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Gallente Redesign

Author
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#161 - 2011-12-23 05:21:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
Tsubutai wrote:
I love how on one side of this argument you have people who are posting with their mains and generally have long killboard histories, and on the other you have a bunch of shitposting NPC corp forum alts. You might say there's something of a credibility gap.


not at all. the main vs. alt argument is a pointless one. many people post on alts to protect their corps from their personal opinions.

you can have all the kb history in the world, and still be disconnected from reality. and the reality is that the top two trolls in this thread (Liang and Cholo) dont actually fly the Gallente ships theyre arguing about, whereas someone like me has flown nothing but Gallente ships since 2006. you dont have to believe it, and i dont care. but i know when MY ships are not considered viable in fleets.
Goose99
#162 - 2011-12-23 05:27:05 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
I love how on one side of this argument you have people who are posting with their mains and generally have long killboard histories, and on the other you have a bunch of shitposting NPC corp forum alts. You might say there's something of a credibility gap.


not at all. the main vs. alt argument is a pointless one. many people post on alts to protect their corps from their personal opinions.

you can have all the kb history in the world, and still be disconnected from reality. and the reality is that the top two trolls in this thread (Liang and Cholo) dont actually fly the ships theyre arguing about, whereas someone like me has flown nothing but Gallente ships since 2006. you dont have to believe it, and i dont care. but i know when MY ships are not considered viable in fleets.


See definition of ad hominem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem]

They resort to it because:
1) They have nothing else
2) They're uneducated enough to embarrass themselves through using such logical fallacy, and fails to realize it means automatic loss in formal debate.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#163 - 2011-12-23 05:54:48 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
I challenge all of you who say the Brutix or other blaster ships are fine to fly them exclusively for 2 weeks and then come back and tell me that it's competitive with a straight face. Take careful notice of how many of your kills involve friends in other ships, cloaky alts, or dumb luck. I have a feeling you'll come to the same conclusion I have with regards to how balanced blaster ships are to the rest of the Eve line up.


Obviously you've never watched any of Kil2's videos... And those were pre-blaster buff. If you have seen them, then you are a troll. If you haven't seen them, I suggest you go watch them and see how mean a solo active tanked Brutix can be. Not even nano, active armor tanked.

http://www.club-bear.com/
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2011-12-23 06:12:05 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
I love how on one side of this argument you have people who are posting with their mains and generally have long killboard histories, and on the other you have a bunch of shitposting NPC corp forum alts. You might say there's something of a credibility gap.


not at all. the main vs. alt argument is a pointless one. many people post on alts to protect their corps from their personal opinions.

you can have all the kb history in the world, and still be disconnected from reality. and the reality is that the top two trolls in this thread (Liang and Cholo) dont actually fly the ships theyre arguing about, whereas someone like me has flown nothing but Gallente ships since 2006. you dont have to believe it, and i dont care. but i know when MY ships are not considered viable in fleets.


See definition of ad hominem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem]

They resort to it because:
1) They have nothing else
2) They're uneducated enough to embarrass themselves through using such logical fallacy, and fails to realize it means automatic loss in formal debate.


You forgot;

3) The alt poster has no actual PvP history to back his side of the argument and knows it. Thus, hiding behind a faceless alt and making wild claims of conspiracy against the alts of Eve when posters with actual combat history, who aren't afraid to hide their kills and losses, make sensible and logical arguments that are backed up with proven experience.

Real World:
Would you take a class in horsemanship from a person who hides who they are “to make sure the person who trained them is safe from their opinions on training” or the championship rider who shows his medals on the wall and whom you can look up their defeats in the ring?

No brainer for me.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#165 - 2011-12-23 07:07:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsubutai
Hungry Eyes wrote:
you can have all the kb history in the world, and still be disconnected from reality. and the reality is that the top two trolls in this thread (Liang and Cholo) dont actually fly the Gallente ships theyre arguing about, whereas someone like me has flown nothing but Gallente ships since 2006. you dont have to believe it, and i dont care. but i know when MY ships are not considered viable in fleets.

Mmmmhmmmm. Are you also an RL millionaire with multiple ferraris and a kickboxing girlfriend?

(also, I am sure there are many people who will do mean things to your [doubtless very accomplished and impressive] corp/alliance/federation of delusional fantasists because of your opinions on the current state of the [meta]game. do we not remember the fall of BoB, instigated by some guy expressing an unorthodox opinion on the merits of the harbinger?)
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2011-12-23 07:15:48 UTC
I'm going to try and watch those vids when I get back to my main comp, this mac is a POS. I went on his youtube channel and saw him get killed by a cane in his dual rep brutix and kill a few frigs with a thorax. Hardly evidence that blaster ships are fine but I'll wait til I can see the proper stuff.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2011-12-23 07:25:31 UTC  |  Edited by: ElCholo
Julius Foederatus wrote:
I'm going to try and watch those vids when I get back to my main comp, this mac is a POS. I went on his youtube channel and saw him get killed by a cane in his dual rep brutix and kill a few frigs with a thorax. Hardly evidence that blaster ships are fine but I'll wait til I can see the proper stuff.


LOL

I'm going to guess that you are refering to the video on his youtube site called "solo brutix fail" where he engages a Cane, a Rapier, and a third shipt I can't identify on my work pc. Maybe not the best one to judge the Brutix on considering the title.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#168 - 2011-12-23 08:21:54 UTC
Why is every one stuck on direct comparison? Numbers are a dev job, how they feel as a hole IS some thing that's our job to describe!

I got a question for ya- If a friend asked you to describe the races, how they behave, how they fly, how they fight, what do you say about Gallente?

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#169 - 2011-12-23 09:07:25 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Julius Foederatus wrote:
I'm going to try and watch those vids when I get back to my main comp, this mac is a POS. I went on his youtube channel and saw him get killed by a cane in his dual rep brutix and kill a few frigs with a thorax. Hardly evidence that blaster ships are fine but I'll wait til I can see the proper stuff.


LOL

I'm going to guess that you are refering to the video on his youtube site called "solo brutix fail" where he engages a Cane, a Rapier, and a third shipt I can't identify on my work pc. Maybe not the best one to judge the Brutix on considering the title.

after that he should go see vids about winmatar , there are at least 2 dozens of it , he cant even miss them
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#170 - 2011-12-23 09:09:51 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
Why is every one stuck on direct comparison? Numbers are a dev job, how they feel as a hole IS some thing that's our job to describe!

I got a question for ya- If a friend asked you to describe the races, how they behave, how they fly, how they fight, what do you say about Gallente?

gallente?? french origin gayish race whose half ships are outclassed by winmatar and the other half is only good for afk pve with drones, oh and your ships skills at least usable to fly imba angle ships
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#171 - 2011-12-23 09:16:40 UTC
You keep getting more ridiculous with every post :/
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#172 - 2011-12-23 09:21:47 UTC
Smabs wrote:
You keep getting more ridiculous with every post :/

you asked for how most player i know would answer that question :P
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2011-12-26 20:41:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

Well, in a 1vs1 it´s not that a big issue, that´s right, the opponent would need to be a class bigger to really hurt you this way. But it is getting more effective with more people. I´ve seen small gang fights where the proper use of neuts meant neutralizing the enemies firepower twice as fast because when working together additionally to destroying ships they kept other opponents capped out. Not permanently perhaps, but it certainly gave them an advantage.
...
I never stated that utility highs are something like a magic key for close combat, just something that can come in quite handy often and can -especially when used in gangs- cause major headaches for the enemies. More would be too much.


Utility highs will always take a distant back seat in a straight up damage and tank in a brawl. TBH, I think you'd focus better on RR BS setups if you want to extol the virtues of utility highs.

Quote:
I left EHP and DPS out because those aren´t really basic design characteristics.


notsureifsrs.jpg

Quote:

Your answer why the Gallente are especially suited for close combat is unsatisfactory. You have not stated a single point of the basic design that is supporting close combat.
Well, to be fair, it doesn´t exist, so it would be impossible for you. The Gallente do not have even one characteristic available only to them that makes them suited for close combat.


Well when you start making stupid comments about how DPS and tank are secondary design characteristics. Roll

-Liang


May sound weird, but EHP and DPS are really not basic design features. Because your role isn´t determined by them. Let me give you an analogy:
If someone is a wizard is determined by the fact that this char can cast spells.
A warrior can use heavy weapons and armor.
Neither their hp nor their damage has anything to do with their role, a wizard with much hp wont be a warrior, but just a wizard with much hp. No reasonable amount of hp will ever make up for the fact that he can not use weapons besides daggers and staffs and wears no armor.
Of course, having more hp makes sense for a warrior, therefore he will usually have more than a wizard, but this is secondary to the basic design feature: weapons and armor.

Not to mention that in any game new chars will have always less hp and damage than old chars. Does that change their roles?

In eve you can see the same effect. Minmatar have significantly less EHP and DPS than Gallente, given these values they should be a far third place or dead last place in close combat, yet they are the best here, or if someone wants to share your enthusiasm for the buff, a close second. And Gallente should never has sucked as much as they did even before the buff.

That´s because their basic design makes Minmatar the optimized close combat race, so they can perform very well here even with that handicap (i did say that they will need considerably more tracking and somewhat more dps accompany the range change to that of blasters. EHP not so much since they probably need even more speed to make close combat useful in fleet warfare, and speedtanking and much ehp could be too much, but these are things that could be tested.).

Using EHP and DPS for determining the role never works out. This is the reason Gallente only have a few niches left, what the devs never intended they are allegedly working on changing that, they would have rather the close combat tactic widely used with the other tactics because of variety. But this will fail. They are currently looking for a method to make them viable again in fleet warfare, mainly of course trying to solve the problem that Blasters can´t get close enough fast enough.
But what will happen if they are finally succeding with this, will then close combat actually come out of it´s niche?
Well, again the fact that neither the ships nor the weapons are designed for close combat screws up months of work and leave blasters a weapon for docking games and suicide ganking.
After all, a fleet can be configured in a way that it has quite respectable abilities to cap out everything that comes close enough. If blasters can come close enough in time to be an issue (and are getting accordingly more widely used), this will become a standard configuration for fleets. So they can effectively take out blasters without even wasting their dps on them, they can fire on the ships that won´t close in. The Gallente either keep out of range and do no damage or they close in and do no damage, because they are capped out.
After that blasters will -again- disappear from being considered useful in fleet warfare.

For close combat fleet warfare a capless weapon is not just nice to have, it´s an absolute requirement, which brings us of course back to the Minmatar.

Ah yes, by the way, i´m still curious about the features that makes Gallente so specialized for close combat.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.

Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2011-12-26 22:19:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sebastian N Cain
Tsubutai wrote:
I love how on one side of this argument you have people who are posting with their mains and generally have long killboard histories, and on the other you have a bunch of shitposting NPC corp forum alts. You might say there's something of a credibility gap.

Actually no. First off, you can´t tell the circumstances why someone has no kb-history. For example, this is my main, yet a 9m-sp char does not reflect my experience. A hint: there were several occasions where people biomassed their chars because they were fed up with ccp but came back after quite a bit time.
I do not say that i am the god of pvp, a legend of legends and you should all worship the amazing me (feel free to do so, thoughCool). I would say i´m average or maybe even a bit above average when counting the people that actually know what they are doing.

Second, most of the time killboards are just useful for stroking your epeen. People are bragging about how leet they are but they forget to mention all the stuff that really ensured their victory (like the 20 guys in your gang that also were in the fight when you defeated that bs or the fact that you were station camping). Also there are many people that are better at theory than at praxis, you would completely disregard them even if what they are saying reflects more ability to grasp the problem and solve it than their kb-stats would suggest. So at best using killboard history for judging your skills is debatable.

And third, it doesn´t really matter. Because the kind of fights you have ingame aren´t really useful for reference. You would need controlled fights with more or less evenly skilled pilots, so you can rule out most of the stuff that will screw up the results for proper balancing testing.
So it´s more about theory and arguments here in the forums and frankly speaking, when discussing topics like game design and balancing you better don´t use killboards as quality control, but real-life diplomas and such. You don´t see companies that are developing games giving jobs to good players, for good reason(or you end up with such people as game designers and developers). This is stuff you learn for years at universities. Saying your kb-stats are giving you credibility is rather ridiculous. You are -as everyone not having the proper qualifications- completely clueless about the topics discussed here. That doesn´t mean we can´t talk about it even if none of us is an expert, but it does mean that you better not make up your own qualification process that doesn´t mean jack.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.

Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#175 - 2011-12-26 22:39:08 UTC
Dorian Tormak wrote:
Light Neutron Blaster II : 9 PG, 18 CPU.

200mm Autocannon II : 4 PG, 9 CPU.

Look at that and tell me hybrids are not gimped to death! And I hear it only gets worse the bigger the ships get.


wow thats pretty imbalanced also considering the fact that blasters use tons of capacitor especially with t2 ammo and no selectable damage types .....

and yes it only gets worse ... you can barely even fit the smallest medium blasters on a thorax and vexor for example and even then you have to sacrifice something else to get them on.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2011-12-26 23:47:10 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
Why is every one stuck on direct comparison? Numbers are a dev job, how they feel as a hole IS some thing that's our job to describe!

I got a question for ya- If a friend asked you to describe the races, how they behave, how they fly, how they fight, what do you say about Gallente?


Well, i always felt they would make great generalists. Neither especially good at anything, but also not bad at anything. With flexibility as the strong point and easy to fly. So forcing them solely into close combat feels like gimping them. It´s not that they are really bad there now, but they aren´t really shining there either. And if you are restricted so narrowly, you absolutely need not only be workable, you need to excel or you wont be competitive against the others.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.

Rutuli
Rizoma records
#177 - 2011-12-27 07:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rutuli
Its not just buff speed, range, dmg, web range, etc. Use the correct combination of posible ewar favored for gallentes like

New bonuses for gallente blaster boats: warp scambler range per lvl, or fix dampener so at least you can avoid getting hamered before you enter into the hotzone
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#178 - 2011-12-27 08:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

Actually no. First off, you can´t tell the circumstances why someone has no kb-history. For example, this is my main, yet a 9m-sp char does not reflect my experience. A hint: there were several occasions where people biomassed their chars because they were fed up with ccp but came back after quite a bit time.


You can get a biomassed character back.

Quote:
Second, most of the time killboards are just useful for stroking your epeen. People are bragging about how leet they are but they forget to mention all the stuff that really ensured their victory (like the 20 guys in your gang that also were in the fight when you defeated that bs or the fact that you were station camping).


A killmail and a decent KB shows those 20 other guys via the battle report. That you suggest otherwise implies you have little-to-no practical knowledge of what a killmail contains. Unless of course those 20 guys somehow managed to influence the fight without using a single offensive module.

Quote:
And third, it doesn´t really matter. Because the kind of fights you have ingame aren´t really useful for reference. You would need controlled fights with more or less evenly skilled pilots, so you can rule out most of the stuff that will screw up the results for proper balancing testing.


If this was the case, then we could safely throw out the accumulated killboard statistics entirely, since they are heavily influenced by the metagame (who's fighting, what they fly, how well they do) rather than actually acting as a indicator of ships stack relative to each other (unless you seriously believed that Drakes could defeat Abaddons in which case "u r dumb").

Quote:
So it´s more about theory and arguments here in the forums and frankly speaking, when discussing topics like game design and balancing you better don´t use killboards as quality control, but real-life diplomas and such. You don´t see companies that are developing games giving jobs to good players, for good reason.


This is completely false and you're making yourself seem clueless for even bringing it up. WH space, the current sov system, and mothership to supercarrier changes were designed largely by an EVE player (Seleene AKA CCP Abarthur). In other, better balanced games (i.e. professional tournaments like HoN, WoW, LoL, etc.), players are routinely brought in as balance and gameplay experts, because, shockingly enough, they know more about how to create a balanced, enjoyable experience than developers do.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#179 - 2011-12-27 11:30:35 UTC
Speaking of design unless I'm wrong gallente fleet doctrine is supposed to be to damp enemy weapon range to near 0 and then rush in with blasters basing, this ofc. is about as useful as the "charge of the light brigade" vs. a machine gun nest.

Question is how do we make this scenario feasible in EVE's current meta game ?
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#180 - 2011-12-27 11:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Baneken wrote:
Speaking of design unless I'm wrong gallente fleet doctrine is supposed to be to damp enemy weapon range to near 0 and then rush in with blasters basing, this ofc. is about as useful as the "charge of the light brigade" vs. a machine gun nest.

Question is how do we make this scenario feasible in EVE's current meta game ?


Feasible as a fleet doctrine?

-Nerf Abaddons, Apocalypses, Armageddons, Rokhs, Maelstroms, Tempests, Drakes, Tengus, Zealots, Muninns, Gilas and every other ship that can fight effectively from more than 40km.
-Boost on-grid probing by reducing the warp limit down to around 50km.