Intergalactic Summit

Indeed.

EDIT: And the thought occurs to me that in fact, even former and current slaves are not able to speak for all slaves. Theirs, after all, will not be THE experience of slavery, but AN experience of slavery.

Any honest conversation on the subject must acknowledge not only the mass suffering and indignity, but also the slaves for whom that's just how their life is, or even the ones who are willing and enthusiastic participants in their own serfdom.

"Slave" after all, in the Empire is a spectrum that can encompass at one end some poor bastard mining salt with their fingernails and being lashed seven ways to half-dead in lieu of breakfast, and at the other end a tutor educating a new generation of Heirs in etiquette and diplomacy, who dines and lives just as well as the masters of the Holding.

And somewhere in between those extremes must be legions of farm hands, factory workers, personal assistants and so on whose status as a slave has never really inconvenienced them and, if they're not perfectly happy with life, they're at least not sufficiently unhappy as to risk everything in the search for an alternative. Folks like the Kameiras, for instance.

I've never experienced slavery myself? Fine, fair enough. Which of the thousands of possible slavery experiences are we discussing here?

I think hell must have frozen over. I found myself agreeing with something Sinti Vailatti wrote.

The unacceptable kind. I'll leave it to you to figure out where you draw the line. I've drawn mine. There's not really much else to discuss in that regard, but one thing is rather certain. I'll weigh the words of someone who knows and understands slavery in their very bones over someone who has never experienced it themselves. This goes for most any topic, and is often why you'll find me agreeing with enemies like Samira Kernher over freeborn allies, because there's theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge.

Those two tend to differ when it comes to very important nuances.

This is one of those subjects where discussion is often entirely pointless, without a very structured and guided debate, prepared for and planned out ahead. Slavery all on its own is a very complicated subject once approached from multiple angles and perspectives (freeborn, slaveborn, freed by force, freed by emancipation, still enslaved, willing, unwilling, indoctrinated, actual believers, Holders and caretakers), and is just about the concept of slavery itself. Then add the religion and it suddenly got five times more complicated, then add internal Imperial politics for another force multiplier and on top of that we of course have the financial realities of Imperial economics to deal with as well. We haven't even mentioned the external politics, beliefs, economics, cultures and philosophies yet, nor any universal tendencies of morality and ethics.

Discuss the above in any reasonable fashion while adhering to certain standards, and I'll congratulate you on a feat that has never been achieved in the history of New Eden.

This is a discussion that can really only be reasonably had within agreed upon frameworks, staying within certain boundaries as to subject (let's say the validity of using enslavement for spiritual, moral and ethical guidance as an example), agree on what the range of valid arguments can be (falsifiable claims, staying out of un-provable religious claims for instance, etc), and both agreeing that 'I don't know' is a valid and fair argument if the discussion goes to perspectives and angles neither sides can claim knowledge or understanding of. And so on.

Both sides would also be very well served by actually studying the subject matter's nuances, while trying to sticking to facts rather than beliefs, but that's quite a bit to ask out of any discussion I find.

In short, this thread and all other IGS threads on the subject of slavery? Pure and utter venting or ego-stroking for entertainment purposes while bored. They have absolutely no use other than entertaining a few readers or misleading others unfortunate enough not to understand the above.

I don't speak for any slaves. I speak for me and me alone. That said, my experience, history and life's efforts do make me an authority on the subject and I certainly speak with confidence on it. I just don't expect it to have even the slightest real effect in these media, any more than there'd be if I shouted it out an open airlock. The latter might actually prove healthier for the mind, in the long run.

To clarify, Yes I have and it was certainly not fun. Luckily it was only for a few short years, which I accept is nothing compared to that of some poor souls


For those who are taking my words as supporting slavery, that is not what I mean and I oppose slavery to the core.

However my point is just a simple one that someone else mentioned, that at the end of the day you are always serving someone above you. You do have more of a choice when living in minmatar or gallente society.

The caldari one is a weird one to talk about. You serve a company and lose all honour and respect if you disavow it, But it is so enshrined in the culture and attitudes of the people that it is the way of life, And it has made them a very powerful people, They are one of the smallest empires but are capable of holding their own against bigger entities.

To the OP, I commend what you have done truly, because as stated multiple times, Regardless of my opinions on what feels like slavery, they still have more of a choice in what you have done, At least if that citadel gets blown up (Not saying it will) there is the knowledge that they chose to stay there and were not forced to.

Caldari citizens have legal rights and entitlements, and a contract with the corporation. You're not a serf to them, you've entered into an agreement to work, and to be fairly and properly rewarded and recognized for that work in the context of your peers and competitors.

Caldari citizens own property, may purchase shares (or more commonly enter into a shareholding cartel) so as to become politically and executively enfranchised. Caldari citizens, on average, in fact have the highest standard of living in New Eden, and certainly enjoy better health.

We're notorious for gambling away our income, and in fact per-capita spending on recreation and luxuries is high enough to serve as the backbone of one of the megacorps.

So in short, Caldari have legal rights and freedoms, social mobility, disposable income and agency in our life decisions.

Doesn't sound much like slavery to me...

The point of my agreeing with Deva's comment was to show that it's not just 'people opposed to her' that it applies to, since for my part I consider her conversational-allies from the freedom-conquers-all camp to be equally as suspect as Isu. Perhaps that was too vague.

There is, unfortunately, the common error in thinking that's been expressed in this thread and others that every slave is of one mind and background--which is not the case. That's something you've pointed out with your post, for which I'm glad to see. "Slave" is not just one person, and "slavery" is not just one institution and one experience. Acting like freedom will mean the same to everyone disregards the trillions for who it would mean little to nothing. Slaves are people, and people believe many different things and have many different needs and expectations from life.

Broadly speaking, there are two functional types of slave: those who fight the chains and those who accept the chains. That's a very simplified view, and also mutable--sometimes someone can move between these two due to life experiences--but it works as a starting point. The former are the ones for whom freedom really means something, and who are the most likely to become capsuleers and engage in these sorts of discussions (as they have the ambition and ability to plot out their own life and pursue it, and feel the most disagreement with their life as a slave). But that shouldn't mean one forgets about the trillions who simply accept what they are, even appreciate it, and move on with their lives.

Why is there the concern about free people arguing about slaves? Because from the perspective of a slave it is yet one more person trying to use us. The free people who engage in these discussions have a tendency to treat slaves as a cause for their own benefit, using the emancipation or support or comparison to them as a way to prove to others of their own "noble character" (or ignoble, as in the case of those who talk about killing slaves to make themselves seem so evil and ruthless), or as a subject on whom or through to push their own ideological beliefs ("everyone is a slave, really!" or "freedom!" or, yes, "amarr victor"). You see that here, with this thread, someone making a big showing about their releasing of their slaves in the hopes of convincing people (or even convincing himself) of the rightness of his new beliefs. Slaves are pawns. When a free person is speaking to or about us, we expect that it is because they want something from us, because they have a need of us. Actually helping us for our own benefit? Really caring? That is what is hard to believe. Other slaves, then, become the only ones we feel can speak with a level of real empathy and understanding. Of course that is also not entirely true, as slaves use each other as much as free people do.



And yes, this thread has drifted off topic rather far. But that is how these threads go. People finish responding to the OP and start responding to each other. Forums are a dynamic discussion medium.

Unlike you, I actually did (I even have been working for them briefly), and when I said that Amarr Empire enslaves only criminals and prisoners of war, I was telling you THEIR words.

So instead of shoving yourself deeper into that garbage hole you are putting your head in, you'd better go talk with them yourself. They will tell you the same thing I have been telling you from the start.

Though, if you'd like to revel in ignorance and incompetence, please do continue. That's your life and your reputation, not mine.

I guess we can ignore Gallante prison camps then since they only imprison criminals and POWs ...... They just as much as the amarr and the caldari and even the Republic commit atrocities, know who you really fight for... Only a fool fights for their government, fight to inspire your people or your accomplishing nothing.

For the record I am being loud about the freeing of my slaves not for my own reasons, but in the hopes that more people will follow in my footsteps and free their slaves.

By the way, the arguement that we should not free slaves because some of them do not want to be free is literally the dumbest arguement I have ever heard. Freedom is the future, end slavery. Love will prevail, hatred and racism will die.

Kameira are not slaves.

We are not brought up in chains, there are no whips or vitoxin or microcontrollers. We do not belong to Holders we belong to god like every soldier does. Being captured as a prisoner of war will never make a Kamiera, no punishment exists or law to create. We are born only. We are not property, service is bartered from the Imperial Navy. We are not. We do not lack our own rights any more than members of any military unit of our caliber do, able to act of our own free will as much as any soldier is able. Often more as our expertise gives us privilege and voice far beyond our rank. Our lives are not happy, they are not meant to be so. Happiness and comfort are the privilege we buy with our deaths, for others. It is Duty and god and purpose that drives us and I swear I am already sick of hearing you insinuate we live the lives we do because It is easy enough to not grate.

You could not be a Kameira, you would have broken or been found unfit before first subigo. No one who could not face that challenge can speak as to the motivations of those who have embraced and thrived under it. I agreed with you when you said those who have not the experience cannot still empathize but then you make the most simple mistake of empathy and assume.

Your assumption that you know what it is like, that you know enough to empathize. Your assumption in drawing a conclusion that makes me want to subject you to a single day of a Kameira's life just to watch you end up in the hospital. Perhaps at the absolute prime of your life you would be barely capable of enduring what every Kameira does when they are six. But your attitude would have you at the back of the pack and I know you would not survive the night. Yet you open your mouth and say Kameiras "Are not sufficiently unhappy to risk everything to search for an alternative."

Kameiras die on their first day of training. Kameiras risk everything in existing. We risk everything more times than you will in your life before our training is finished and THEN we join our combat units as soldiers in war. When it comes to Kameiras, keep your mouth shut about what you do not know. Empathize with what I would do to you for speaking like you have and think.


This entire thread is idiotic, some holder has given up his slaves and his title for a different life and all of you spend pages discussing the definitions of freedom and honor. If you need to define freedom then you have not had it taken away from you. If you cannot tell what is honorable and what is not then you have strayed too far from god or too far up your own ass. Conflating its meaning with reputation and virtue... Honor means only adhering to a code faithfully; no witness but god matters. His code made the once-holder dishonorable in keeping slaves and title. His actions because of this have made him dishonorable just as surely.

Adhering to a code. The first of which before all others was a mother dying for her child, was a wounded man killing the one who wounded him. Honor was knowing that if he died of his wounds before he reached his goal, god and nature would forgive his killer. And yet all of you argue if this once-holder acted honorably instead of doing as honor dictates: Actions, not words.