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Gallente Redesign
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Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#141 - 2011-12-22 20:21:13 UTC
Sadly a large amount of fitting can't prevent dumb.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2011-12-22 20:35:21 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

You think hybrids where buffed greatly? Fly an AC-Boat like a Blasterboat, and then you see a real close-combat performance how it should be. Try it out. You will understand why i´m stating that the Minmatar should be made the new close combat race. Aside from the fact that their weapons have more range they already are. And they are the only ones you can make this style of fighting work outside of a few niches.


Heh, I've done it many times. Here's the most recent example:

Last night I spotted a Myrm in Egghelende and Tomin and I went to kill it. We did. Then I was sitting my GCC off at a belt in Egg because Amamake was pretty quiet, and I spied a Thorax at a belt. I figured I had two choices - warp in at zero and have the best opportunity for a tackle or warp in at range as my vagacane might demand. I was greedy for a kill (it was waaaay too ******* quiet) and I warped in at zero. Lo and behold, the Thorax was at zero as well and scrammed+webbed+pointed me straight away.

Its not that big of a deal though, and the first thing I did was prime gunes, point, and put my drones on him. Then I zoomed in on his ship and matched transversals while overheating for my 770 overheated DPS (my skills - 784 max). Tomin arrived shortly thereafter but had the foresight to warp in at a bit of range - and it wasn't terribly long after that he saw a Cane + Drake on scan. I overheated everything but the neuts didn't cap the Thorax out before the Drake and Cane landed and point+scram+webbed me again.

The Cane started lighting me up and both of them launched ECM drones at Tomin. I finished off the Thorax before turning my attention to the Hurricane. His shields went down fast, and his armor faster still.. but I still only got him to half armor before I went down in a blazing ball of fire. They instascooped my wreck and fled the field when Tomin came back in to try to finish the (very) damaged Cane off.

The entire fight took place within 3-5km and my two utility highs did absolutely nothing for me.

Here's my loss mail: http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=60520

Here's the fit:
[Hurricane, Vagacane]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5

Vital Stats (my skills):
- 50k EHP
- Overheated DPS: 770 @ 1.9+20

Here's a similar Brutix fit that I wish I'd been in:

[Brutix, Shield Gank Brutix]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Scrambler II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hammerhead II x5


Vital stats (My skills):
- 55k EHP
- Overheated DPS: 969 @ 2.6+8.1

So here's the skinny:
- The Brutix does 28% more DPS
- The Brutix has 11% more EHP
- The Brutix tracks better, and would have applied DPS to the Thorax better.
- The Brutix actually has better ranges for the fight took place in.
- I have every reason to believe I would have killed both the Thorax and Hurricane with a Brutix instead of the Cane.

Long and short? Minnies lack the things that really matters in a brawl - DPS and Tank.

-Liang


Kudos for actually posting a BR and some fits, most ppl on the forums don't seem to be willing to do that these days.

A few comments though. Firstly, this entire fight is predicated on you ******* up and warping in at 0. One of the biggest complaints (still is I'd bet) is that a blaster ship is completely reliant on his opponent making a mistake for him to win a fight. This has obviously not changed between a Brutix and a cane (or a thorax for that matter). Nor is it any different between the Talos and the Tornado or the Oracle. Because they have the shorter range, they get ****** by faster opponents, time and again. There is something fundamentally wrong with this combat philosophy that makes your ship about as useful as a permajammed Ibis against a large class of opponents. Gallente need more speed or Projectiles need a range nerf. Either one can help us out of this mire but something needs to be done.

Also if you fit an invuln to your cane you would likely get similar EHP to your Brutix, and I don't think 5k extra ehp plus the extra dps would have been enough to kill the cane.

One last point is that your shield cane is not a brawling fit. A brawling fit cane would be a 1600mm, vulcan fitted cane with 2x med neuts. That fit would facerape a shield brutix or otherwise, and maintain all the advantages that a blaster ship should have with all the benefits of a minmatar ship's slot layout and fitting space. I'd say more but my char limit is getting low so I'll turn it back over.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2011-12-22 21:18:57 UTC
pretty much dead on. brutix, like all other blaster boats, is a one-trick pony.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2011-12-22 21:51:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Julius Foederatus wrote:
Also if you fit an invuln to your cane you would likely get similar EHP to your Brutix...


Invuln over 2nd extender doesn't even give 5k ehp, more like 3k overloaded.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2011-12-22 21:56:17 UTC
It must be the structure giving the extra HP then. Still, I don't think the dual LSE is superior to the LSE + invuln, if only cause it makes it harder to get reps when you do get them.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#146 - 2011-12-22 22:00:03 UTC
I love how on one side of this argument you have people who are posting with their mains and generally have long killboard histories, and on the other you have a bunch of shitposting NPC corp forum alts. You might say there's something of a credibility gap.
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#147 - 2011-12-22 22:01:53 UTC
Misato Katsuragi wrote:
The sad thing is when most players clicked on this thread, they already knew what I am referring too. Gallente warfare philosophy as it stands, is just not possible with its current ship designs and weapon systems. I started playing eve back in 2003 and always had the understanding that gallente were the up in your face, hard hitting faction. Able to take extremes amount of damage while closing with their targets in preperation to take them out in a few hits. Currently, their ships are too slow, can't take a lot of damage, and their weapons can't reach their targets. In general they are a confused warfare philosophy.

Issues related to Gallente:

Blaster range and damage. (Hybrids in general, draw backs of lasers and projectiles but you can't select damage type!?)Still bad tracking and range, and still medicore damage.

Information Warfare. This is so far out of place I don't even know where to begin. CCP knows its broken but doesn't know how to fix it. I'm going to add the EOS in here as well.

Webs. So the fastest race in eve gets web bonuses, but the second fastest gets warp disruption. Really? Give gallente ships the web bonus and the minmatar ships warp disruption bonuses. Giving web range bonuses to the dedicated blaster ships could fix the problem. Back in the day a thorax standard build always had a web.

Armor. How I just love the repping bonus.... so not only do I have to power my guns but I also have to power my armor tank, that repairs at the end of its cycle and my AB/MWD. Like another thread stated why do gal have to be just armor.

Speed. Not fast enough, and still a lot of mass to move around. Gallente ships have never felt nimble. Its like a jet engine strapped to a tank. You can't corner in those needed high velocity blaster orbits.

I'm sure there some other issues out there, but these are just a few I have seen. Gallente were once an effective race, now they are the bastard child of Eve.

OK EOS fix: Remove drone bay bonus, just stupid to begin with... Lower bandwith to 50, add a 10% drone damage bonus. Ugh, was that so hard. Sorry just had to put that out there.



As a full Winmatar/Caldari/Amarr specc'ed- Bittervet, I agree 100%.

Fixing Gallente would open up 25% of EVE's content for me.

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
Goose99
#148 - 2011-12-22 22:03:31 UTC
xxxak wrote:

Fixing Gallente would open up 25% of EVE's content for me.


^This, +1Lol
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2011-12-22 23:07:55 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
I love how on one side of this argument you have people who are posting with their mains and generally have long killboard histories, and on the other you have a bunch of shitposting NPC corp forum alts. You might say there's something of a credibility gap.


Quoted for Truth.... All the way.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2011-12-23 00:34:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
ElCholo wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
I love how on one side of this argument you have people who are posting with their mains and generally have long killboard histories, and on the other you have a bunch of shitposting NPC corp forum alts. You might say there's something of a credibility gap.


Quoted for Truth.... All the way.

It is only good for we can see how your blaster eagle failed horribly:P
I wonder why you stopped useing hybrid ships :D

noob learn pvp
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#151 - 2011-12-23 00:52:49 UTC
Blaster eagle was pretty bad I guess, that's why I stopped useing it for noob pvp.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2011-12-23 02:18:32 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
I love how on one side of this argument you have people who are posting with their mains and generally have long killboard histories, and on the other you have a bunch of shitposting NPC corp forum alts. You might say there's something of a credibility gap.


Confirming that I have no KB history.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#153 - 2011-12-23 02:26:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Julius Foederatus wrote:

Kudos for actually posting a BR and some fits, most ppl on the forums don't seem to be willing to do that these days.

A few comments though. Firstly, this entire fight is predicated on you ******* up and warping in at 0. One of the biggest complaints (still is I'd bet) is that a blaster ship is completely reliant on his opponent making a mistake for him to win a fight. This has obviously not changed between a Brutix and a cane (or a thorax for that matter). Nor is it any different between the Talos and the Tornado or the Oracle. Because they have the shorter range, they get ****** by faster opponents, time and again. There is something fundamentally wrong with this combat philosophy that makes your ship about as useful as a permajammed Ibis against a large class of opponents. Gallente need more speed or Projectiles need a range nerf. Either one can help us out of this mire but something needs to be done.

Also if you fit an invuln to your cane you would likely get similar EHP to your Brutix, and I don't think 5k extra ehp plus the extra dps would have been enough to kill the cane.

One last point is that your shield cane is not a brawling fit. A brawling fit cane would be a 1600mm, vulcan fitted cane with 2x med neuts. That fit would facerape a shield brutix or otherwise, and maintain all the advantages that a blaster ship should have with all the benefits of a minmatar ship's slot layout and fitting space. I'd say more but my char limit is getting low so I'll turn it back over.


A few comments:
- It is not a mistake to warp to zero. Warping to zero offers the best chance to get a kill - especially if the enemy warped from an unknown direction to the belt at an unknown distance. Furthermore, if you warp to 20 it becomes utterly trivial for someone to break your point and warp away. I guess it comes down to whether you're a total pussy about losing a cheap ass ship or you want to actually get some kills.
- It seems really hilarious for you to comment on whether or not the DPS would have made a difference. First, the blaster Thorax was dual 1600mm plate fit with light guns. All he did during the fight was tackle the **** out of me. If I'd done 30% more DPS with better tracking, I'd likely have started the fight with the Cane+Drake with more EHP remaining and I would MOST CERTAINLY have killed the Cane. He was at half armor with me spending time chewing through the Thorax FFS. I'd say chances are I'd have taken a big chunk out of the Drake too.
- The Talos has a drone bay and vastly superior tracking to any other Tier 3 BC. This gives it unparalleled defense against small/fast things when compared to the Tornado and Oracle. Also, it is surprisingly fast and agile - it does not have trouble getting into range to deliver its DPS.

As to the 1600mm Plate Cane vs Shield Brutix:
- The Cane fit as specified would have ~67k EHP to Void and do ~607 DPS (my skills)
- The Brutix would be doing ~52k EHP to RF EMP and do ~945 DPS (my skills)
- The Cane has a TTK Brutix of ~85 seconds.
- The Brutix has a TTK Cane of ~71 seconds.
- The Cane's best chance to win is to fit disruptor + dual web and overheat both neuts and half the guns. Attempt to pull range immediately and pray the Brutix pilot uses his cap on the MWD.

And this is a Tier 2 BC fighting a Tier 1 BC. I'd say that if we had a proper Tier 2 blaster BC it'd be no contest which would win. And it wouldn't be the Cane. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2011-12-23 02:47:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ElCholo
Naomi Knight wrote:
It is only good for we can see how your blaster eagle failed horribly:P
I wonder why you stopped useing hybrid ships :D

noob learn pvp


Confirming that you can take one loss that equals about .1% of my pvp experience in a 10/1 kill/loss recond and use it as a summary for pvp skills compared to a faceless alt with zero stats.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2011-12-23 03:04:41 UTC
It is a **** up when your cane is not fit with a scram and has a paper tank. You would have been in a great position to actually win the fight if you had just warped to 20 and pointed him before he warped off, and since he was dual 1600mm that wouldn't be very hard. But you already know that, you just seem to think that playing to win is somehow the same as being a giant pussy. I'll leave that argument for another day.

Secondly I'd like to see that fit for the 1600mm cane that you're using, because I'm almost positive you can squeeze way more dps out of it than that. I'm assuming it's 3x trimark? Also a cane most likely will cap out a brutix in the time that you're talking about, not to mention can fit a TD so as to mitigate a large amount of dps from the Brutix, something a shield Brutix can't hope to match.

I don't want to get sucked down this hypothetical Brutix v. Hurricane argument too far, the whole point is that this entire situation depends on you warping to zero. If you don't, the Brutix and/or Thorax have no chance whatsoever, even with your fit that has no speed mods on it. It's your action that allows them to even have a hope at winning. There is nothing that they can do by themselves to win if you do not allow them to. That is the essence of why blasterships fail even after the buffs, which did nothing to alleviate it. All the buffs did was give blasters supremacy in the close range niche, but they still have just as much trouble getting there due to all the reasons mentioned before: speed, armor rig penalties, and slot layout on the ships.

The truth is, if you had been in a Brutix, the drake and cane would have just moved away from you and you'd have been killed while chasing after them in vain, without you even having to fit a speed mod on your cane. That is the reason why most blaster ships are still fail even after the buff.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2011-12-23 04:02:59 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
The truth is, if you had been in a Brutix, the drake and cane would have just moved away from you and you'd have been killed while chasing after them in vain, without you even having to fit a speed mod on your cane. That is the reason why most blaster ships are still fail even after the buff.


I love it when people start of sentences with, “The truth is”. Implying that what they are saying is the only truth on the matter and that people who agree with them are correct and anyone else’s opinion on the matter is just that, an opinion, a wrong opinion to be precise.
You sir, are incorrect. What you are stating is merely your opinion on a situation which could have gone several ways. By trying to label your situation correct and any other situation incorrect, you are showing the weakness in your argument by forcing others to try to see that your way is the only right way, when it is fact, not.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#157 - 2011-12-23 04:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Julius Foederatus wrote:
It is a **** up when your cane is not fit with a scram and has a paper tank. You would have been in a great position to actually win the fight if you had just warped to 20 and pointed him before he warped off, and since he was dual 1600mm that wouldn't be very hard. But you already know that, you just seem to think that playing to win is somehow the same as being a giant *****. I'll leave that argument for another day.


You have no way to know whether someone at the belt is fit with nanos or a triple 1600mm plate. In my experience, most people either do not warp to zero or leave zero rather immediately when ratting. If you want to get a kill, the best thing to do is warp to zero. Even if he warps in close warping in at range can leave you 40km+ from him - which gives him an eternity to warp out.

Quote:

Secondly I'd like to see that fit for the 1600mm cane that you're using, because I'm almost positive you can squeeze way more dps out of it than that. I'm assuming it's 3x trimark? Also a cane most likely will cap out a brutix in the time that you're talking about, not to mention can fit a TD so as to mitigate a large amount of dps from the Brutix, something a shield Brutix can't hope to match.


Sure, here's the version of the Hurricane I used - complete with retardo drone selection to eek the last DPS out of it. You can of course squeeze even more DPS out of it, but you're going to be sacrificing EHP by doing it - which means that the Brutix will kill you even faster.

IME, the 2x web fit is much better than the web+TD fit because it gives you a much better chance against frigates and helps minimize the mobiility pain that comes with being plated and trimarked. The TD is an option, but basing your case around it gets silly because I didn't even pick the best Brutix fit for ganking the Cane. I just picked what people actually fly.

[Hurricane, Plate Cane]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x1
Hobgoblin II x4

Quote:

I don't want to get sucked down this hypothetical Brutix v. Hurricane argument too far, the whole point is that this entire situation depends on you warping to zero. If you don't, the Brutix and/or Thorax have no chance whatsoever, even with your fit that has no speed mods on it. It's your action that allows them to even have a hope at winning. There is nothing that they can do by themselves to win if you do not allow them to. That is the essence of why blasterships fail even after the buffs, which did nothing to alleviate it. All the buffs did was give blasters supremacy in the close range niche, but they still have just as much trouble getting there due to all the reasons mentioned before: speed, armor rig penalties, and slot layout on the ships.


The funny thing about it is that a standard Shield Brutix with1 TE will outdamage a standard 2 TE Vagacane all the way out to 13km... and its pretty fast when it comes barreling in at 1700 m/s. I think you're not giving nearly enough credit to just how fast the blaster ships are now.

Quote:

The truth is, if you had been in a Brutix, the drake and cane would have just moved away from you and you'd have been killed while chasing after them in vain, without you even having to fit a speed mod on your cane. That is the reason why most blaster ships are still fail even after the buff.


No, I think the truth is that they'd have both landed right as I popped the Thorax and then sat there patiently waiting for me to blow them up in rapid succession. Its got just as much truth as your "truth". Roll In all seriousness though, the Thorax would have died much faster and the Cane would have been nabbed and unable to run away from me.

I really like how you make up the worst case scenario every time despite it having no actual passing resemblance to reality.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2011-12-23 04:55:46 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
It is only good for we can see how your blaster eagle failed horribly:P
I wonder why you stopped useing hybrid ships :D

noob learn pvp


Confirming that you can take one loss that equals about .1% of my pvp experience in a 10/1 kill/loss recond and use it as a summary for pvp skills compared to a faceless alt with zero stats.


naomi doesn't pvp, but when he does, he loses T3s to 2x t1 cruisers and gate sentries.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#159 - 2011-12-23 05:05:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ElCholo
Mfume Apocal wrote:

naomi doesn't pvp, but when he does, he loses T3s to 2x t1 cruisers and gate sentries.


Everyone has their moments. lol

Mine was making the mistake of going through OMS to catch up to a fleet of Beagles that some friends of mine and I put together to go have some lols. Since everyone will engage an Eagle. They managed to have the fun, I died enroute.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2011-12-23 05:16:05 UTC
Word to the wise, arguing over semantics doesn't make your position any stronger. And guess what, canes can overheat too. The standard shield Brutix still only gets about 1100m/s with its MWD on (without overheat). I can't check EFT atm since I'm on a mac but I remember the cane does somewhere in the upper 1200m/s range. Unless you tackle the cane right as he lands, he will get away and you will not kill him. The last thing I'll say about your cane story is that if the opponent had been nano fit it wouldn't have made a difference if you warped at zero or at 20, beyond you being close enough to point him, even though he's got a head start on you anyway, so he can decide if he wants to engage or not before you can actually tackle him in either case.

Regardless, arguing over this scenario is pointless because it doesn't even reflect the vast majority of encounters that happen in pvp environments. How often is a shield cane going to land within scram range of a Brutix? I fly blaster ships almost exclusively and I can tell you that it is not often. Furthermore you have to use teammates with cloakies for warp ins, or inties, or someone else who can slow the other ship down in order for you to apply dps in normal circumstances. Everyone knows it, that's why you don't see solo Brutixes or Deimos or Thoraxes flying around.

I challenge all of you who say the Brutix or other blaster ships are fine to fly them exclusively for 2 weeks and then come back and tell me that it's competitive with a straight face. Take careful notice of how many of your kills involve friends in other ships, cloaky alts, or dumb luck. I have a feeling you'll come to the same conclusion I have with regards to how balanced blaster ships are to the rest of the Eve line up.