposedly experienced.

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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#116 - 2011-12-20 17:01:54 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
False analogy; something which cannot be done, vs something you do not wish to do. Opportunity cost indeed does not apply to the first one (or rather, would have to factor in the 'cost' of the repucussions), whereas it does apply to the second.


In a sandbox game, you do what is fun. In essence your character cannot do those activities which you do not enjoy. If you want to make the calculations entirely inside the game, that's how it works. If you want to expand it to include all the things you as a player MIGHT be doing, then you have to attempt to include the intangible, subjective value of entertainment.

It's irrelevant and I find it hilarious that you're trying to apply it to how someone chooses to play a game.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Disdaine
#117 - 2011-12-20 17:03:23 UTC
OP's mistake was thinking eve is a game, a fun way to kill some time.
Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2011-12-20 17:08:40 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
No, it is objective and quantifiable.


Ok, let's hear it - what is the opportunity cost of me mining veld for one hour?
Amro One
One.
#119 - 2011-12-20 17:12:17 UTC
Minerals/ore is free if you can flip.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#120 - 2011-12-20 17:14:17 UTC
How does opportunity cost factor into running a hulk while watching season two of Heroes on Netflix?

If time is money then I'd say you are doing pretty well in that respect as a miner considering how little time you are actually putting in for your iskies.

Mr Epeen Cool