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Empire or Honour?
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Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#41 - 2016-06-09 01:15:58 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:

Because honor isn't "doing what you feel is right."

"I defected and am a traitor. How am I dishonorable?" You answered your own question. You can't both be a traitor while also being honorable. The two are mutually incompatible. It doesn't matter if you think you're serving the wrong master. Honor means you stay with that master even when you believe they're wrong, because you are oathbound to them.

You can certainly believe you've done the right thing. But you can't call yourself honorable for doing it when it required you to betray people who had put their faith and respect in you. If you were a Holder, then you betrayed your family, by blackening their lineage. You betrayed your liege lord, who had invested in your family the lands and titles that you held in fealty. You betrayed your nation, whose people are now under threat from you. And you betrayed your God.

If you can live with yourself for that, if you truly believe it's the right decision, then by all means, go ahead. But it's not honor.


There may not be honor in betrayal, that much is true. What you have to take into account, is that inaction in the face of dishonor and cruelty is an even worse act of dishonor.

I will not say his actions were honorable, but I will nonetheless respect him for sacrificing so much in order to take the path of the lesser evil, as he and many others would see it. There is honor in doing what must be done, when it is the right thing to do and the alternatives are 'honorable' on paper only.

In the end, honor is a worthless and meaningless concept, I find. Something mostly valued and praised by those who have never really had to make the difficult choices between two evils. What matters most in the end, is that you can say you've not let fear keep you to inaction, and instead made the choice of the lesser evil whenever you could.

That's an 'honor' in its own way, and far more important than the 'honor' of blind obedience.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2016-06-09 01:41:19 UTC
Aurum Exodus,

Brother,

I've been in the same place you are. I've faced the same Crisis of Faith.

I've lived by the Code of the Cyberknight for most of my life. I swore oaths to King and Kingdom and God and Empire.

At the end of the day, God was the only one to keep His side of the bargain.

My oaths were sworn until death. And do you know what? I died. Many, many times, actually. I died and stayed dead for so long that CONCORD listed me as biomass resigned me to Doomheim; yet I returned and still tried to be the servant of God that other men would have me be. No more. Non serviam.

We answer only to God. Only God can judge us and our honor. Ignore the cries of "treachery" and "heresy." you've seen here. In the end, their opinions don't matter a f*ck's worth.

I don't completely share your opinions on slavery. It occurs in many more places than just the Empire. I don't see it in terms of "right" or "wrong." It just is. The Scriptures were right in that we're all slaves to something. Generally-speaking, God. But we're slaves too to other things. God is just the ultimate Master. The slaves I've owned as a Holder are now either free in Khanid, or working within the Angel Cartel. But I gave them a choice that many slaves in Amarr never get.

I'll not turn this into a wall-of-text regarding "freedom" vs "slavery." You're a Capsuleer. You answer to no one unless it's on your terms.

While I wouldn't have chosen the Republic as the best option, I can see why you've made that choice.

As an alternative, I'd like to extend to you the option of joining us here in Fade as we rebuild. Many Amarr within the Horde believe as you do. Your stance is not uncommon. I think you would find this a place that you could call home.

Since I have a lot of experience working with Controlled Personnel populations, I'll offer to assist Jason in getting your people settled. I've founded a few colonies here and can we always use extra help. We also have a record number of Citadels in the region, so your people will have a vast choice in what lives they want to lead from this point forward.

You have that choice too. Don't let the people here convince you otherwise.

By His Light and His Will!

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#43 - 2016-06-09 01:47:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mizhara Del'thul
F*cking hell, that moment when Sinjin Mokk briefly almost makes sense.

I need a drink and I can't have one, damn it all.
Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
#44 - 2016-06-09 01:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kolodi Ramal
Diana Kim wrote:
But the moment they start SPREADING it, it isn't part of their culture anymore, it is their offensive actions.
Just like if Amarr would not just hold slavery for themselves, but jumped into other Empires and started enslaving peoples left-right and advertising slavery everywhere.

Luckily for us, Amarr don't do it, they hold their slavery for themselves. But gallentes... well, they need to be put back into their place with shoes to their faces.

Excuse me???
The majority of slaves in the Empire are Minmatar. One third of the whole Minmatar population in New Eden is enslaved by them. That was not always true. It started with over 100 years of slave raids perpetrated by the Amarr Empire against the Minmatar, starting as soon as they discovered us. Then they escalated to full-scale efforts to enslave all Minmatar by initiating massive acts of aggression in 22480.
Excuse you!
Your low opinion of my people is known, but so is your claim that you're a logical thinker. So you should be able to recognize the deep contradictions between these plain facts of history and what you said.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#45 - 2016-06-09 01:50:05 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
F*cking hell, that moment when Sinjin Mokk briefly almost makes sense.

I need a drink and I can't have one, damn it all.

Whats stopping ya?

Lol
Aurum Exodus
Trauma Inflicting
NO NEED LOOSE FACE
#46 - 2016-06-09 02:39:54 UTC
So let me get this straight, honor is sticking with a master, even if that master is vile and dishonorable? That makes no sense. Doing the right thing, regardless of the cost, that is honour. Me defecting does not dishonor me, obviously I will be branded a traitor in the eyes of the amarr empire, but that does not change me. I am still me, and I walk the path of honour. Slavery and Tyranny will end, or I will die trying to end them.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#47 - 2016-06-09 02:54:12 UTC
Its a matter of perspective, to someone like myself its honorable, though not something to blindly trust. To them its the ultimate dishonor for the obvious reason of its against them. What is it to you? That's all that matters in the end.
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2016-06-09 02:59:42 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
At least there they get to choose if they stay or not. It's far better than being in the hands of the Amarr, they have control over their own fate now. If they die in that citadel then they died free to make that choice, same as any other civilian who lives there.


"At least they're able to choose." Yes? And? Is this supposed to be something good just by its own virtue?


I see you're one of those very rare capsuleers that is completely lacking in empathy. So I'll make this easy for you.

Do you like your own ability to choose? How would you feel if it was taken from you? Pretty ****, eh? Same goes for everyone. It's a universal virtue, which is about the most objective a virtue can get.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2016-06-09 03:00:42 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:
Mitara Newelle wrote:
You were free to do what you wish with your slaves and your titles. If you wanted to be free of them it was quite simple to be so. However, you have gone much further. You are a traitor with the blood of your former countrymen on your hands. May you be stricken from the Book of Records for your treachery.


For those who find slavery as an institution truly abhorrent, serving the empire that promotes and preserves it as an institution is not an option.

That's just a slavery....
Claiming this is the same as saying you are leaving your country and betraying all your friends because you don't like schools and want to live in place where are no schools.


What the hell are you on about? There are schools in the Republic.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Aurum Exodus
Trauma Inflicting
NO NEED LOOSE FACE
#50 - 2016-06-09 03:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurum Exodus
Deitra Vess wrote:
Its a matter of perspective, to someone like myself its honorable, though not something to blindly trust. To them its the ultimate dishonor for the obvious reason of its against them. What is it to you? That's all that matters in the end.


I mean I do not care for the most part, I am going to do the right thing, while they continue to be slavers, so yeah I have the moral high ground here regardless. I just think it is unfair to say that if you change masters, you lose your honor. If your master is honorable, I could see it, but if leaving a wicked and evil master is dishonor, and standing firm with that vile thing is honor, than your sense of what honor is...........is lost.

Again, between the righteous and honorable path, and the vile wicked slave driven Empire, I choose the righteous path. Honour lives.


On a side note, I am still waiting for an answer to some of my questions I asked earlier. Those were honest questions, and I would love honest answers.
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2016-06-09 03:07:17 UTC
Tristan Valentina wrote:
It is something we as capsuleers give up in the journey to being demigods.


The myth that just won't die. We are not demigods, get over yourself. You're a human with a cord in your back, made out of recycled flesh paste.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Aurum Exodus
Trauma Inflicting
NO NEED LOOSE FACE
#52 - 2016-06-09 03:10:28 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
Aurum Exodus,

Brother,

I've been in the same place you are. I've faced the same Crisis of Faith.

I've lived by the Code of the Cyberknight for most of my life. I swore oaths to King and Kingdom and God and Empire.

At the end of the day, God was the only one to keep His side of the bargain.

My oaths were sworn until death. And do you know what? I died. Many, many times, actually. I died and stayed dead for so long that CONCORD listed me as biomass resigned me to Doomheim; yet I returned and still tried to be the servant of God that other men would have me be. No more. Non serviam.

We answer only to God. Only God can judge us and our honor. Ignore the cries of "treachery" and "heresy." you've seen here. In the end, their opinions don't matter a f*ck's worth.

I don't completely share your opinions on slavery. It occurs in many more places than just the Empire. I don't see it in terms of "right" or "wrong." It just is. The Scriptures were right in that we're all slaves to something. Generally-speaking, God. But we're slaves too to other things. God is just the ultimate Master. The slaves I've owned as a Holder are now either free in Khanid, or working within the Angel Cartel. But I gave them a choice that many slaves in Amarr never get.

I'll not turn this into a wall-of-text regarding "freedom" vs "slavery." You're a Capsuleer. You answer to no one unless it's on your terms.

While I wouldn't have chosen the Republic as the best option, I can see why you've made that choice.

As an alternative, I'd like to extend to you the option of joining us here in Fade as we rebuild. Many Amarr within the Horde believe as you do. Your stance is not uncommon. I think you would find this a place that you could call home.

Since I have a lot of experience working with Controlled Personnel populations, I'll offer to assist Jason in getting your people settled. I've founded a few colonies here and can we always use extra help. We also have a record number of Citadels in the region, so your people will have a vast choice in what lives they want to lead from this point forward.

You have that choice too. Don't let the people here convince you otherwise.

By His Light and His Will!




Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate your offer in fade, But I am building a new home with my new family in Ushra 'Khan who have thus far treated me very well. ((I have alts, I may consider PH with them, I will think about it))
Tritan Skjorn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2016-06-09 03:13:50 UTC
Oh Look at this, A bunch of amarr and minnies argueing and yelling at each other over slavery and honor................wow thats original.

tl:dr Amarr Victor, the republic is gonna burn.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#54 - 2016-06-09 03:22:37 UTC
Tritan Skjorn wrote:
Oh Look at this, A bunch of amarr and minnies argueing and yelling at each other over slavery and honor................wow thats original.

tl:dr Amarr Victor, the republic is gonna burn.

There's an argument going on? Someone needs to toughen up if this looks like an argument to you.....
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#55 - 2016-06-09 03:27:52 UTC
Aurum Exodus wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Its a matter of perspective, to someone like myself its honorable, though not something to blindly trust. To them its the ultimate dishonor for the obvious reason of its against them. What is it to you? That's all that matters in the end.


I mean I do not care for the most part, I am going to do the right thing, while they continue to be slavers, so yeah I have the moral high ground here regardless. I just think it is unfair to say that if you change masters, you lose your honor. If your master is honorable, I could see it, but if leaving a wicked and evil master is dishonor, and standing firm with that vile thing is honor, than your sense of what honor is...........is lost.

Again, between the righteous and honorable path, and the vile wicked slave driven Empire, I choose the righteous path. Honour lives.


On a side note, I am still waiting for an answer to some of my questions I asked earlier. Those were honest questions, and I would love honest answers.


So do the right thing, take your knocks, and prove to those who question you why your not worth questioning. Give it time and dedicate yourself to it and it wont be long.
Aurum Exodus
Trauma Inflicting
NO NEED LOOSE FACE
#56 - 2016-06-09 04:40:10 UTC
I agree.

((BTW shout out to everyone sending me the nice mails in game, I appreciate it alot. For those of you sending me 30 paragraph hate mails.............I want you to know I am laughing my ass off as I read them, so please continue to send them as liberally as you possibly can))
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#57 - 2016-06-09 05:04:28 UTC
((People are actually doing that? Wow, my character doesn't trust ya nor would take anything you say in militia chat too serious but still, that's kinda sad))
Aurelius Exodus
Welp Fleet
#58 - 2016-06-09 05:58:14 UTC
Aurum........................................Honestly I do not know what to say. We share the same father but I feel like now you are a complete stranger to me. I do not understand why you had to throw all of this away. I am sure something could have been done,l but now you have gone too far. Your wife Helena will come and live with Mara and I since you left her. Begging her to come with you was a grave insult to her and to the entire family. Thanks to you my devotion to the Empire is in question, so I am out of commision in the 24th Crusade, but should I re-instated, how I will long for the day I find you. Since it is honour you so desperately seek, maybe you will die with some.

Farewell brother

AMARR VICTOR
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#59 - 2016-06-09 08:27:26 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:
Mitara Newelle wrote:
You were free to do what you wish with your slaves and your titles. If you wanted to be free of them it was quite simple to be so. However, you have gone much further. You are a traitor with the blood of your former countrymen on your hands. May you be stricken from the Book of Records for your treachery.


For those who find slavery as an institution truly abhorrent, serving the empire that promotes and preserves it as an institution is not an option.

That's just a slavery....
Claiming this is the same as saying you are leaving your country and betraying all your friends because you don't like schools and want to live in place where are no schools.


What the hell are you on about? There are schools in the Republic.

Yes. There are schools in Republic and slavery in the Empire. If you still fail to comprehend this, gallentean, why I brough it about schools - they are both social constructs to educate and introduce peoples into the society. And just as slavery, school system is hated by quite a lot of people (especially by kids who fail at learning).

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#60 - 2016-06-09 10:09:57 UTC
Aurum Exodus wrote:
So let me get this straight, honor is sticking with a master, even if that master is vile and dishonorable? That makes no sense. Doing the right thing, regardless of the cost, that is honour. Me defecting does not dishonor me, obviously I will be branded a traitor in the eyes of the amarr empire, but that does not change me.

"Vile"?

Well, there are two cases, where you have pledged your loyalty to your master directly or not.

If you haven't, and your master has committed something unlawful, you are obliged to report him to his master or arrest him yourself. In that case you will either be supported by others and they will replace your master (maybe even with you), or they will support him (if his actions will be found honorable and lawful) and will arrest or kill you for the mutiny. And of course you can request your master or your master's master to transfer you to a different master.

In the case that you have pledged your loyalty to your master directly and you don't agree with his actions, there is only one way: to take your own life standing in front of your master to show him his way is either not honorable or not lawful. If his misdeeds aren't enough for you to kill yourself for them, then either:
- your master isn't dishonorable enough;
- you are dishonorable as him (either for following him in dishonor or by your cowardice to kill yourself because of his dishonor).


Aurum Exodus wrote:
I am still me, and I walk the path of honour.

Not anymore. The traitor can't walk the path of honour.

Aurum Exodus wrote:
Slavery and Tyranny will end, or I will die trying to end them.

Neither slavery nor tyranny don't worth fighting for or against, not speaking dying for or against. They are irrelevant.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.