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Was the destruction of Nouvelle Rouvenor necessary?

Author
Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#101 - 2016-06-03 13:26:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Neph wrote:
Fair enough, but until I find a hypothesis B, I'll stick to hypothesis A.


Why? You don't NEED to stick to a hypothesis. If there are glaring problems with A, then go ahead and drop it. "I don't know" is not only a valid position, it should be the default position.

Neph wrote:
A citizen of what? Kaalakiota, or the "State"? Did he see himself of some bigger, intraempire order? If history tells us anything, it's that it probably wasn't really any of those--he was just a man seeking power. My two isk.


Never underestimate just how dangerous well-intentioned people can be. The one thing I don't think of Heth is that he was a megalomaniac - I'm happily convinced that he genuinely believed everything he did was for the good of the Caldari people. He may have been wildly wrong, but I think he was honest.

Selfless tyrants who think that the ends justify the means are typically the worse kind, both in terms of the depths to which they sink, and also in terms of incompetence. Any purely selfish tyrant who was capable of becoming a tyrant would typically be canny enough to foresee and neuter the same forces that ultimately collapsed Heth's regime.

Neph wrote:
Good points. I forgot about the timing on that. Do you think he coordinated Malkalen from within, giving him the foothold he needed to take over KK and, dually, strike a blow against the Liberal interests that were most likely to be (and were) opposed to his leadership?


No.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Natheniel
Mostly Sober
NullSechnaya Sholupen
#102 - 2016-06-03 14:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Natheniel
Jason Galente wrote:

And by the way, there is no way Alexander Noir was piloting that Nyx, it would fly in the face of his entire life's work and his general disposition as testified to by hundreds of people who worked closely with him over several decades. It's just a little bit too strange for me to believe he flipped 180 degrees to bomb a peace conference of all things. I grew up admiring Noir, and the man who piloted that Nyx is not the same man whose lifetime ideals shaped my own. Admirals of even the State once spoke of him with deep admiration. The Gallente and Caldari were so close to bridging the gap. What happened? It certainly wasn't some accident, and I doubt Noir turned into a murderous terrorist overnight, two weeks after receiving the Aidonis for his work bridging that gap.

I think very powerful, multi-empyrean corporate interests within both the State and the Federation were pushing for war to make a profit at the cost of billions of lives.


You know, the bit everyone is forgetting, is that it IS entirely possible that he was piloting that Nyx. But there is a reason behind it that none of you seem to know about. Let me remind you of his final words.

""I have an obligation to my beloved Federation to settle accounts with this hateful race, these cursed Caldarians. For my entire life, I have mourned for Hueromont, wishing, praying, willing for the day when I could strike back on behalf of those souls who perished. Fate has bestowed upon me this grand opportunity, this great day, to make vengeance for all those who gave their lives for the Federation, the true guardian of our precious Gallentean race.... may you rest in peace now, brave souls of Hueromont, and you, kindred spirits of Nouvelle Rouvenor, knowing that I will take back what was stolen from you... Curse you, Caldari... may I take as many of you with me that I can!"

So, for those of you who don't know, Hueromont was the city that Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba rammed his fighter carrier into while attacking gallente prime and killed 2 million people in the process. Noir was a survivor of that war and as we all know, war does terrible things to one's mind.

Now, I'm not justifying what he did, I am simply showing that it's possible that he did this. War can destroy good people, drive them mad with pain and grief. He could have been the most pure soul among us and still harbor this darkness. All of us are guilty of atrocities and yet we judge the actions of others when they falter and fall. I say we should take a good hard look at whats been going on from the first war to the current one. It is a constant back and forth of one genocidal incident after another and all we can do is clammer to point the most righteous finger at the other. Gallente attacked Caldari Prime and killed millions, Caldari attacked Gallente Prime in response and killed millions. Neither side is innocent.

Also, the first of you to even attempt the "WELL THEY STARTED IT" Will forever brand themselves a child, because the last time I heard that argument used was when I was in grade school. Human lives matter more than who started it

"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."

Jason Galente
Hole Punchers
I Could Do Better
#103 - 2016-06-03 15:31:03 UTC
Your hypothesis seems to be that he feigned a love of peace for his entire post-war life (over a century), built up a false reputation amongst hundreds of highly intelligent people within all major empires as a peace loving philanthropist, all to kill any chance of ending the very conflicts that took the lives of those he served alongside, and kill the only people within both governments willing to work out that peace in the process. Seems a bit dubious to me, and it seems much more likely to see a money trail starting to form at the opportunity presented at that conference to kill any idea of peace for at least a decade, a very good incentive for the military industrial complex to step in. I don't know who specifically piloted that Nyx and who, if anyone, organized it. But I maintain my skepticism that Noir had the capacity to do such a thing.

If your theory is correct, Alexander Noir is not only the most brilliant man to have ever lived to have been able to accomplish a century of scheming and planning to have that opportunity, but he is also the most manipulative man to have ever lived for all of that to have been a ploy, for him to have built his entire career on a disposition that was actually the opposite of his own.

I find that very hard to believe and I tend to be a good judge of people.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Natheniel
Mostly Sober
NullSechnaya Sholupen
#104 - 2016-06-03 15:41:52 UTC
I am not saying he faked all of that. I am saying that atrocity can bury itself deep in our souls. We can be the most pure of person and action, but then at a critical moment, the darkness within can spring out and cause us to act out that trauma in the worst of ways. I am saying that while he may be a great man, he could also have been a very troubled man, one that even he himself never realized.

"Life is as a storm, one must be prepared for the hardship and scorn. But with in this is a light, one for which we must fight. For hope is our weapon and our dreams are our shield. When fully armed we can not be felled from the field."

Jason Galente
Hole Punchers
I Could Do Better
#105 - 2016-06-03 15:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Galente
Natheniel wrote:
I am not saying he faked all of that. I am saying that atrocity can bury itself deep in our souls. We can be the most pure of person and action, but then at a critical moment, the darkness within can spring out and cause us to act out that trauma in the worst of ways. I am saying that while he may be a great man, he could also have been a very troubled man, one that even he himself never realized.


But all testimony to his character indicates the war mellowed him out and made him hate war and especially the racial feud with the Caldari. In order to believe that his final words were indicative of his genuine motivations, he would've had to have made a deliberate effort to hide his true feelings and intentions for over a century. I think there would be some evidence of that, some crack in the armor, if that were the case, over such a long period of time.

I find it hard to believe that one flies a Nyx into a station on a whim of passion. Somebody that impulsive would not be likely to rise to the station in life that Noir did.

Edit: I just realized that it sounds like I made a really awful pun there. Wasn't intended.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Aradina Varren
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#106 - 2016-06-03 16:04:01 UTC
This thread is confusingly derailed. Maybe it's all a trick by Diana Kim, while we're all fighting here she steals all of our nice things.

Feels Pretty Soft to Me.

Arnulf Ogunkoya
Clan Ogunkoya
Electus Matari
#107 - 2016-06-03 16:24:42 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:
Natheniel wrote:
I am not saying he faked all of that. I am saying that atrocity can bury itself deep in our souls. We can be the most pure of person and action, but then at a critical moment, the darkness within can spring out and cause us to act out that trauma in the worst of ways. I am saying that while he may be a great man, he could also have been a very troubled man, one that even he himself never realized.


But all testimony to his character indicates the war mellowed him out and made him hate war and especially the racial feud with the Caldari. In order to believe that his final words were indicative of his genuine motivations, he would've had to have made a deliberate effort to hide his true feelings and intentions for over a century. I think there would be some evidence of that, some crack in the armor, if that were the case, over such a long period of time.

I find it hard to believe that one flies a Nyx into a station on a whim of passion. Somebody that impulsive would not be likely to rise to the station in life that Noir did.

Edit: I just realized that it sounds like I made a really awful pun there. Wasn't intended.


Assuming Noir's post war career wasn't a lie is it possible that either someone clonejacked him or he was being controlled in some other fashion? Some sort of tech derived from TCMC's or Sansha style cyber say? Granted to do this you would need to gain access to him at the right moment.

Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.

Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#108 - 2016-06-03 17:01:44 UTC
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:
Natheniel wrote:
I am not saying he faked all of that. I am saying that atrocity can bury itself deep in our souls. We can be the most pure of person and action, but then at a critical moment, the darkness within can spring out and cause us to act out that trauma in the worst of ways. I am saying that while he may be a great man, he could also have been a very troubled man, one that even he himself never realized.


But all testimony to his character indicates the war mellowed him out and made him hate war and especially the racial feud with the Caldari. In order to believe that his final words were indicative of his genuine motivations, he would've had to have made a deliberate effort to hide his true feelings and intentions for over a century. I think there would be some evidence of that, some crack in the armor, if that were the case, over such a long period of time.

I find it hard to believe that one flies a Nyx into a station on a whim of passion. Somebody that impulsive would not be likely to rise to the station in life that Noir did.

Edit: I just realized that it sounds like I made a really awful pun there. Wasn't intended.


Assuming Noir's post war career wasn't a lie is it possible that either someone clonejacked him or he was being controlled in some other fashion? Some sort of tech derived from TCMC's or Sansha style cyber say? Granted to do this you would need to gain access to him at the right moment.


Okaam's razor says that's implausible.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka

James Syagrius
Chatelain Auxiliary Response
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#109 - 2016-06-03 20:40:06 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Aradina Varren wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:

You have an interesting definition of 'unprovoked'.
But still... the only thing I see is that you are simply the next incarnation of the apparently perpetual Caldari cult of victim-hood.
By the way, I noticed you left out the most important bit when you quoted me….
But then your kin are the masters of selective forgetfulness, especially when it comes to your guilt.
James Syagrius wrote:
Aradina Varren wrote:
The Gallente in this thread are shining examples of Federation citizens. They're scrambling for the moral high ground but seem to have forgotten that they crashed a Titan into it. It's disgusting.
Well aren't you clever...
You should know however that I would never 'scramble' for something I already possess.
That and I don't think the pilot of that accursed ship was Gallente.

I suggest you re-read the first paragraph.
If you're piloting a ship and I shoot you, causing you to crash into a mining colony, who would be guilty for the deaths of the miners within? (It's me. I committed the act of shooting you that lead to the destruction. You would be a victim in this case. If you reply "But the Caldari put the Titan there in the first place!" that will further prove my point as to your lack of self awareness.
A Federation supporter accusing Caldari of having a victim-hood cult is hilarious. Almost every justification for continued aggression relies on the idea that the State is persecuting the Federation. Which is hilarious since almost every military campaign by the State has been defensive or retaliatory. For the last two hundred years at least, we've been defending ourselves. We don't forget our guilt. We accept it and strive to fix the damage caused by it, Heth was a mistake and he was treated like one. We accept that he should never have been given power and removed it.
Thank you for not addressing my points and instead refusing to accept that the Federation has any guilt. You continue to prove my point. You lack of any self awareness is very helpful.

Would of, could of, should of….

If the thing hadn’t of been, it wouldn’t have needed to be disposed of.

It was a gun pointed at the head of the Federation, ‘you’ knew it, and so did 'we'.

‘You’ simply didn’t think 'we' would risk its removal.

Wrong again.

But I am told by my more dovish friends that ‘we’ should all be happy with the very amicable situation that currently exists.

The thing is gone, the threat removed, and 'you' have re-occupied some of Luminaire VII.

Funny how it doesn’t feel like win.. win..
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Clan Ogunkoya
Electus Matari
#110 - 2016-06-03 20:42:11 UTC
Neph wrote:
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:
Assuming Noir's post war career wasn't a lie is it possible that either someone clonejacked him or he was being controlled in some other fashion? Some sort of tech derived from TCMC's or Sansha style cyber say? Granted to do this you would need to gain access to him at the right moment.


Okaam's razor says that's implausible.


Then that razor needs a bit of sharpening. What's implausible is someone working towards a goal for around a century and then throwing it away in an instant of totally uncharacteristic madness.

Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.

Aradina Varren
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#111 - 2016-06-03 21:04:29 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:

Would of, could of, should of….

If the thing hadn’t of been, it wouldn’t have needed to be disposed of.

It was a gun pointed at the head of the Federation, ‘you’ knew it, and so did 'we'.

‘You’ simply didn’t think 'we' would risk its removal.

Wrong again.

But I am told by my more dovish friends that ‘we’ should all be happy with the very amicable situation that currently exists.

The thing is gone, the threat removed, and 'you' have re-occupied some of Luminaire VII.

Funny how it doesn’t feel like win.. win..



Thank you for agreeing with me. It's very good of you to concede, even if it took you this long.

Your historical revisionism is still obvious due to your phrasing, but I'm sure that will pass in time.

Really, we should have destroyed Gallente Prime. After all, it had a defensive fleet. That was just a big gun pointed at Caldari Prime, ready to kill innocents. Mostly children. It would have been justified to attack, as you've stated. Right? Then, we should have claimed at least half of its surface as ours and oppressed the population native to it, for at least two hundred years. That's the right thing to do.

That's the Gallente thing to do.

Feels Pretty Soft to Me.

Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#112 - 2016-06-03 21:17:14 UTC
Neph wrote:
Okaam's razor says that's implausible.


The Razor simply states that, all other things being equal, whichever explanation requires the fewest assumptions is the one most likely to be true.

The idea that Noir orchestrated a century-long campaign of private hatred that manifested itself as throwing himself into sustained, constructive and effective peace activism in the hopes that this might - might, with no guarantees - someday put him in a situation to ram the station hosting a peace summit and that all of the starship deflection safety features built into said station - you know, the ones that stop us from ramming our own supercarriers into each others' outposts or whatever - would fail at the precise moment he chose to do so...

I mean... that's quite the string of assumptions.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#113 - 2016-06-03 21:33:06 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Neph wrote:
Okaam's razor says that's implausible.


The Razor simply states that, all other things being equal, whichever explanation requires the fewest assumptions is the one most likely to be true.

The idea that Noir orchestrated a century-long campaign of private hatred that manifested itself as throwing himself into sustained, constructive and effective peace activism in the hopes that this might - might, with no guarantees - someday put him in a situation to ram the station hosting a peace summit and that all of the starship deflection safety features built into said station - you know, the ones that stop us from ramming our own supercarriers into each others' outposts or whatever - would fail at the precise moment he chose to do so...

I mean... that's quite the string of assumptions.


I'm not saying that. I'm saying that a tale of clonejacking and stealthily implanted TCMCs is an easy thread for Okaam to cut.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka

Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#114 - 2016-06-03 22:14:45 UTC
Neph wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Neph wrote:
Okaam's razor says that's implausible.


The Razor simply states that, all other things being equal, whichever explanation requires the fewest assumptions is the one most likely to be true.

The idea that Noir orchestrated a century-long campaign of private hatred that manifested itself as throwing himself into sustained, constructive and effective peace activism in the hopes that this might - might, with no guarantees - someday put him in a situation to ram the station hosting a peace summit and that all of the starship deflection safety features built into said station - you know, the ones that stop us from ramming our own supercarriers into each others' outposts or whatever - would fail at the precise moment he chose to do so...

I mean... that's quite the string of assumptions.


I'm not saying that. I'm saying that a tale of clonejacking and stealthily implanted TCMCs is an easy thread for Okaam to cut.


Less so than the face-value.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Jason Galente
Hole Punchers
I Could Do Better
#115 - 2016-06-03 22:28:29 UTC
Neph wrote:
Arnulf Ogunkoya wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:
Natheniel wrote:
I am not saying he faked all of that. I am saying that atrocity can bury itself deep in our souls. We can be the most pure of person and action, but then at a critical moment, the darkness within can spring out and cause us to act out that trauma in the worst of ways. I am saying that while he may be a great man, he could also have been a very troubled man, one that even he himself never realized.


But all testimony to his character indicates the war mellowed him out and made him hate war and especially the racial feud with the Caldari. In order to believe that his final words were indicative of his genuine motivations, he would've had to have made a deliberate effort to hide his true feelings and intentions for over a century. I think there would be some evidence of that, some crack in the armor, if that were the case, over such a long period of time.

I find it hard to believe that one flies a Nyx into a station on a whim of passion. Somebody that impulsive would not be likely to rise to the station in life that Noir did.

Edit: I just realized that it sounds like I made a really awful pun there. Wasn't intended.


Assuming Noir's post war career wasn't a lie is it possible that either someone clonejacked him or he was being controlled in some other fashion? Some sort of tech derived from TCMC's or Sansha style cyber say? Granted to do this you would need to gain access to him at the right moment.


Okaam's razor says that's implausible.


And thus the fatal flaw of Occam's Razor. It focuses only on the number of assumptions and not the level of absurdity of each assumption.

The absurdity of a claim is a total sum. One bizarre assumption taints a theory more than a few tiny ones.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#116 - 2016-06-03 22:47:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Neph
Frankly, all the possibilities require a frightening suspension of disbelief. I recognize my choice of belief is certainty tainted by emotion, but at this point, I simply find that many doubts and reasonable points of contradiction are raised, but I've got to believe something, and I choose to believe the explanation that is consistent with Gallente aggression, if not the previous actions of Noir himself.

I expect somebody to be offended by this. Sorry about that. I saw Noir as a hope for reconciliation, and that vision was shattered before me in an extremely painful action that kinda cost me my sister's honor, my mother's life, the family I trusted, the okusaikan I loved, my idolized CEO, and a life of everything I'd ever built or dreamed for. If I'm a little bit dogmatic about having somebody to blame, I hope you understand.

Also, don't Gallentize the spelling of Okaam's name.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka

Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#117 - 2016-06-03 22:52:23 UTC
Neph wrote:
I've got to believe something.


No you don't.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#118 - 2016-06-03 22:56:19 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Neph wrote:
I've got to believe something.


No you don't.


And there we disagree.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka

Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#119 - 2016-06-03 23:33:07 UTC
It's not a question of disagreeing, it's a question of fact. There are an infinite variety of subjects on which you hold no belief at all simply by dint of being ignorant of them.

Do you believe that yttrium aluminium garnet is a more appropriate choice of solid-state laser for use in gem polishing than, say, Er:YLF or Cr:LISAF?

Do you believe that OHK builds are an effective counter the banner meta in Aligned Stars? Do you believe that Shmerk should be made with coriander or with Ba seeds?

You have no opinion on an endless variety of things. Not having an opinion is the default state of being.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

James Syagrius
Chatelain Auxiliary Response
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#120 - 2016-06-03 23:57:05 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Aradina Varren wrote:

Really, we should have destroyed Gallente Prime.


You are most welcome, and I thank you for joining Diana as another valuable tool in helping to educate the Federal population to the policies of conciliation.