EVE General Discussion

The whole point of a wardec for the wardeccers may be to fight.

However as we go about our normal play, the process of being wardecced is inevitable but not predictable.

Wardecs occur when we are already doing other things and concentrating on achieving other goals.

So we don't suddenly stop what we are doing, just because someone we don't know or have any issue with paid 50 million to be able to legally fight in highsec.

We have nothing against them, no specific reason to fight them. So why change what we are doing?

It's not like they have anything against us either. They are just looking for targets so they wardec lots of Corps/Alliances simultaneously. That's perfectly fine too, but it isn't going to change our goals.

So the idea that wardecs are just about fighting is a bit narrow.

Your idea that they should be about actual fights and creating meaningful content, is just an expression of the view that wars should conform to what you think they should be.

You want to remove freedom and choice from everyone and dictate what a war is supposed to involve.

Meaningful content can mean very different things on both sides of a wardec and wardecs can be about many more things than simply fighting.

That's an awesome thing to force on an industrial Corp that has no interest in fighting for example, but who through actively thinking about how they can play, is totally able to manage a wardec differently (which could itself be a meaningful outcome to them).

In our case, we just keep playing the way we play and they gain nothing from their 50 million investment. That's a good outcome. We continue in what we believe is meaningful play and deny the wardeccers what they want, just the same way that they are hoping to deny us what we want.

That's the way it should be. Free choice for everyone how to deal with it, not play dictated by Dracvlad's opinion of a wardec (or anyone else's).

They are the ones paying 1.2 Billion+ each week.

No skin off anyone else's nose, so if they can afford that, why is it wrong?

So in context their whine of people dropping corp and going into NPC corps is a whine and it is fine that people can do that then, so can I expect you to defend that right next. Because that stops them from imposing their play on people who do not want to fight.

I kept in my alliance all through the war dec, avoided hubs and pipes, operated with a certain approach so I could not get caught etc., but as I said it impacted me in preventing me from doing a few things I wanted to do, I went off and did some others like jump cloning to Stain to play with me carrier a bit to try out the new fighters.

As an old player with a ton of assets and a hard to kill attitude this war dec was annoying but nothing more than that, to kill me they would have to hunt me and they had too many targets to bother doing that. It is hardly a major issue for me, but it is for players who don't have my attitude and who don'y have my SP level and experience, all I did was operate in hisec how I operate in 0.0.

The issue is however is if people want people to develop meaningful corps and alliances in hisec to fight over key infastructure you can forget it as it is just not going to happen. It it will continue as it is now with one man corps and people in NPC corps and others blanket war deccing for people to farm. That is just poor content, and that is not just my opinion, and the opinion of the preople who are preyed upon but the opinion of many of the war dec entities too.

I hope CCP has a better vison then you have, because I was hoping that hisec could develop into a better area for people to play into and I feel that having war decs restricted to corps that have stuff in space or entities that hold sov would be a good base to start from as it would enable noob corps to grow and develop before taking that plunge, though I do sort of agree with the strength through adversity, I don't think seal baby clubbing develops character of the seal...

If an alliance is paying 1.2bil for 240 active wars is what is bullshit. That's closer to 12bil a week, and that just 50mill per corp. Not counting the large alliances like Brave, Hard Knocks, MOA and the such.


If you ran 240 active decs in a week your looking closer to 18 to 20 bill a week. Not 1.2 bill.

Yes but they often complain about people fleeing war decs that way, and a good point you make about them doing it because the character who bumped my toon off Jita station earlier in the war dec was one they had dropped out of corp. Its the way of Eve forums that people will complain about something they do themselves to get an advantage.

As for me wanting it, I think many people want better play in hisec, there are many who just want to push people into Null but that is not really casual play, most casual players end up in hisec because they don't have to do CTA's and they want to play in a restful way. That is not your sandbox and in truth not totally mine as I like the excitement of ratting in 0.0, but I understand them.

My POV is that you only have an interest to fight if you have an objective or a vital interest at stake, take the last war dec I am seeing the last few hours out on, I had no interest in fighting them, I have nothing in space zilch, I looked at a couple of their pipe campers near me, but they were in Svipuls which are difficult to catch, so uninteresting gameplay for me, I had too many silly fights with Cynabels in 0.0 to find that fun. I had done a lot of work following them around and found some vulnerable points to play with, but my objective was to make it so they would find me a pain to war dec, something I did easily with Deadly Fingertips by obstructing them on the Jita 4-4 undock. At the end of the day they war decced my alliance for two weeks that cost them ISK which they can easily afford, I guess that will have to do, Eve at its finest...

For example I tried suggesting in the AG channel that people form a loose coalition to support each other, but people can't be bothered, so I guess it stays like this, I have experience in doing something like this in 0.0, but I think hisec is too far gone to be honest.

So what? Their complaints are no better than people who come to complain about how it's unfair that wardecs can be made against them.

They are all pointless complaints and easily ignored.


Yes, a lot of people take a very one sided view of things, even in the glorious name of 'balance'.

They can all be ignored and dismissed, because there is no legitimate way someone can complain about another person using a mechanic, while at the same time using it themselves to gain advantage.

So ignore the complaints. There is no way CCP should restrict the options of defenders in how they deal with a wardec, while ever wardecs are an arbitrary thing that can be declared at anytime and against anyone.

Doing so would shift the balance in favour of the wardeccers and do nothing but reduce the play options of the defenders.

At the same time, CCP shouldn't restrict the options of wardeccers just because a bunch of people come to the forum and complain, or make 'think of the children' arguments, or whatever. The game isn't about tossing people a flotation device if they can't cope. Sink or swim.


And yet, there are very different views on what is 'better'.

Better to a wardeccer isn't necessarily better to an industrialist.

Better to almost anyone isn't necessarily better to Ishtanchuk and vice versa.

There is no one idea of better.

However, when most people come to the forum and complain, claiming they want to make it better, what they argue for is placing more restrictions on another person, while placing no restrictions on themselves or if anything, only giving themselves more options.

That's the BS part that is easy to see through.


It doesn't have to stay like that though.

If CCP finally get around to revisiting their concept of 'Social Corp' and just provide tools so that players can have some social tools common to a group they are a member of, with a badge that help build some attachment, a corp-like chat channel, easy to use mailing list, even full blown an ingame webpage (that's not too likely though) and calendar; that would go a long way to achieving exactly what you wanted to do.

That would be a step in the right direction, without placing limits on any one group in how they can play the game. Give everyone the ability to join different social groups, even if they are in an NPC Corp and don't make those social groups wardeccable. Also don't give them the ability to have an office, share resources or build any structures. If you want those things, then join a Corporation where wardecs are part of the game.

The biggest issue is not with the mechanics. It starts with the CEOs that are weak and incapable of properly dealing with a wardec. They perpetuate the hopelessness of the current situation, when it really isn't hopeless at all. The only thing hopeless is them. Social Corps might also give many of them an alternative that still strokes their ego, while not exposing them to issues that they pass on to their members because they don't really have the skills to be an effective CEO.

If you have gone through C&P and General Discussion over the years that I have and you will see lots of war dec mercs calling for the ability to leave a corp be nerfed. It makes me sniff with indignation every time, but here is the rub, it comes back to a balance question, what do you change to improve it so they are happy and what do you do to make the prey happier and make the game more dynamic. Everyone agrees that as it is now is not great. I am happy to see that you see the balance of people being able to walk out of a war dec based on them being so arbitrary.

You have accused me of wanting to change it just for the industrialists and called bullshit on me, because I have suggested restricting war decs, however I have noted a couple of people from war dec corps who demand that the ability to drop corps be removed. Previously we had a nerf to the defender in terms of the war dec cost not doubling every week so resulting in some corps and alliances having perpetural war decs for reasons. In a way I agree with that because there should be such things as continuous war with people you don't like, but continuous war with people who are simply targets of opportunity is meh.

Change often happens when you make small changes that result in changes of behaviour, I am more focussed on what hisec has become, one men corps or player in NPC corps with a few bigger entities that die when they get war dec after war dec, no one really gets a chance to develop something that can make the next step because they are strangled by blanket war decs. However the removal of watch listing may result in entities growing in far off areas of Eve away from the main hubs and pipes, I hope so.

Your and Herzog's idea may well work and I would support that, in effect what you are suggesting in actual affect is little different to what I was suggesting, only that I have to lose a corp hanger in stations, that will certainly annoy corp thieves, I can see the coming whine storm.

You say CEO's that are weak, maybe, when I got the first war dec from Marmite I wanted to go kill them, it was my FC and the other players that did not want to do it, I pushed them to do a fleet only for the Marmite player we encountered to run away. For them that game play was not worth it, as we got more war decs we decided to head to Stain and start shooting stuff there. Yeah I could not get them to go after the war deccers, neither could I change their attitude in what ship to use to give them more chance to catch them, or bothering with log off traps and the like. In truth I cannot find anyone who really wants to do this in hisec, its not just the hisec CEO's its also the attitude of the players, especially the vets. Getting them to fight over something that they value is key to this.

So for me the only way to change things was to create a conflict point which forces fights so I will keep hoping that CCP set up the intel structures that can be attacked and if I get war decced when they are implemented that is what I will be doing because it has value and has a way to get back at them and forcing a fight not on their terms... and in effect I can only see this working if people can lead by example.

So lets see what happens, but one thing is certain, I hope that CCP hurries up with the intel structures that give some watch list functionality because the current situation of blanket war decs for pipe and hub camping is so damn lame for everyone.

Shae,

Well I genuinely want a more interesting hisec, if you call bullshit on that, that is fine, my perception which may be wrong, is that hisec has been over fished and that most hisec players no longer bother to try to create something bigger and better. I hope that the watch list change will enable somethings to develop away from the hubs and pipes, and perhaps the war dec corps will die from the boredom of shooting noob ships and pods along those pipes.

I wanted to restrict the war decs to entities that have something in space or hold sov, yes it is a restriction to their play, because I want to help along those bigger hisec entities to develop, but your and Herzog's suggestion of a social corp will also do that. I certainly could go with that suggestion, but that is a restriction isn't it?

CEO's can only work with what they have got as members and their own abilities and what they have developed with others, if the material that they have to work with is fixed in their ways that is just as much a problem as the CEO being weak.

I hope CCP listens in terms of the observatory arrays in hisec, because certain merc corps that hunted have an issue. But I am not even sure that anyone from CCP even reads the General Discussion forum to be honest. But bluntly put, the removal of watch lists had a major negative impact on people in WH's, people subject to AFK cloaky camping and people who hunted, the WH's have winged a bit, those who are cloaky camped have just accepted it and the mercs are quite talkative about it.

I used to have a watch list of all the known BLOP's pilots in the area I operate in, because I often got blanket cloaky camped, it is a massive hit, I have just accepted it because it has improved things in so many areas, now people can do capital drops and the like and there is fog of war on this which makes capital escalations more likely in an uncontrolled fashion, its great for the game.

Those Obsevatory arrays will be a point of weakness, something to defend and to attack, it may not seem much, but it would change the face of conflict in hisec in my opinion.

In a nutshell leave it as it is now and have those observatory arrays work for a constellation, with ones that can block it too, will get interesting as hell, or at least I hope so.

Are your alts in Marmite bro?

How about addressing them and the dozens of other corps with 300+ active wardecs that just sit off stations in highsec? The 'leet' pvpers who don't dare spend half a second in low, much less nullsec to find a real fight. just wardeccing indy/freight corps for easy kills.

If you don't see a need for a limit then you have done about 10% of the 'research' needed.

a limit of 50 wardecs would be considered a massive nerf compared to groups like Marmite. And that is way too many.

Wardecs have no purpose other than a license to be a dck. They should have real purpose and real meaning otherwise just remove them and take CONCORD away.

This Orwellian level of self-blindness when, if forcing infrastructure in space, this would be taken as "forcing players (wardeccers) to do something they don't want into order to do something else" and how unfair/nerf/whatever that would be.

When wardeccers, the people who declare war on those who are not skilled, ready, or motivated to fight, go that route, it's an illustration of the human tendency to rationalize instead of being rational. The sort of double standard that destroys everything (in game and out). Some situations have double standard built into it, like nature, but if we realize it and are forced to accept it that fine. But the sort of person who is either totally blind to it is a kind of liability in all aspects of life, and those who can rationalize it to the point of justification are equally dangerous.

I'm starting to wonder if you have been arguing with an alt of one of the high priests of the Church of HTFU. Forget it. You can't get through to these people, nobody can, in game and out.