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Was the destruction of Nouvelle Rouvenor necessary?

Author
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#81 - 2016-06-02 17:22:38 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:

She has also been offered a myriad of softer approaches by everyone here. Approaches that she has spurned in favor of bloodshed. She doesn't want closure, she wants genocide.

And here, dear readers, you can witness a typical brainwashed gallentean propagandist creature.
This 'pilot' displays abnormal lack of cognitive abilities claiming what I want, that I never said or really wanted anywhere.

Anyone still want to negotiate with gallenteans like that? Anyone thinks that peace with peoples like Osyn possible?

Well... maybe it is possible, but not before they will be locked in asylums or something like that.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#82 - 2016-06-02 17:39:15 UTC
Natheniel wrote:
I am fairly sure it was a Nyx not a Titan.


I still maintain my skepticism over the idea that it was Alexander Noir piloting that thing.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Sinti Vailatti
Angelis Exploration
#83 - 2016-06-02 19:01:14 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Sinti Vailatti wrote:
[quote=Diana Kim]Watch it with the Matari insults *****-face.

At least we "primitive tribals" have free access to our homeworld. What do you have?


Come on, there's no need for that. Some of us are on your side.

Kim meanwhile is basically the dumbest thing the Winds ever allowed to live, so... y'know, maybe start by assuming that whatever Caldari are generally like, we're very different from her.



Ok, ok. Sorry.

I don't think she dumb. I think she's damaged. She's hurt and lashing out at the things that hurt her. Sometimes I want to give her a hug. Other times, I want to kick her in the uterus. Does that make sense?

“Where must we go...we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves?”

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#84 - 2016-06-02 21:13:20 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Natheniel wrote:
I am fairly sure it was a Nyx not a Titan.


I still maintain my skepticism over the idea that it was Alexander Noir piloting that thing.

It was an inside job. Starship fuel can't melt tritanium beams.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

iyammarrok
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2016-06-02 22:06:27 UTC
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
You gallenteans WILL pay for what you have done and for what you are doing.

I'll give you 100 ISK. Will that be enough?


You people like to hold yourself high and mighty, and decry things like bloodshed. And at the same time you intentionally antagonize someone seeking closure. Yes Kim is volatile and she is belligerent to no end. She is also highly annoying and disruptive.

But have you ever taken into consideration that she might just have a point?


Don't delude yourself, The lunatic to whom you refer is not seeking closure, she's just stirring the pot and trying to claim black is white, as usual.
-Tertianus Rethelior

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.

iyammarrok
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2016-06-02 22:07:20 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Natheniel wrote:
I am fairly sure it was a Nyx not a Titan.


I still maintain my skepticism over the idea that it was Alexander Noir piloting that thing.


I think they may have been referring to the Leviathan.
-Tertianus Rethelior

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.

Slayer Liberator
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#87 - 2016-06-02 22:34:33 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:

She has also been offered a myriad of softer approaches by everyone here. Approaches that she has spurned in favor of bloodshed. She doesn't want closure, she wants genocide.

And here, dear readers, you can witness a typical brainwashed gallentean propagandist creature.
This 'pilot' displays abnormal lack of cognitive abilities claiming what I want, that I never said or really wanted anywhere.

Anyone still want to negotiate with gallenteans like that? Anyone thinks that peace with peoples like Osyn possible?

Well... maybe it is possible, but not before they will be locked in asylums or something like that.

You are the one that needs to be locked in an asylum I would even help cover treatment costs
Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#88 - 2016-06-02 23:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Natheniel wrote:
I am fairly sure it was a Nyx not a Titan.


I still maintain my skepticism over the idea that it was Alexander Noir piloting that thing.

It was an inside job. Starship fuel can't melt tritanium beams.


We live in an era where clonejacking is always a possibility - hell, it's happened to me - and I just don't buy that a man who devoted twice as long as I've been alive to the peace process would suddenly and at the worst possible moment turn out to have been lying the whole time so as to engineer an opportunity to derail the peace process.

Gambits like that just don't happen. I don't give a damn about tritanium beams or whatever, but plans so convolutedly long-term and implausible as that would only barely work in the crappiest of holoreels.

The allegation that it was Admiral Noir flying the Wandering Saint makes no sense whatsoever: None.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Jason Galente
Hole Punchers
I Could Do Better
#89 - 2016-06-02 23:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Galente
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
You gallenteans WILL pay for what you have done and for what you are doing.

I'll give you 100 ISK. Will that be enough?


You people like to hold yourself high and mighty, and decry things like bloodshed. And at the same time you intentionally antagonize someone seeking closure. Yes Kim is volatile and she is belligerent to no end. She is also highly annoying and disruptive.

But have you ever taken into consideration that she might just have a point?


She has only a point about the federal government, not the Gallentean people.

Most Gallenteans are freedom-loving, peaceful people. The government currently doesn't reflect that and hasn't for some time. Just as Tibus Heth didn't represent most Caldari in the direction he took their government, and I don't judge the Caldari as a people for his actions.

This is why I am not a fan of all of the empires. They are corrupt, and it's long past time to clean house and start anew.

And by the way, there is no way Alexander Noir was piloting that Nyx, it would fly in the face of his entire life's work and his general disposition as testified to by hundreds of people who worked closely with him over several decades. It's just a little bit too strange for me to believe he flipped 180 degrees to bomb a peace conference of all things. I grew up admiring Noir, and the man who piloted that Nyx is not the same man whose lifetime ideals shaped my own. Admirals of even the State once spoke of him with deep admiration. The Gallente and Caldari were so close to bridging the gap. What happened? It certainly wasn't some accident, and I doubt Noir turned into a murderous terrorist overnight, two weeks after receiving the Aidonis for his work bridging that gap.

I think very powerful, multi-empyrean corporate interests within both the State and the Federation were pushing for war to make a profit at the cost of billions of lives.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

James Syagrius
Chatelain Auxiliary Response
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#90 - 2016-06-03 00:13:20 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Natheniel wrote:
I am fairly sure it was a Nyx not a Titan.

And here I thought she was talking about the unfortunate crash on Luminaire VII (Caldari Prime), forgive my... confusion?
Aradina Varren
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#91 - 2016-06-03 01:37:58 UTC
I was referring to the Shiigeru. The one that was attacked without provocation by Federation forces, the one that crashed into a fairly significant mountain range, causing widespread destruction. More widespread destruction that is, the planet had already been battered by years of warfare.

James Syagrius wrote:
Aradina Varren wrote:
The Gallente in this thread are shining examples of Federation citizens. They're scrambling for the moral high ground but seem to have forgotten that they crashed a Titan into it. It's disgusting.
Well aren't you clever...

You should know however that I would never 'scramble' for something I already possess.


You know that moral high ground is a sarcastic thing don't you? There is no moral high ground to be had here, but you seem to think there is. Thank you for proving my point though.

There isn't much point arguing in here on that subject, the Federation supporters don't argue back they just deny having any part in it, which is exactly what I said they'd do.

Sinti Vailatti wrote:


Ok, ok. Sorry.

I don't think she dumb. I think she's damaged. She's hurt and lashing out at the things that hurt her. Sometimes I want to give her a hug. Other times, I want to kick her in the uterus. Does that make sense?



I too, enjoy beating the mentally ill.
Diana is insane. I don't know why but I'd hazard a guess that she was in some way mistreated by the Federation. Maybe she lost family to them, maybe she was directly hurt by them. Most Caldari have had such things happen to them.

Who knows?

Feels Pretty Soft to Me.

Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#92 - 2016-06-03 01:55:12 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
You gallenteans WILL pay for what you have done and for what you are doing.

I'll give you 100 ISK. Will that be enough?


You people like to hold yourself high and mighty, and decry things like bloodshed. And at the same time you intentionally antagonize someone seeking closure. Yes Kim is volatile and she is belligerent to no end. She is also highly annoying and disruptive.

But have you ever taken into consideration that she might just have a point?


She has only a point about the federal government, not the Gallentean people.

Most Gallenteans are freedom-loving, peaceful people. The government currently doesn't reflect that and hasn't for some time. Just as Tibus Heth didn't represent most Caldari in the direction he took their government, and I don't judge the Caldari as a people for his actions.



But remember, the Gallenteans ELECTED the U-Nats right after Nouvelle Rouvenor. The U-Nats didn't fool them, didn't mince their words, didn't conceal that a military response for Nouvelle Rouvenor was very much in the agenda.

Also, let's not forget the kind of parade the people of the Federation had when Foiritian publically executed the Tripwire saboteur.

In the Federation, even more so than anywhere else, the kind of shite the government does reflect, at least in part, on the voters who put them there in the first place.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

James Syagrius
Chatelain Auxiliary Response
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#93 - 2016-06-03 02:44:39 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Aradina Varren wrote:
I was referring to the Shiigeru. The one that was attacked without provocation by Federation forces, the one that crashed into a fairly significant mountain range, causing widespread destruction. More widespread destruction that is, the planet had already been battered by years of warfare.
James Syagrius wrote:
Aradina Varren wrote:
The Gallente in this thread are shining examples of Federation citizens. They're scrambling for the moral high ground but seem to have forgotten that they crashed a Titan into it. It's disgusting.
Well aren't you clever...
You should know however that I would never 'scramble' for something I already possess.

You know that moral high ground is a sarcastic thing don't you? There is no moral high ground to be had here, but you seem to think there is. Thank you for proving my point though.

You have an interesting definition of 'unprovoked'.

But still... the only thing I see is that you are simply the next incarnation of the apparently perpetual Caldari cult of victim-hood.

By the way, I noticed you left out the most important bit when you quoted me….

But then your kin are the masters of selective forgetfulness, especially when it comes to your guilt.

James Syagrius wrote:
Aradina Varren wrote:
The Gallente in this thread are shining examples of Federation citizens. They're scrambling for the moral high ground but seem to have forgotten that they crashed a Titan into it. It's disgusting.
Well aren't you clever...
You should know however that I would never 'scramble' for something I already possess.
That and I don't think the pilot of that accursed ship was Gallente.
Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#94 - 2016-06-03 03:06:12 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:

And by the way, there is no way Alexander Noir was piloting that Nyx


Okay, so who was it?

Jason Galente wrote:

I think very powerful, multi-empyrean corporate interests within both the State and the Federation were pushing for war to make a profit at the cost of billions of lives.


That I could believe. I could more quickly believe that it were Patriot, particularly Lai Dai and Kaalakiota interests being served. What ships were just rolled out? The Onyx, the Kitsune, the Golem and the Widow. How much did Kaalakiota win in the Empyrean Wars, at least until Heth's demise? How long has Lai Dai been waiting to strike such a blow against Ishukone?

I suspect that if there were any foul play, it was from rot within the State.

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka

Aradina Varren
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#95 - 2016-06-03 04:10:10 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:

You have an interesting definition of 'unprovoked'.

But still... the only thing I see is that you are simply the next incarnation of the apparently perpetual Caldari cult of victim-hood.

By the way, I noticed you left out the most important bit when you quoted me….

But then your kin are the masters of selective forgetfulness, especially when it comes to your guilt.

James Syagrius wrote:
Aradina Varren wrote:
The Gallente in this thread are shining examples of Federation citizens. They're scrambling for the moral high ground but seem to have forgotten that they crashed a Titan into it. It's disgusting.
Well aren't you clever...
You should know however that I would never 'scramble' for something I already possess.
That and I don't think the pilot of that accursed ship was Gallente.


I suggest you re-read the first paragraph.

If you're piloting a ship and I shoot you, causing you to crash into a mining colony, who would be guilty for the deaths of the miners within? (It's me. I committed the act of shooting you that lead to the destruction. You would be a victim in this case. If you reply "But the Caldari put the Titan there in the first place!" that will further prove my point as to your lack of self awareness.

A Federation supporter accusing Caldari of having a victim-hood cult is hilarious. Almost every justification for continued aggression relies on the idea that the State is persecuting the Federation. Which is hilarious since almost every military campaign by the State has been defensive or retaliatory. For the last two hundred years at least, we've been defending ourselves. We don't forget our guilt. We accept it and strive to fix the damage caused by it, Heth was a mistake and he was treated like one. We accept that he should never have been given power and removed it.

Thank you for not addressing my points and instead refusing to accept that the Federation has any guilt. You continue to prove my point. You lack of any self awareness is very helpful.

Feels Pretty Soft to Me.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#96 - 2016-06-03 07:05:48 UTC
Aradina Varren wrote:


I suggest you re-read the first paragraph.

If you're piloting a ship and I shoot you, causing you to crash into a mining colony, who would be guilty for the deaths of the miners within? (It's me. I committed the act of shooting you that lead to the destruction. You would be a victim in this case. If you reply "But the Caldari put the Titan there in the first place!" that will further prove my point as to your lack of self awareness.

A Federation supporter accusing Caldari of having a victim-hood cult is hilarious. Almost every justification for continued aggression relies on the idea that the State is persecuting the Federation. Which is hilarious since almost every military campaign by the State has been defensive or retaliatory. For the last two hundred years at least, we've been defending ourselves. We don't forget our guilt. We accept it and strive to fix the damage caused by it, Heth was a mistake and he was treated like one. We accept that he should never have been given power and removed it.

Thank you for not addressing my points and instead refusing to accept that the Federation has any guilt. You continue to prove my point. You lack of any self awareness is very helpful.

Your argument leaves out a few details. Such as the fact that the titan was well within range of our homeworld as well. I don't know about you, but if I encountered a hostile person with a weapon I'd do my best to take it away from them. In this case, they ended up stabbing themselves in the face with it during the struggle.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#97 - 2016-06-03 07:08:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Neph wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:

And by the way, there is no way Alexander Noir was piloting that Nyx


Okay, so who was it?


See, this always happens. Whenever doubt is expressed over Alexander Noir and the Wandering Saint, this is the challenge that's always run up the flagpole: "Okay genius, if he wasn't flying it, who was?"

The honest answer to that question is "I don't have the first idea."

Being skeptical of hypothesis A does not automatically require the immediate presentation of hypothesis B to replace it.

Neph wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:
I think very powerful, multi-empyrean corporate interests within both the State and the Federation were pushing for war to make a profit at the cost of billions of lives.


That I could believe. I could more quickly believe that it were Patriot, particularly Lai Dai and Kaalakiota interests being served. What ships were just rolled out? The Onyx, the Kitsune, the Golem and the Widow. How much did Kaalakiota win in the Empyrean Wars, at least until Heth's demise? How long has Lai Dai been waiting to strike such a blow against Ishukone?

I suspect that if there were any foul play, it was from rot within the State.


Whatever else he was, TIbus Heth I think truly did consider himself a citizen first and foremost,. When he took over Kaalakiota in the week after the Malkalen incident, if there had been any evidence that the corporation was involved in orchestrating that attack, it would have come to light. After all, that kind of evidence would have been all he needed to really drive the final nails into Haatakan Oiritsuu's coffin, especially if it also gave him the chance to strong-arm Lai Dai.

Megacorp execs conspiring with the Federation to attack the State? Digging that up would have been a massive propaganda victory for the Provists, and we'd still most likely be under their thumb if they had ever been able to find something like that.

Attempting a gambit like that in the political weather of the State during the whole of YC110? You'd have to be irredeemably incompetent to go further than idly considering it, even if you were inclined to do so.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Aradina Varren
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#98 - 2016-06-03 08:02:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Aradina Varren
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Aradina Varren wrote:


I suggest you re-read the first paragraph.

If you're piloting a ship and I shoot you, causing you to crash into a mining colony, who would be guilty for the deaths of the miners within? (It's me. I committed the act of shooting you that lead to the destruction. You would be a victim in this case. If you reply "But the Caldari put the Titan there in the first place!" that will further prove my point as to your lack of self awareness.

A Federation supporter accusing Caldari of having a victim-hood cult is hilarious. Almost every justification for continued aggression relies on the idea that the State is persecuting the Federation. Which is hilarious since almost every military campaign by the State has been defensive or retaliatory. For the last two hundred years at least, we've been defending ourselves. We don't forget our guilt. We accept it and strive to fix the damage caused by it, Heth was a mistake and he was treated like one. We accept that he should never have been given power and removed it.

Thank you for not addressing my points and instead refusing to accept that the Federation has any guilt. You continue to prove my point. You lack of any self awareness is very helpful.

Your argument leaves out a few details. Such as the fact that the titan was well within range of our homeworld as well. I don't know about you, but if I encountered a hostile person with a weapon I'd do my best to take it away from them. In this case, they ended up stabbing themselves in the face with it during the struggle.


But the Titan couldn't take on the Gallente fleet head on. It was defensive. If the State wanted to attack Gallente Prime they would have.

Let's use your analogy. You stole your neighbors house(because you found out they'd planted flowers in their yard.), forced them out, then they came back a while later and forced you out, leaving a single guard with a knife behind. You saw this as a threat to your property so you showed up with a gun, shot the guard and threw his body through the window. This is all after you agreed they could have their house back by the way.

Oh, and now you're arguing that you were justified in your aggression because they thought you would be aggressive and prepared for that possibility.

In reality, the total casualties number in the millions, with severe environmental damage rather than a broken window and blood everywhere.

Do you listen to yourself?

Feels Pretty Soft to Me.

Neph
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#99 - 2016-06-03 12:03:25 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

See, this always happens. Whenever doubt is expressed over Alexander Noir and the Wandering Saint, this is the challenge that's always run up the flagpole: "Okay genius, if he wasn't flying it, who was?"

The honest answer to that question is "I don't have the first idea."

Being skeptical of hypothesis A does not automatically require the immediate presentation of hypothesis B to replace it.


Fair enough, but until I find a hypothesis B, I'll stick to hypothesis A.

Stitcher wrote:
Whatever else he was, TIbus Heth I think truly did consider himself a citizen first and foremost,.


A citizen of what? Kaalakiota, or the "State"? Did he see himself of some bigger, intraempire order? If history tells us anything, it's that it probably wasn't really any of those--he was just a man seeking power. My two isk.

Sticher wrote:
When he took over Kaalakiota in the week after the Malkalen incident, if there had been any evidence that the corporation was involved in orchestrating that attack, it would have come to light. After all, that kind of evidence would have been all he needed to really drive the final nails into Haatakan Oiritsuu's coffin, especially if it also gave him the chance to strong-arm Lai Dai.

Megacorp execs conspiring with the Federation to attack the State? Digging that up would have been a massive propaganda victory for the Provists, and we'd still most likely be under their thumb if they had ever been able to find something like that.

Attempting a gambit like that in the political weather of the State during the whole of YC110? You'd have to be irredeemably incompetent to go further than idly considering it, even if you were inclined to do so.


Good points. I forgot about the timing on that. Do you think he coordinated Malkalen from within, giving him the foothold he needed to take over KK and, dually, strike a blow against the Liberal interests that were most likely to be (and were) opposed to his leadership?

~ Gariushi YC110 // Midular YC115 // Yanala YC115 ~

"Orte Jaitovalte sitasuyti ne obuetsa useuut ishu. Ketsiak ishiulyn." -Yakiya Tovil-Toba-taisoka

Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2016-06-03 12:52:45 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:
I think very powerful, multi-empyrean corporate interests within both the State and the Federation were pushing for war to make a profit at the cost of billions of lives.



Interesting...

Such a corporation, would need to have major influence in Amarr and the Republic as well, to cover interference from their intelligence agencies. They would have to have a very strong military with the appropriate specialized training. They would also have to have access to advanced cloning capabilities and heavy influence on the media. And of course, they would need to make a tidy profit off the tragedy.

What corporation fits that bill perfectly?

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."