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Why does caldari militia fail? Your viewsplease

Author
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#161 - 2011-12-28 17:43:15 UTC
Princess Nexxala wrote:
Oh my...

*heads back to the MMO with light sabers and huge boobs



Well hell. I didn't know about the big boobs!!! Time to play TOR!

On topic-ish, wow. Imagine how rich Damar would be if LP was handed out for plexing. Hell, I'd have a small fortune myself. Also, would that actually make for more PVP or just change the current lvl 4 missioners to non-PVP plexers speed tanking to cap a plex and GTFOing if an enemy comes in? Hell, I dunno if I would PVP plex anymore if I knew I could do it in some backwater system.

If you gave LP in accordance to the size of plex, I would imagine that a lvl 4 FW mission would equate to an unrestricted large in my opinion. It would keep those non-PVPers around a bit longer though....... and give us a chance to catch em on a gate or something if we're set up for it..... Hmmmm.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

Draco Rosso
State War Academy
Caldari State
#162 - 2011-12-28 17:45:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Draco Rosso
Stalking Mantis wrote:
It is people like him. People like Dracco that are the negative poisen infesting Caldari FW. You see Dracco has been around when I first joined FW so by default you would think he would be a senior Caldari leader by now. What these types do in these forums is ten times worse in faction war chats.

Amazing! First of if you’re going to bash me at least spell my name right. I’m not going to take your misguided attempt at slander personally because it doesn’t describe me. Especially since anyone could read my older post and see that I don’t carry a negative opinion of Caldari Militia. I’m a proud member of Caldari Milita always have and always will. I never liked tooting my own horn in public, but since I have been called out I’m have to oblige for my space honor. I have quietly gone about my business in my time with Caldari Militia. I stepped up and lead PVP fleets when no one else would do it. Sure, I’m not the most dynamic and cool FC in the world, but I earned my battle scars thought grit and determination. From time to time I have been known to catch the war targets off guard like using a wormhole to warp in fleet on top of the war targets on the Kedama gate in Tama. I led plex fleets during USTZ when the 22nd and allies were in the Verge Vender/Placid Campaign. I even worked with Damar (gasp) during the first takeover of Heydieles. The only way we made progress was because Damar disappeared for a few hours. It was basically Kruger81, few wingman and myself fighting through the night. To the PERVS credit they did come in finished the job when I had to go to work. I’m sure chatgris remembers the epic marathon of battles that was. I supported upcoming and established Fleet Commanders with scouting services. I helped set up unified coms before I took a break from the game. Even late last week I was helping Gost and the EU timezone guys counter attack in Enaluri. We even managed to put the system in vulnerable state after a week of fighting. We couldn’t hold the system because of lack of numbers, but it was good effort none the less. To have people who hardly know me or fly with me incorrectly bash me is bewildering to say the least. I left the game in protest in January 2011 because I didn’t like CCP lack of direction in Faction Warfare. I only come back to the game because of plexes changes and promise of more changes in 2012.

Do I have a problem with Damar style of play. Damn straight I do. I don’t care how good you are if you treat others players badly you’re not worth my time. I understand when people mess up they need guidance and if they refuse your guidance that’s fine they will either learn or leave FW. Nature will take its course. If you enjoy having someone belittle you and treating you like garbage then that’s your problem seek help. I stand my previous comments about Damar. I been consistently critical of Damar over years, this isn’t news. Damar instead of spewing poison on public channels about how you were victimized by the Caldari Militia in the past. Why don’t you step up? You keep talking about how loyal you are to state but you’re fighting for the amarr. Too me it looks like you were driven away by your lack of current results in Caldari FW faction warfare space. In fact all those that process that you care about Caldari FW the fight is in Enaluri, where are you?
DNLeviathan
Blue Canary
Watch This
#163 - 2011-12-28 18:54:03 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
DNLeviathan wrote:
Super Chair wrote:
"o/ im new to militia how do i get in fleet?" I asked him if he had a gag reflex (joking around) and the rest of the militia immediatly started to tell him that he should join gallente and that we suck, etc etc. Probably lost some potential new blood there, but this happens on a daily basis, and you wonder why caldari's numbers keep shrinking and gallentes grow Roll. Everyone needs to carry a better attitude, even if theirs is normally pretty good.

IIRC i brought those new bloods into HP- just for us to be told we were a bunch of spies, ignored, rejected from fleets (unless i was actually there to vouch them in) while im personally told to drop this guy from corp or that guy from corp just because they were new to the game or new to fw.


DNLeviathan wrote:


its not that they dont have any strong leaders, they have several. the majority populace just wont accept singular leadership. they generally wont accept advice either.



Caldari needs someone who is strong leader Blink

with the wording and the winking, want me to come back and lead you all to glory?
Ralnik
Mutineers
#164 - 2011-12-28 18:58:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralnik
Chav Queen wrote:
Why even have FW missions? I dont see what part of the war they play. Why not scrap the missions and award LP for capturing and defending plexes instead?


Prior to FW missions most players flew pretty crappy stuff, it's one of the reasons everyone laughed at FW gangs because for the most part they were pretty incompetent in ship types do to the contentious loss of ISK by most players. Added to this it meant the average player would need to leave low sec to go grind ISK then come back later. (kinda silly to think a person fighting for a war effort for a state wouldn't get paid and had to keep a job else where)

FW missions added the much needed paycheck to recoup the losses and allows players to always stay near the main battlefield if they choose. It also allowed the average players to fly more expensive ships with a means to replace them.

Farmers on the other hand pretty much ruin the idea behind the concept, but then again maybe the prices are down enough to keep the FoTM farmer away as it's now more profitable to do incursions.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#165 - 2011-12-28 19:06:27 UTC
Draco Rosso wrote:
lot of text


I can understand why Damar is in amarr front fightning. It has no use to take systems in Caldari/gallente area because there is no one to shoot bunkers, i think Damar has stated that a couple times.

Also Damar is not a guy who could lead whole militia to Victory, Damar likes small fleets with competent people. Damar is guy who you can contact to get help on plexing front, if you promise to shoot bunkers and you show that you can stand behind your words, i am sure Damar will come back to Caldari/Gallente area and he will take all systems if needed.

Why Damar is "whining" in militia is that most of the militia is not interest to do such long term achievement that is needed for occupancy war.

Damar is not really FC Caldari militia needs, but Damar has skills to be plexing coordinator, he can figure out situation in several systems and coordinate plexing effort on scale of whole FW area. He also know plex fighting tactics so if Damar ask pvp help for some plex i think he has good vision how fight can be win even with smaller numbers.

All support Damar needs is competent pvp people who are willing to see effort on plexing front where is no other rewards than possible pvp and some serious force who can take out bunkers (usually that has been random militia fleet).

It is not about what one man does, it is about what whole militia does, at least majority of it.
Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
#166 - 2011-12-28 19:07:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Damar Rocarion
Draco Rosso wrote:
To me it looks like you were driven away by your lack of current results in Caldari FW faction warfare space. In fact all those that process that you care about Caldari FW the fight is in Enaluri, where are you?


So after lots of time of people saying "We dont want to fight in plexes, go f..k yourself carebear PVE n00b", they would now expect me to return? To an enviroment where back-up is available after filling proper form, posting three copies of it to right government official and after people have ventured into Jita to buy proper ships because having more than 1 pvp ship ready at any time is frowned upon?

No thank you. I quite like it in my home-in-exile since I have people here who actually want to pvp, are on comms, can reship to proper sized ships in the two minutes (which is maximum it should take no matter how inexperienced you are) and understand how to fight.

If I am such a divisive figure, then you should be happy. You can now organise rest of the people into a proper fighting force without my venemous influence. Or perhaps some of the Caldari should take up my offer and come join my gangs here. They might even learn something.

Edit: And yes, there is not enough firepower in Caldari militia to shoot a bunker down. This is not badmouthing or anything. It's pure mathematical fact. Unless you can get mission whores to bring their bombers to bunker, which they wont. If you cannot get enough numbers for your "home system", then how can you expect to get it in any other system?
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#167 - 2011-12-28 19:09:27 UTC
Ralnik wrote:
Chav Queen wrote:
Why even have FW missions? I dont see what part of the war they play. Why not scrap the missions and award LP for capturing and defending plexes instead?


Farmers on the other hand pretty much ruin the idea behind the concept, but then again maybe the prices are down enough to keep the FoTM farmer away as it's now more profitable to do incursions.


IMO, this is exactly why removing FW missions and giving LP for plexes is a good idea. The problem with missions is that there is no way to fail the farmers mission short of camping the mission for 12 hours (with the exception of one mission).

If plexes were the only way to gain LP, when an opposing militia member came and chased out the farmer, the farmer wouldn't be able to just wait for the militia member to get bored since the militia member would have incentive to stay and finish the plex getting LP in the process.

Decisions would need to be made in terms of how much LP to pay esp when there are multiple people in the mission, but it would make the farmers life more difficult, and focus more attention on plexes instead of missions. It would allow pvpers to undue farmers work if they only used pve fits.

Yes, the farmer could still find a backwater system: However, people who love to chase these farmers around (like X G) would have a much easier time doing it, since the farmer would have to sit in the plex for a certain amount of time, and the farmer would run the risk of getting his work undone by an opposing militia member if he had to run from a pvp engagement.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#168 - 2011-12-28 19:19:59 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Ralnik wrote:
Chav Queen wrote:
Why even have FW missions? I dont see what part of the war they play. Why not scrap the missions and award LP for capturing and defending plexes instead?


Farmers on the other hand pretty much ruin the idea behind the concept, but then again maybe the prices are down enough to keep the FoTM farmer away as it's now more profitable to do incursions.


IMO, this is exactly why removing FW missions and giving LP for plexes is a good idea. The problem with missions is that there is no way to fail the farmers mission short of camping the mission for 12 hours (with the exception of one mission).

If plexes were the only way to gain LP, when an opposing militia member came and chased out the farmer, the farmer wouldn't be able to just wait for the militia member to get bored since the militia member would have incentive to stay and finish the plex getting LP in the process.

Decisions would need to be made in terms of how much LP to pay esp when there are multiple people in the mission, but it would make the farmers life more difficult, and focus more attention on plexes instead of missions. It would allow pvpers to undue farmers work if they only used pve fits.

Yes, the farmer could still find a backwater system: However, people who love to chase these farmers around (like X G) would have a much easier time doing it, since the farmer would have to sit in the plex for a certain amount of time, and the farmer would run the risk of getting his work undone by an opposing militia member if he had to run from a pvp engagement.


Sounds like a plan, but now think how much PERVS would have earned on their journey to take all systems. And how much would have gallente made profit out of it?

Fact is that system you propose does not work, it will give more isk for those who really do not need it and less isk for those who are already losing.

I am sure that if you promise lot of isk from plexing someone will gather a competent people to farm all isk out of those and leave others to have left overs.

All you can do about it is to fund more those farmers by giving t2 loot from your ship.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#169 - 2011-12-28 19:32:33 UTC
Hrett wrote:
This is a serious question - Im not trolling.

Is there really that much bad-mouthing and ****-talking in Cal-Mil channels?

Its not all roses and reach-arounds in Gal-Mil, but its not an unpleasant place to be. I can say we go days if not weeks between any major outbursts - at least in my timezone.

I certainly dont claim to know what is wrong with caldari (if anything) but from reading this thread, the differences are pretty apparant... We Frogs do kinda controlled chaos. FC (and it can be FC by committe) is usually whoever spotted the sqid first and/or the dude who decides to start talking first. Its often a different person or persons for every engagement. Our 'not a fleet' fleet consists of 6-15 -ish people off doing whatever they want. Someone will spot a squid, and you will have 11 hungry voices of KM whores (myself included) asking where to go and what to bring. They arent told to go, or even asked to go. People just go on their own. Real fleets happen too, but they are far rarer and still have an air of informality about them...

Perhaps it not that Squids need more 'discipline' - perhaps its that they need a bit less.


I'd say a lot gets exaggerated on the forums as to how bad the chat is, but there is obvious trolls with-in Caldari Militia as there are in any militia chat. I think we just tend to get a bigger number of them. (hell we even had Genos Occidere for a week til they go bored, I think they even trumped the Gal spy trolls)
Chav Queen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#170 - 2011-12-28 19:36:38 UTC
Well the LP awarded should be the size of the plex with a mutliplier thrown in for how contested the system is. That way people have a choice plex in high risk highly contested systems for biggest return or plex a backwater system for a lower but less risky return
Either way your helping the war effort rather than just yourself.

Sorry if its a bit off topic but the mud slinging was getting boring anyway P.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#171 - 2011-12-28 19:38:09 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Hrett wrote:
This is a serious question - Im not trolling.

Is there really that much bad-mouthing and ****-talking in Cal-Mil channels?

Its not all roses and reach-arounds in Gal-Mil, but its not an unpleasant place to be. I can say we go days if not weeks between any major outbursts - at least in my timezone.

I certainly dont claim to know what is wrong with caldari (if anything) but from reading this thread, the differences are pretty apparant... We Frogs do kinda controlled chaos. FC (and it can be FC by committe) is usually whoever spotted the sqid first and/or the dude who decides to start talking first. Its often a different person or persons for every engagement. Our 'not a fleet' fleet consists of 6-15 -ish people off doing whatever they want. Someone will spot a squid, and you will have 11 hungry voices of KM whores (myself included) asking where to go and what to bring. They arent told to go, or even asked to go. People just go on their own. Real fleets happen too, but they are far rarer and still have an air of informality about them...

Perhaps it not that Squids need more 'discipline' - perhaps its that they need a bit less.


I'd say a lot gets exaggerated on the forums as to how bad the chat is, but there is obvious trolls with-in Caldari Militia as there are in any militia chat. I think we just tend to get a bigger number of them. (hell we even had Genos Occidere for a week til they go bored, I think they even trumped the Gal spy trolls)


I have to admit i have couple alt in every militia trolling militia occasionally Oops
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#172 - 2011-12-28 19:39:25 UTC
Chav Queen wrote:
Well the LP awarded should be the size of the plex with a mutliplier thrown in for how contested the system is. That way people have a choice plex in high risk highly contested systems for biggest return or plex a backwater system for a lower but less risky return
Either way your helping the war effort rather than just yourself.

Sorry if its a bit off topic but the mud slinging was getting boring anyway P.


There is no risk at plexing really.
Chav Queen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#173 - 2011-12-28 19:52:36 UTC
More risk than doing missions.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#174 - 2011-12-28 19:54:57 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
DNLeviathan wrote:
Super Chair wrote:
"o/ im new to militia how do i get in fleet?" I asked him if he had a gag reflex (joking around) and the rest of the militia immediatly started to tell him that he should join gallente and that we suck, etc etc. Probably lost some potential new blood there, but this happens on a daily basis, and you wonder why caldari's numbers keep shrinking and gallentes grow Roll. Everyone needs to carry a better attitude, even if theirs is normally pretty good.

IIRC i brought those new bloods into HP- just for us to be told we were a bunch of spies, ignored, rejected from fleets (unless i was actually there to vouch them in) while im personally told to drop this guy from corp or that guy from corp just because they were new to the game or new to fw.


DNLeviathan wrote:


its not that they dont have any strong leaders, they have several. the majority populace just wont accept singular leadership. they generally wont accept advice either.



Caldari needs someone who is strong leader Blink


Yes but even you guys left Cal militia after recruiting tons of pilots and taking them with you just like Wolf brigade and others in the past. I understand the issues of not getting GF's that larger corps in FW have, but it's not like you can't still do other stuff to get them. The fact is most of these larger corps are very lazy in the fact they don't do anything to get those GF's other than expect to shoot the same WT's over and over then wonder why they don't undock.

There is nothing to keep a large corp from shooting other people out side of FW by either piracy or going to null sec and picking fights. Not like you guys are in an alliance taking Sov & systems. There is no reason a corp has to use FW to build up it's numbers than leave because they can't get GF's because Black Rise & Placid offers up some of the best locations in EVE to roam into multiple null sec locations.
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#175 - 2011-12-28 20:00:13 UTC
I dont see how it is any different if you made LP for plexing. If I go to a plex, opposition comes I warp away. I go to another plex. Same thing happens in missions. Opposition comes, missioner warps off nd pops the next mission nextdoor. You do realize that with plexes respawning every 30 minutes that the proposed system will not give you anymore people to blob. They will just keep moving on, and plex where you arent (just like how people mission where you are not). Maybe under the old plex spawning mechanisms where there is limited amount of plexes would this system feed anymore kills into the gallente noob grinding machine.

If you want plexing to be meaningful, what about making VPs tradeable for stuff. Capturing offensive plex gives a little bit of VP, but flipping system gives lots of VP based on how much VP everyone had and rewarded more VP to those who actually plexed and less to those who just came to shoot bunker (still make rewards appealing to both, just give the guys who do plexing work extra). Also there can be mechanics regarding occupancy implemented that might make it worthwhile. Removing missions and making plexes LP is just a gimmick. I'd like a meaningful occupancy system rather than just hunt missioners all day. It's like stabbing someone in the sack when they complain of minor headache. Sure theyll forget the pain they had originally but now you've created a worse problem. Thats what removing missions and having plexes for LP would do.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#176 - 2011-12-28 20:10:55 UTC
Super Chair wrote:
I dont see how it is any different if you made LP for plexing. If I go to a plex, opposition comes I warp away. I go to another plex. Same thing happens in missions.


The only difference is that if you are a farmer and you've spent 15 minutes in a 20 minute plex, that time is now wasted (since the opposition camping the mission either gets a fight or gets LP (or both) therefore having incentive to wait) , unlike the current mission system where you continue with one of the other 15 open missions you have and return later with whatever progress you made still there.

I am not stuck on LP, a VP system or an LP system where you get rewarded more when the system flips is a great idea. I am against the current mission system where it's

- purely a pve only exercise (be it stealth bombers on the caldari side, or gila/ishtars with cloaks on the gallente side)
- where the opposition can do nothing to sabotage your mission progress even if you choose to avoid pvp
- where the opposition feels like they lose if they manage to hold a plex because they just wasted x minutes of their time with no fight and no reward

Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#177 - 2011-12-28 20:27:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
chatgris wrote:
Super Chair wrote:
I dont see how it is any different if you made LP for plexing. If I go to a plex, opposition comes I warp away. I go to another plex. Same thing happens in missions.


The only difference is that if you are a farmer and you've spent 15 minutes in a 20 minute plex, that time is now wasted (since the opposition camping the mission either gets a fight or gets LP (or both) therefore having incentive to wait) , unlike the current mission system where you continue with one of the other 15 open missions you have and return later with whatever progress you made still there.

I am not stuck on LP, a VP system or an LP system where you get rewarded more when the system flips is a great idea. I am against the current mission system where it's

- purely a pve only exercise (be it stealth bombers on the caldari side, or gila/ishtars with cloaks on the gallente side)
- where the opposition can do nothing to sabotage your mission progress even if you choose to avoid pvp
- where the opposition feels like they lose if they manage to hold a plex because they just wasted x minutes of their time with no fight and no reward



The problem IMO to isk for plexing is to make the system workable in order to fix the farming issues of FW mission is the whole plexing system would need to be reworked. It's too easy to run plexes of any size in cheap frigs, meaning it would be pretty much the same issues that we have with missions. (this requires effort from CCP. Effort + CCP + FW = 0)

You would end up with noob accounts with t1 frigs farming them. Hell I can run any gallente plex in a dam Merlin, just by killing the NPC frigs. Use a Kestral with light missiles and it's even easier. They need a complete rework of the FW plexing system into something that either does away with NPC's or at least balance's them for all races and requires the NPC's to be dealt with.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#178 - 2011-12-28 20:31:29 UTC
Mutnin wrote:

The problem IMO to isk for plexing is to make the system workable in order to fix the farming issues of FW mission is the whole plexing system would need to be reworked. It's too easy to run plexes of any size in cheap frigs, meaning it would be pretty much the same issues that we have with missions.

You would end up with noob accounts with t1 frigs farming them. Hell I can run any gallente plex in a dam Merlin, just by killing the NPC frigs. Use a Kestral with light missiles and it's even easier. They need a complete rework of the FW plexing system into something that either does away with NPC's or at least balance's them for all races and requires the NPC's to be dealt with.


I completely agree with this. If CCP cared, it would be worth spending a weekend to put together a document on how the above could be achieved: But given my understanding of CCP's processes, the best we can say is "we'd like plexing to be worth something, and we dislike the situation where farmers can purely pve with no practical way to stop them" and let CCP work out the details.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#179 - 2011-12-28 20:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
chatgris wrote:


I completely agree with this. If CCP cared, it would be worth spending a weekend to put together a document on how the above could be achieved: But given my understanding of CCP's processes, the best we can say is "we'd like plexing to be worth something, and we dislike the situation where farmers can purely pve with no practical way to stop them" and let CCP work out the details.


The only way I could see CCP doing anything the players want in regard to FW is if by some miracle the players of each side decided to work together to push a unified player supported focus on how to fix FW. The reason CCP used to care about places like scrapheap-challenge and so forth was because a large amount of players posted there on that forum, with various thoughts or ideas.

Until then it's just like Republicans vs Democrats.. long as the peons keep squabbling at each other, the powers that be don't really have to do anything but collect RL Isk. Get everyone together with a jointly decided focus and then "maybe" they would think about doing something. (maybe I stress)
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#180 - 2011-12-28 21:01:09 UTC
LOL, there's nothing wrong with FW missions and there's plenty of good fights lately in FW plexes.

I think the devs should be more worried about 0.0 atm since the FW "alliances" are among the best in kills and isk destroyed in the game lately. Seriously guys, there's more action in FW than anywherre else in this game.

w.r.t. Draco. 22nd should have never left it's FW niche. You'd be one of the strongest corps in the entire game right now. Instead, you guys thought the real action was somewhere else. My guess is that you guys got bored fighting infererior forces at a slower pace and then eventually dissolved - like most former FW corps. The pace in FW may seem slow to us in FW, but it's 10x as fast as in 0.0.