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Citadel loot changes will have ramifications

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Zaillee
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2016-05-19 11:24:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Zaillee
I post this to voice a concern I have regarding the current changes that came to light with wormhole space. The change I speak of is that all loot is dropped from Citadels when killed in WH space.

Now I was to state this point very clearly. I want there to be full risk with wormholes. I feel when you enter a wormhole all of your assets are at risk.

But I fear this change will create a drive for evictions. As most know there are some detrimental factors to mass evictions in wormhole space. If every smaller corp is driven from wormhole space then targets for small gang warfare become a rarity. For most of us this exact aspect(small gang pvp) is what drives us to fly in W space. (To be honest even the largest Wormhole corps are not immune to an eviction, there just isn't a big enough reason to evict them.. until now maybe?)

Now I am in no way suggesting make assets safe, because that isn't conducive to our environment either. I would be honestly be happy if the mechanic was that upon the destruction of a citadel all assets are destroyed.

There are already some great reasons to evict people from W-Space. Don’t give some of Eve's largest fleets a reason to bounce from hole to hole clearing the entirety of wormhole space... because they will do it.


TLDR:
I suggest that all assets are just destroyed upon a citadels destruction in W-space to prevent the rest of Eve starting a pinata party.
Nerapa
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-05-19 13:00:21 UTC
Zaillee wrote:
I post this to voice a concern I have regarding the current changes that came to light with wormhole space. The change I speak of is that all loot is dropped from Citadels when killed in WH space.

Now I was to state this point very clearly. I want there to be full risk with wormholes. I feel when you enter a wormhole all of your assets are at risk.

But I fear this change will create a drive for evictions. As most know there are some detrimental factors to mass evictions in wormhole space. If every smaller corp is driven from wormhole space then targets for small gang warfare become a rarity. For most of us this exact aspect(small gang pvp) is what drives us to fly in W space. (To be honest even the largest Wormhole corps are not immune to an eviction, there just isn't a big enough reason to evict them.. until now maybe?)

Now I am in no way suggesting make assets safe, because that isn't conducive to our environment either. I would be honestly be happy if the mechanic was that upon the destruction of a citadel all assets are destroyed.

There are already some great reasons to evict people from W-Space. Don’t give some of Eve's largest fleets a reason to bounce from hole to hole clearing the entirety of wormhole space... because they will do it.


TLDR:
I suggest that all assets are just destroyed upon a citadels destruction in W-space to prevent the rest of Eve starting a pinata party.


Major corps like mine will only be tempted to evict for the juicy loot. Otherwise the only reason to evict is to replace the current residents and live in there which 90% of the time wont be the case.

Bad idea and I'm glad that everything drops. It gives incentive for people to defend and people to aggress.

If you are too small to defend. bat phone. We bigger high class groups love content and nothing quite flex's our epeens than a cry for help.

MY TLDR: You idea is bad, if you are too small. Cry for help. People will answer.

TDSIN C5/C5 Recruiting
Jessie McPewpew
U2EZ
#3 - 2016-05-19 13:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie McPewpew
Zaillee wrote:
I post this to voice a concern I have regarding the current changes that came to light with wormhole space. The change I speak of is that all loot is dropped from Citadels when killed in WH space.

Now I was to state this point very clearly. I want there to be full risk with wormholes. I feel when you enter a wormhole all of your assets are at risk.

But I fear this change will create a drive for evictions. As most know there are some detrimental factors to mass evictions in wormhole space. If every smaller corp is driven from wormhole space then targets for small gang warfare become a rarity. For most of us this exact aspect(small gang pvp) is what drives us to fly in W space. (To be honest even the largest Wormhole corps are not immune to an eviction, there just isn't a big enough reason to evict them.. until now maybe?)

Now I am in no way suggesting make assets safe, because that isn't conducive to our environment either. I would be honestly be happy if the mechanic was that upon the destruction of a citadel all assets are destroyed.

There are already some great reasons to evict people from W-Space. Don’t give some of Eve's largest fleets a reason to bounce from hole to hole clearing the entirety of wormhole space... because they will do it.


TLDR:
I suggest that all assets are just destroyed upon a citadels destruction in W-space to prevent the rest of Eve starting a pinata party.
Agreed. By simply giving nullbears the ability to keep their stuff safe, CCP has essentially nuked one of few reasons to kill a citadel which is to get someone's stuff. That very fact doesn't change regardless of whatever space you might be residing in.
It adds a massive layer of deterence that wormhole residers don't have. We don't want it, but if nullbears still get to keep their stuff safe then I'm all for this idea.
Sten Taxi
No trouble in the midst
B.E.A.R.S.
#4 - 2016-05-19 17:04:00 UTC
Zaillee wrote:
I post this to voice a concern I have regarding the current changes that came to light with wormhole space. The change I speak of is that all loot is dropped from Citadels when killed in WH space.

Now I was to state this point very clearly. I want there to be full risk with wormholes. I feel when you enter a wormhole all of your assets are at risk.

But I fear this change will create a drive for evictions. As most know there are some detrimental factors to mass evictions in wormhole space. If every smaller corp is driven from wormhole space then targets for small gang warfare become a rarity. For most of us this exact aspect(small gang pvp) is what drives us to fly in W space. (To be honest even the largest Wormhole corps are not immune to an eviction, there just isn't a big enough reason to evict them.. until now maybe?)

Now I am in no way suggesting make assets safe, because that isn't conducive to our environment either. I would be honestly be happy if the mechanic was that upon the destruction of a citadel all assets are destroyed.

There are already some great reasons to evict people from W-Space. Don’t give some of Eve's largest fleets a reason to bounce from hole to hole clearing the entirety of wormhole space... because they will do it.


TLDR:
I suggest that all assets are just destroyed upon a citadels destruction in W-space to prevent the rest of Eve starting a pinata party.


I share your concerns and in my opinions evictions should be something done for the sake of settling grudges or to conquer a system for yourself, not for the sake of profits.

I have heard ideas floating around of storing all assets inside station containers to force the attacker to grind millions of HP and make loot subject to loot fairy but i do not know if this is a viable strategy. If it was so that it worked, it just makes it an inconvinience for everybody involved, for defends to keep storing their stuff in containers and for attackers to grind millions of HP to ge the loot.
Hatshepsut IV
Un.Reasonable
#5 - 2016-05-19 18:00:37 UTC
Zaillee wrote:
I post this to voice nonsense I think applies to people who don't post on NPC corp alts..



The idiot people who live in wspace to do nothing but run sites and sit in their POS to wait out the scary pvpers will continue to do so in with citadels

The same people will also periodicly get their stuff pushed in when they blueblue the wrong people on the wrong day sometime.

Public Channel | Un.Welcome
Nadine Jones
Holes with Worms
#6 - 2016-05-19 21:11:32 UTC
There is no change. It's how it was before and will continue to be.

POSes have always dropped loot and now the structures that replace them do too.
If that would cause some sort of mass extinction of small wormhole corps that would have already happened.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-05-19 23:20:13 UTC
Nadine Jones wrote:
There is no change. It's how it was before and will continue to be.

POSes have always dropped loot and now the structures that replace them do too.
If that would cause some sort of mass extinction of small wormhole corps that would have already happened.

^thanks, i thought I was losing my mind, trying to figure out what the OP was on about...
turns out it's just the usual nothing, cool.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Sten Taxi
No trouble in the midst
B.E.A.R.S.
#8 - 2016-05-19 23:49:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sten Taxi
Jack Miton wrote:
Nadine Jones wrote:
There is no change. It's how it was before and will continue to be.

POSes have always dropped loot and now the structures that replace them do too.
If that would cause some sort of mass extinction of small wormhole corps that would have already happened.

^thanks, i thought I was losing my mind, trying to figure out what the OP was on about...
turns out it's just the usual nothing, cool.


POS modules like ship maintainance array and corporate hangar array are subject to loot fairy, citadel is not and drop 100% of the contents inside.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4h42qf/question_wh_citadel_asset_recovery/d2n832h
Zaillee
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2016-05-20 00:20:13 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Nadine Jones wrote:
There is no change. It's how it was before and will continue to be.

POSes have always dropped loot and now the structures that replace them do too.
If that would cause some sort of mass extinction of small wormhole corps that would have already happened.

^thanks, i thought I was losing my mind, trying to figure out what the OP was on about...
turns out it's just the usual nothing, cool.


The new system drops 100% where the old system was loot fairy. People are even suggesting and supporting the prevention of trashing items when your citadel is in reinforce. If it is the case it would prevent corps from self destructing or trashing their items to stop attackers getting loot. Not to mention the 100% of loot dropping could mean for a citadel being equal to an insaine amount of profit if evicting a well established corp.

Now I realize the big corps are very strong and you could effectively "Bat phone", but to think they could fend off all of null from popping a trillion isk loot pinata is laughable... Now you could argue to just keep your stuff in a POS. But POS's are likely to be phased out with the citadels leaving only the pinata option.

Sucks for the attackers but if that is or becomes a legit mechanic people will just evict all day for profit. Driving people from wormhole space for profit is not good for the area as a whole.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2016-05-20 01:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
You're REALLY underestimating how much people despise shooting structures.
Also, the idea of nullsec groups coming into WHs just to shoot towers all day for the loot drops is laughable since they could be spending that time like they normally do; logging in their WH farming alts are running sites to make a ton of isk that way.

Nullsec incursions into wspace have happened in the past and they always end the same way with wh residents kicking them back out to where they belong.
NS groups have no interest nor anything to gain from picking fights with whers.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Silver Wolf's
Skybreakers
Pan-Intergalatic Business Community
#11 - 2016-05-20 01:16:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Silver Wolf's
Nerapa wrote:
Zaillee wrote:
I post this to voice a concern I have regarding the current changes that came to light with wormhole space. The change I speak of is that all loot is dropped from Citadels when killed in WH space.

Now I was to state this point very clearly. I want there to be full risk with wormholes. I feel when you enter a wormhole all of your assets are at risk.

But I fear this change will create a drive for evictions. As most know there are some detrimental factors to mass evictions in wormhole space. If every smaller corp is driven from wormhole space then targets for small gang warfare become a rarity. For most of us this exact aspect(small gang pvp) is what drives us to fly in W space. (To be honest even the largest Wormhole corps are not immune to an eviction, there just isn't a big enough reason to evict them.. until now maybe?)

Now I am in no way suggesting make assets safe, because that isn't conducive to our environment either. I would be honestly be happy if the mechanic was that upon the destruction of a citadel all assets are destroyed.

There are already some great reasons to evict people from W-Space. Don’t give some of Eve's largest fleets a reason to bounce from hole to hole clearing the entirety of wormhole space... because they will do it.


TLDR:
I suggest that all assets are just destroyed upon a citadels destruction in W-space to prevent the rest of Eve starting a pinata party.


Major corps like mine will only be tempted to evict for the juicy loot. Otherwise the only reason to evict is to replace the current residents and live in there which 90% of the time wont be the case.

Bad idea and I'm glad that everything drops. It gives incentive for people to defend and people to aggress.

If you are too small to defend. bat phone. We bigger high class groups love content and nothing quite flex's our epeens than a cry for help.

MY TLDR: You idea is bad, if you are too small. Cry for help. People will answer.


hmm so let me get this correct you are claiming that:
Quote:
Bad idea and I'm glad that everything drops. It gives incentive for people to defend and people to aggress.
If you are too small to defend. bat phone. We bigger high class groups love content and nothing quite flex's our epeens than a cry for help.

hmm what will you do when a big nulsec alliance show up in your wormhole for the 10+ trillion isk pinata you have in your wormhole? I think this is the biggest issue. are you honestly claiming that your wormhole corp. (which is fairly well established) can hold off a determined nulsec alliance who wants all your items, so they can get a quick payout?

I am personal in favor of the citadels dropping no items in wormholes, this will still give people intensive to protect their citadels . Without insensitivity mass evictions of wormhole space, i could honestly use a few trillion isk atm on my other toons.
on reddit
Quote:

[–]CCP_NullarborCCP Games 31 points 19 days ago
Actually there is no loot fairy rules on personal and Corp hangars when the citadel explodes in wormhole space. They eject the FULL contents the same as if you were unanchoring the structure.


is a bit crazy in my op not even having a loot fiery in effect just 100% loot on both corp and personal hangers? \($)-($)/.

the biggest issue with having so many temping loot pinatas in wormhole space is it will make it to where people will not want to risk having anything in wormhole space. for many small to midsize corps will have zero reason to live in wormhole space... the net result will be people day-tripping once in a while for some quick isk from sites. (and the rest of space being a major fly over zone) in effect this will depopulate 95%+ of populated wormhole systems. not due to the risk of losing their items but due to the active hunting of any structure someone would dare to put up (regardless of their size)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4h42qf/question_wh_citadel_asset_recovery/
Pinkylein
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#12 - 2016-05-20 10:08:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinkylein
Zaillee wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Nadine Jones wrote:
There is no change. It's how it was before and will continue to be.

POSes have always dropped loot and now the structures that replace them do too.
If that would cause some sort of mass extinction of small wormhole corps that would have already happened.

^thanks, i thought I was losing my mind, trying to figure out what the OP was on about...
turns out it's just the usual nothing, cool.


The new system drops 100% where the old system was loot fairy. People are even suggesting and supporting the prevention of trashing items when your citadel is in reinforce. If it is the case it would prevent corps from self destructing or trashing their items to stop attackers getting loot. Not to mention the 100% of loot dropping could mean for a citadel being equal to an insaine amount of profit if evicting a well established corp.

Now I realize the big corps are very strong and you could effectively "Bat phone", but to think they could fend off all of null from popping a trillion isk loot pinata is laughable... Now you could argue to just keep your stuff in a POS. But POS's are likely to be phased out with the citadels leaving only the pinata option.

Sucks for the attackers but if that is or becomes a legit mechanic people will just evict all day for profit. Driving people from wormhole space for profit is not good for the area as a whole.



I don't know where you got that from, but if something drops, it usually drops based on current drop-rates. Your 100% won't happen ... i tried to find at least information about drop rates and for manufacturing and fitted stuff it is based on a percentage. Same as it was before with an SMA, CHA, PHA and all other arrays in a POS.

And besides, since the Citadel has a safety area around it and you get tethered the moment you undock, nobody can even stop you from just warping to a safe with all your assets. You probably won't have more stuff in your wormhole now, then before when you were living in a POS, only with the difference now that it was in a POS before and now it is in a station ... citadel.

And you even now got a big difference. Since a POS needed fuel to run, you could see when a wh is kinda abandoned by someone. Right now, the citadels do not need fuel to run in basic mode. So you cannot blow "offline"-POS's up anymore and find sma's or cha's you can take out in a Stealth-Bomber. So it is much harder for single explorers to find a jackpot or even impossible.

A corp could theorecally have been moved out of a wormhole LOOOOONG ago ... and you would not know it, eventually though by killboards.

AAAAND ... even worse. In a POS you could at least see that there was an SMA/CHA ... or 10 SMA's or 15 ... in citadel ... you could not even know if there is a single ship inside (ofc the sma could be empty), but it's now flipping a coin if there is something inside or not.

From that point ... there is almost no change at all regarding "bring your stuff into safety" or "maybe something nice drops when we blow it up".

Did anyone tried to ... selfdestruct in a citadel area? ... when bumping will be not possible anymore, i could almost imagine, that if someone undocks and is tethered, not lockable and cannot be bumped, he could easily self destruct and have an alt sitting next to it, also tethered and collect the drops ... so even the "i will selfdestruct everything in front of your eyes" might happen.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#13 - 2016-05-20 10:42:27 UTC
Pinkylein wrote:
Zaillee wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Nadine Jones wrote:
There is no change. It's how it was before and will continue to be.

POSes have always dropped loot and now the structures that replace them do too.
If that would cause some sort of mass extinction of small wormhole corps that would have already happened.

^thanks, i thought I was losing my mind, trying to figure out what the OP was on about...
turns out it's just the usual nothing, cool.


The new system drops 100% where the old system was loot fairy. People are even suggesting and supporting the prevention of trashing items when your citadel is in reinforce. If it is the case it would prevent corps from self destructing or trashing their items to stop attackers getting loot. Not to mention the 100% of loot dropping could mean for a citadel being equal to an insaine amount of profit if evicting a well established corp.

Now I realize the big corps are very strong and you could effectively "Bat phone", but to think they could fend off all of null from popping a trillion isk loot pinata is laughable... Now you could argue to just keep your stuff in a POS. But POS's are likely to be phased out with the citadels leaving only the pinata option.

Sucks for the attackers but if that is or becomes a legit mechanic people will just evict all day for profit. Driving people from wormhole space for profit is not good for the area as a whole.



I don't know where you got that from, but if something drops, it usually drops based on current drop-rates. Your 100% won't happen ... i tried to find at least information about drop rates and for manufacturing and fitted stuff it is based on a percentage. Same as it was before with an SMA, CHA, PHA and all other arrays in a POS.

And besides, since the Citadel has a safety area around it and you get tethered the moment you undock, nobody can even stop you from just warping to a safe with all your assets. You probably won't have more stuff in your wormhole now, then before when you were living in a POS, only with the difference now that it was in a POS before and now it is in a station ... citadel.

And you even now got a big difference. Since a POS needed fuel to run, you could see when a wh is kinda abandoned by someone. Right now, the citadels do not need fuel to run in basic mode. So you cannot blow "offline"-POS's up anymore and find sma's or cha's you can take out in a Stealth-Bomber. So it is much harder for single explorers to find a jackpot or even impossible.

A corp could theorecally have been moved out of a wormhole LOOOOONG ago ... and you would not know it, eventually though by killboards.

AAAAND ... even worse. In a POS you could at least see that there was an SMA/CHA ... or 10 SMA's or 15 ... in citadel ... you could not even know if there is a single ship inside (ofc the sma could be empty), but it's now flipping a coin if there is something inside or not.

From that point ... there is almost no change at all regarding "bring your stuff into safety" or "maybe something nice drops when we blow it up".

Did anyone tried to ... selfdestruct in a citadel area? ... when bumping will be not possible anymore, i could almost imagine, that if someone undocks and is tethered, not lockable and cannot be bumped, he could easily self destruct and have an alt sitting next to it, also tethered and collect the drops ... so even the "i will selfdestruct everything in front of your eyes" might happen.


This is the information you were looking for: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4h42qf/question_wh_citadel_asset_recovery/d2n7rfd

Wormholer for life.
Pinkylein
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#14 - 2016-05-20 11:28:12 UTC
Ok but still ... i don't see the point. Loot fairy rools on CHA/SMA/PHA and all other arrays in a POS were sometimes reasons enough to evict a POS. You still hope for the best drop. You still don't know whats inside ... so you are going in by hoping there is a lot to get.

What is the difference with a citadel? You still don't know whats inside. So even knowing 100% will get dropped. A POS with 4 marauders inside still give you probably more then a citadel with 4 epithals and 200M ISK full of PI.
Stormin
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2016-05-20 14:06:28 UTC
Pinkylein wrote:
Ok but still ... i don't see the point. Loot fairy rools on CHA/SMA/PHA and all other arrays in a POS were sometimes reasons enough to evict a POS. You still hope for the best drop. You still don't know whats inside ... so you are going in by hoping there is a lot to get.

What is the difference with a citadel? You still don't know whats inside. So even knowing 100% will get dropped. A POS with 4 marauders inside still give you probably more then a citadel with 4 epithals and 200M ISK full of PI.


The point is you dont hunt the citadel for some guy and his alts running a PI. You go after the well established, known to have a ton of iskies and ships docked up citadel.

For example, you're flying through WH space looking for something to shoot and you jump into a system with a citadel. You take a look at the corp and find they have 25 members. You could at least assume each member has around 1bil in assets. Fitted ships in addition to blue loot and salvage. Its very possibly they have even more in total as a corp but for this example lets say it tallys up to 25bil. Not only that but the citadel is going vulnerable in 3 days.

You keep an eye on the citadel for the next day, looks like they are somewhat active. Mostly small gang cruiser fleets and running there sites. You haven't seen more than 6 on at a time. You have two days left to prepare, let your null-sec alliance know you've found a potential 25 bil target that about 15 people should be able to pop no problem. One more day to let your corp/alliance prepare, you scan them in and there you have it. Each member if your fleet is making 1.6 bil for 30 minutes dps on a citadel + the added bonus of possible PVP against the residents. If they call for help you get an escalation, but since you're in a nullsec alliance you can always bring more numbers than the WH corps ever will be able to. You get a great bit of content and a guaranteed payout, literally 100% of whatever that corp has will be yours when you pop the citadel.

You might be thinking well 25bil isn't worth the time. The realisty is corps have much more than that in assets in their home system, and larger corps living in c5-6 with capitals now docked up will have even more value. If a Nullsec corp can have the chance at a guaranteed 500bil, 750bil, 1tril + drop why the hell wouldn't they take it?

The random loot drops from a POS get rid of the certainty, there isn't as much draw to spend the time scouting and invading a WH corps space when you could get nothing out of it. A citadel changes this, anyone who wants to blow it up knows 100% they get literally everything you have, thats the problem.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#16 - 2016-05-20 15:35:11 UTC
Stormin wrote:
Pinkylein wrote:
Ok but still ... i don't see the point. Loot fairy rools on CHA/SMA/PHA and all other arrays in a POS were sometimes reasons enough to evict a POS. You still hope for the best drop. You still don't know whats inside ... so you are going in by hoping there is a lot to get.

What is the difference with a citadel? You still don't know whats inside. So even knowing 100% will get dropped. A POS with 4 marauders inside still give you probably more then a citadel with 4 epithals and 200M ISK full of PI.


The point is you dont hunt the citadel for some guy and his alts running a PI. You go after the well established, known to have a ton of iskies and ships docked up citadel.

For example, you're flying through WH space looking for something to shoot and you jump into a system with a citadel. You take a look at the corp and find they have 25 members. You could at least assume each member has around 1bil in assets. Fitted ships in addition to blue loot and salvage. Its very possibly they have even more in total as a corp but for this example lets say it tallys up to 25bil. Not only that but the citadel is going vulnerable in 3 days.

You keep an eye on the citadel for the next day, looks like they are somewhat active. Mostly small gang cruiser fleets and running there sites. You haven't seen more than 6 on at a time. You have two days left to prepare, let your null-sec alliance know you've found a potential 25 bil target that about 15 people should be able to pop no problem. One more day to let your corp/alliance prepare, you scan them in and there you have it. Each member if your fleet is making 1.6 bil for 30 minutes dps on a citadel + the added bonus of possible PVP against the residents. If they call for help you get an escalation, but since you're in a nullsec alliance you can always bring more numbers than the WH corps ever will be able to. You get a great bit of content and a guaranteed payout, literally 100% of whatever that corp has will be yours when you pop the citadel.

You might be thinking well 25bil isn't worth the time. The realisty is corps have much more than that in assets in their home system, and larger corps living in c5-6 with capitals now docked up will have even more value. If a Nullsec corp can have the chance at a guaranteed 500bil, 750bil, 1tril + drop why the hell wouldn't they take it?

The random loot drops from a POS get rid of the certainty, there isn't as much draw to spend the time scouting and invading a WH corps space when you could get nothing out of it. A citadel changes this, anyone who wants to blow it up knows 100% they get literally everything you have, thats the problem.


A) There is nothing stopping you from doing the same with POS. During the 5+ years I've lived in wormholes, I've yet to see a nullsec entity coming to kill anything for loot (sleepers are the exception).

B) It takes 48 hours to kill a citadel+ the time it takes to shoot through the HP at each stage. That is actually longer than a large POS.


I don't see any nullsec-corp coming to kill citadels in w-space. And if (a very big if) that happens, just call for help. Wormholers love to teach nullseccers how we do things. I don't see a problem here

Wormholer for life.
Pinkylein
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#17 - 2016-05-20 17:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinkylein
Wander Prian wrote:
Stormin wrote:
Pinkylein wrote:
Ok but still ... i don't see the point. Loot fairy rools on CHA/SMA/PHA and all other arrays in a POS were sometimes reasons enough to evict a POS. You still hope for the best drop. You still don't know whats inside ... so you are going in by hoping there is a lot to get.

What is the difference with a citadel? You still don't know whats inside. So even knowing 100% will get dropped. A POS with 4 marauders inside still give you probably more then a citadel with 4 epithals and 200M ISK full of PI.


The point is you dont hunt the citadel for some guy and his alts running a PI. You go after the well established, known to have a ton of iskies and ships docked up citadel.

For example, you're flying through WH space looking for something to shoot and you jump into a system with a citadel. You take a look at the corp and find they have 25 members. You could at least assume each member has around 1bil in assets. Fitted ships in addition to blue loot and salvage. Its very possibly they have even more in total as a corp but for this example lets say it tallys up to 25bil. Not only that but the citadel is going vulnerable in 3 days.

You keep an eye on the citadel for the next day, looks like they are somewhat active. Mostly small gang cruiser fleets and running there sites. You haven't seen more than 6 on at a time. You have two days left to prepare, let your null-sec alliance know you've found a potential 25 bil target that about 15 people should be able to pop no problem. One more day to let your corp/alliance prepare, you scan them in and there you have it. Each member if your fleet is making 1.6 bil for 30 minutes dps on a citadel + the added bonus of possible PVP against the residents. If they call for help you get an escalation, but since you're in a nullsec alliance you can always bring more numbers than the WH corps ever will be able to. You get a great bit of content and a guaranteed payout, literally 100% of whatever that corp has will be yours when you pop the citadel.

You might be thinking well 25bil isn't worth the time. The realisty is corps have much more than that in assets in their home system, and larger corps living in c5-6 with capitals now docked up will have even more value. If a Nullsec corp can have the chance at a guaranteed 500bil, 750bil, 1tril + drop why the hell wouldn't they take it?

The random loot drops from a POS get rid of the certainty, there isn't as much draw to spend the time scouting and invading a WH corps space when you could get nothing out of it. A citadel changes this, anyone who wants to blow it up knows 100% they get literally everything you have, thats the problem.


A) There is nothing stopping you from doing the same with POS. During the 5+ years I've lived in wormholes, I've yet to see a nullsec entity coming to kill anything for loot (sleepers are the exception).

B) It takes 48 hours to kill a citadel+ the time it takes to shoot through the HP at each stage. That is actually longer than a large POS.


I don't see any nullsec-corp coming to kill citadels in w-space. And if (a very big if) that happens, just call for help. Wormholers love to teach nullseccers how we do things. I don't see a problem here



Agreed ... thats what i mean. You have the same stuff in wormhole space you had before. Just not in a POS, but in a citadel. So the corp that is described with 25B in assets, will have the same laying around. Means when the chances about 50/50 to maybe get 12.5B in a POS after you took it down is more or less comparable to the 25B now.

BUT now comes the difference. In your station (citadel) you now can strip stuff down to the bottom. You can even take t3 subsystems out, repackage them ... things you could not do. And in a even more efficient way. So your 25B might go down pretty fast towards 10 at max, as everything else could be safely flown out, since tethered and warpable ship can get away pretty easy in a good moment with some undocking-spots.

So everything you say is true, just in the way it was before for a POS - 50% loot (but complete t3 with subsystems). AND you could bubble up a POS to the mid, so an orca/freighter/cap could not flee at all anymore. For citadels once bumping is not possible anymore. You can leave whenever you want with a full mod orca into a safe with a cloak. I mean get a bowhead into it or some freighter or whatever and you might clean your complete citadel with it. What you get then? The salvage of the citadel ... which is calculated by loot fairy will.

And if you wanna get alot of stuff? Get into HK wh ... they have a fortizar there ... probably filled with more ISK then you will make in your entire eve carrier. You want loot? Go and take them down ... bring several thousand nullsec ppl ... if that might be enough to even scratch them.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#18 - 2016-05-20 18:10:47 UTC
Actually since yesterday, they have a Keepstar.

Wormholer for life.
Pinkylein
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#19 - 2016-05-20 19:07:53 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Actually since yesterday, they have a Keepstar.


It's what i meant .... :D
Jessie McPewpew
U2EZ
#20 - 2016-05-20 22:41:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie McPewpew
You can log off in a POS with carriers holding ships unlike in a citadel and the total shooting time is reduced drastically unlike in POS especially for mediums, even though it takes 3 days. Hence, there's less of a deterrence to blow a citadel up compared to a POS when comparing real-world factors.
Citadels are made to be taken down easily right from the ground up unlike a POS. You'll need to be rocking a keepstar or fortizar before citadels start to make any sense from a deterrence perspective.
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