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My petition to make Novice Plex access restricted to T1 frigates only

Author
Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#101 - 2016-05-21 07:48:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucy Lollipops
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
What we have been trying to tell you is that yes, EvE can be hard - but Fear Not! Because luckily, there are many players who are willing to teach you what they know.

You seem to think this is CCPs job but nope - not even the knowledge base is maintained on CCP's servers. EvE University, RvB, Brave Newbies, Pandemic Horde, Karmafleet and a thousand-and-one other newbee/newbean friendly corps are all PLAYER RUN initiatives!

...which you've all rejected.

So yeah. Bummer. Don't ask for help if you don't want any.


Novice complexes really really are as easy as it gets. I know you struggle to believe that, I know you want an even easier complex but that's the best you're gonna get. When you join the militia, you have a militia chat channel. Ask questions there, team up with fellow newbros (which you are also unwilling to do) .....


What exactly is it you struggle with? The vibe I'm getting is that -in your opinion- Faction Frigs are the problem. I admit, I haven't done FW in over six months but from what I remember, those were not the norm. You could get goodfights with Tristans, Rifters, Kestrels, Condors, Slashers, Crusifiers, Mauluses -- hell, I shot people in a freakin' Vigil.

Some guys will attempt to gang up on you, some may or may not have links -- but that too is part of PvP : knowing when to NOT take a fight. Learning how to dictate the terms of a fight so that it turns out in your favour.


You think a faction frig is an "I Win" button, don't you? Well, let me tell you you're flat out wrong. People pay maybe 20 or 50 mil extra to get the same T1 frig you're flying plus 1 bonus. If they cannot use that bonus, they got nothing on you. You don't think you get a fair and honest chance? Well, the small weapon systems and frigs can be trained to decent levels in as little as 8 days. Then you have exactly the same skills they have, for the scale doesn't go past level V.

Since this thread already exceeds eight days, I suggest you start facing the fact maybe you want to try something easier before getting disillusioned, and pick up the more difficult solo career once you got the basics down.


If you're serious about getting into PvP, shoot me an in-game mail.


I've just done a 60 mil. worth relic site, that was already partially done by a player I scared away with combat probes, it was thrilling.

So no, it's not about me only, I'm having lot of fun on Eve, with exploration mainly, FW is something I tried and I will keep trying but it's not my basic fun on Eve, and I feel lucky it isnt.

The problem is you keep focusing on me, while you should focus on new players.

I've already tried Eve years ago, two or three times and abandoned it because it was not friendly to newbies at a all ( I found it extremely complicated ).

Then I tried another time months ago because I had a chance to play it with a friend and it was much better.

But not everyone is lucky to have a friend to play with, so I'm thinking about that kind of player.

You say "no problem, everything is good, novice plexing are very good and easy. Faction/pirate frigates are ok and doable for a newbie".

Ok, you're right, no expoitation, everything is good, new players experience is how it need to be.

Keep doing my exploration.....
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#102 - 2016-05-21 08:38:28 UTC
people have offered you help and directed you to the way to seek help but you seem that you are set in your ways of being a total solo player and learning without help, we cant help people who dont want to be helped.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#103 - 2016-05-21 08:40:45 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
people have offered you help and directed you to the way to seek help but you seem that you are set in your ways of being a total solo player and learning without help, we cant help people who dont want to be helped.


You obviously didn't read my posts, including last one...
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#104 - 2016-05-21 09:43:51 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
What we have been trying to tell you is that yes, EvE can be hard - but Fear Not! Because luckily, there are many players who are willing to teach you what they know.

You seem to think this is CCPs job but nope - not even the knowledge base is maintained on CCP's servers. EvE University, RvB, Brave Newbies, Pandemic Horde, Karmafleet and a thousand-and-one other newbee/newbean friendly corps are all PLAYER RUN initiatives!

...which you've all rejected.

So yeah. Bummer. Don't ask for help if you don't want any.


Novice complexes really really are as easy as it gets. I know you struggle to believe that, I know you want an even easier complex but that's the best you're gonna get. When you join the militia, you have a militia chat channel. Ask questions there, team up with fellow newbros (which you are also unwilling to do) .....


What exactly is it you struggle with? The vibe I'm getting is that -in your opinion- Faction Frigs are the problem. I admit, I haven't done FW in over six months but from what I remember, those were not the norm. You could get goodfights with Tristans, Rifters, Kestrels, Condors, Slashers, Crusifiers, Mauluses -- hell, I shot people in a freakin' Vigil.

Some guys will attempt to gang up on you, some may or may not have links -- but that too is part of PvP : knowing when to NOT take a fight. Learning how to dictate the terms of a fight so that it turns out in your favour.


You think a faction frig is an "I Win" button, don't you? Well, let me tell you you're flat out wrong. People pay maybe 20 or 50 mil extra to get the same T1 frig you're flying plus 1 bonus. If they cannot use that bonus, they got nothing on you. You don't think you get a fair and honest chance? Well, the small weapon systems and frigs can be trained to decent levels in as little as 8 days. Then you have exactly the same skills they have, for the scale doesn't go past level V.

Since this thread already exceeds eight days, I suggest you start facing the fact maybe you want to try something easier before getting disillusioned, and pick up the more difficult solo career once you got the basics down.


If you're serious about getting into PvP, shoot me an in-game mail.


Well, his point about novices is sensible to some extent. Like for example was T3Ds right for smalls or were they to dominant in there and same comparison can be made about some pirate frigs in novices (like worms).
Maekchu
Doomheim
#105 - 2016-05-21 09:52:38 UTC
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
The problem is you keep focusing on me, while you should focus on new players.

If there is any new player out there that is reading this thread. Please don't be like the OP and remember the following things:

- The most important thing in EvE to get you going, is to get into a newbie friendly corporation that does the activities you enjoy. Not only will it be a great source of information for you to learn from, it is also a great opportunity to build social networks and get contacts. While EvE can be played solo, it is mostly a community based game. Much is gained by socializing with the rest of the player base.

- While you may have watched some stream/youtube of some of the great solo PvPers and wish to do the same, remember that this way of playing the game requires you to have a decent amount of experience in order to be successful. Therefore, this way of PvP is not the easiest to start with. I would recommend you find a corp first, do some small gank. Then eventually transition into solo PvP if this is truly what you want to try out.

- The FW complex might be tagged "Novice", but do not be fooled into thinking this means that the players sitting/entering these plexes are newbies as well. The only thing these plexes does, is to restrict the size of the ships that can enter the site. Use your d-scan to scan down the plex or, if in a plex, the immediate surroundings and just don't engage if you don't think you can take on what the scanner finds.

- Don't be like the OP and believe an even smaller PLEX than "Novice" will help any matter. It just won't, since many vets will still roam around in T1s, as they are currently doing.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2016-05-21 10:08:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Brokk Witgenstein
@Ashlar

Agreed. I do remember posting about that myself -HOWEVER- the patch after said post, T3Ds got nerfed and shoved out of the smalls.

Likewise, the worm was just too badass to our liking so we kinda avoided those. Those guys could practically instapop destroyers. In the meantime, Drone Damage amps got nerfed so I ain't complaining about those either. As balance would have it, that's also the reason people looking for gudfites rarely fly worms: nobody wants to engage them unless they have backup ;-)

Of course there are still (and always will be) some ships in all plex sizes you want to avoid, unless you're in something that packs a punch yourself; but assuming it's unlikely CCP would add an UltraNovice complex, one has to draw the line somewhere. T3 cruisers don't go in medium, T3 destroyers don't go in smalls, and T3 frigs if there were any probably wouldn't go in novices.

Faction on the other hand, adds diversity.

Between Vanilla, Navy, T2, Pirate and T3 there is indeed a bit of a progression in both price and performance, but on overall I think the balance is good as-is. Pirate frigs may be king of the hill but it also allows for tough, uphill battles with greater rewards. Especially when there is no limit on how many people can participate in a complex.

Learn which ones you want to steer clear from ..... what more can I say? You can't just outlaw one or two particular types for every complex size; I do believe simplicity is paramount. No T3 for any size is all you need to remember. It's clean-cut, it's easy, and it's mostly just.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#107 - 2016-05-23 12:30:55 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
@Ashlar

Agreed. I do remember posting about that myself -HOWEVER- the patch after said post, T3Ds got nerfed and shoved out of the smalls.

Likewise, the worm was just too badass to our liking so we kinda avoided those. Those guys could practically instapop destroyers. In the meantime, Drone Damage amps got nerfed so I ain't complaining about those either. As balance would have it, that's also the reason people looking for gudfites rarely fly worms: nobody wants to engage them unless they have backup ;-)

Of course there are still (and always will be) some ships in all plex sizes you want to avoid, unless you're in something that packs a punch yourself; but assuming it's unlikely CCP would add an UltraNovice complex, one has to draw the line somewhere. T3 cruisers don't go in medium, T3 destroyers don't go in smalls, and T3 frigs if there were any probably wouldn't go in novices.

Faction on the other hand, adds diversity.

Between Vanilla, Navy, T2, Pirate and T3 there is indeed a bit of a progression in both price and performance, but on overall I think the balance is good as-is. Pirate frigs may be king of the hill but it also allows for tough, uphill battles with greater rewards. Especially when there is no limit on how many people can participate in a complex.

Learn which ones you want to steer clear from ..... what more can I say? You can't just outlaw one or two particular types for every complex size; I do believe simplicity is paramount. No T3 for any size is all you need to remember. It's clean-cut, it's easy, and it's mostly just.

Fair enough.

About the worms in novices there are a few funny stories, like - put one in novice that is not a low-sec FW "hub" and you can watch netflix on your other screen casually plexing 'cause not a lot of people will bother you. There could always be a discussion about if ship in a certain environment is a fight deterrent most of the times, should it stay there or not.

So imo, if banning pirate ships will make new bros more happy and willing to take fights, I can't see why not go for it. Same can be said about long requested limited engagement timer on entering plexes, but that is a different topic.

PS
About T3Ds in smalls 10mn svips were annoying, others things were quite ok and killable. Now we have command dessies in smalls, they don't have as much dps as T3Ds but good god they are tanky bastards.(and if you drop E and links in to the mix they become such a pita to fight)
Blastil
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#108 - 2016-05-23 15:51:58 UTC
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
All kind of "revenge" on selfish players can be interesting, but what I'm pointing out is that having a chance to really duel with a cheap pvp ship against other kind of ships would make pvp experience for new players like me much more interesting.

How it is it seems newbies destiny is to be killed all time by veterans that don't care if you are new to the game or not, you are simply another line in their victim's roster.

It's frustrating and in my opinion making many new players to quit.

A t1 versus t1 would help new players like me to actually learn pvp even if they haven't time/chance to enter a pvp corp having teacher spending much time to teach them pvp.

Oh, someone said faction ships are t1, pity they are extremely overpowered if compared to the ships a new player can afford to fly / lose.


1) Plexing isn't dueling. Plexes are designed from the ground up to be small gang objectives. If anything they should be impossible to solo. If you want to duel, provoke one on the undock of some major market hub.

2) Newbs are destined to die all the time by vets. This game is not a solo game. There is NO solo in eve. Even 'solo' pvpers are collaborating through a market to improve and better their equipment. Often these 'solo' pvpers are using mechanics like boosting to improve their chances in a fight. Solo does not exist except purely be accident.

3) Nothing in eve stops you from buying a faction frigate. Even the high-end pirate frigates will take you all of like 4 days to get into from start

4) Your fits are probably bad. I've killed garmurs in navy frigates and t1 frigates before (hull tanked comets ftw!). Its all about the surprise, skill, and the fitting.
Aeana K
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2016-05-26 09:00:30 UTC
Lucy Lollipops wrote:


jumped....killed...podded....



You may do not know yet, but you have done the best and most important step in the game: No fear to be killed.

You may do not know yet, but so many (probably most of the) players, still have that fear, to step in pvp, including my shity self.

you may do not know yet, but I admire you mate.

/A
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#110 - 2016-05-26 09:59:02 UTC
Blastil wrote:
[quote=Lucy Lollipops]Often these 'solo' pvpers are using mechanics like boosting to improve their chances in a fight. Solo does not exist except purely be accident.


not really, im sure a lot do solo, i certainly do solo stuff, so it does exist

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Aves Asio
#111 - 2016-05-26 11:00:17 UTC
Only blobers claim that solo doesn't exist.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#112 - 2016-05-26 13:37:48 UTC
What is going on here.....
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#113 - 2016-05-26 17:02:28 UTC
Quote:
Well, his point about novices is sensible to some extent. Like for example was T3Ds right for smalls or were they to dominant in there and same comparison can be made about some pirate frigs in novices (like worms).


Except it really isn't sensible at all.

So let's assume this idea became a thing. Great, you no longer have to worry about faction frigates of any kind in a novice plex. As a new player fresh out the gates you feel confident in your ability to handle anything that enters your plex. Only that isn't the case at all. Why? Because in your ignorance you believe all T1 frigates are created equal, and fail to account for the various ways many of them can be fitted, as well as the relative skill and experience of the pilot. You lose again and again, and much like the OP find yet another ship to complain about. Now it's become a matter of crying about how Merlins do too much DPS, or Tristans are broken. You learn nothing new, and learn significantly less than you would normally because three quarters of the ships you'd normally be facing aren't able to reach you. You never leave the safety of your Nub Plex, because if you can't beat a T1 frigate in a "fair" fight, what hope do you have against anything else?

Eventually, you decide you've had enough, and sensibly use what LP you've gained to upship to a faction frigate. Only now you can't enter your Nub Plex. Instead you're expected to compete with Destroyers, Assault Frigates, Command Destroyers, Interceptors, Interdictors, and other Faction Frigates. Congratulations, you've broken Small Plexes. Your time spent in the safety of your Nub Plex has stagnated your learning curve, upset the balance of another plex, and created a huge spike in difficulty for yourself.

Your comparison to the imbalance of T3Ds in smalls is flawed. The entire class was grossly mismatched against existing ship types it would come against. That very few people are complaining about how they've failed to compete within medium plexes proves they should never have been allowed in smalls in the first place, and CCP should have followed their own restrctions to begin with. As far as frigates go, each faction frigate can be countered within its own class. There are exceptions, but they are ship specific and not a result of faction frigates as a whole being massively overpowered in comparison to the rest of their peers.

The issue isn't that certain frigates are better than others. It's the inexperience of the pilot, and their inability to correctly select targets, coupled with the apparent unwillingness to learn from their mistakes and grow as a result. Naturally you should break FW to account for their inadequacies.

Quote:
What is going on here.....


Nothing good, that's for sure.
Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#114 - 2016-05-26 17:07:27 UTC
May Arethusa wrote:
Quote:
Well, his point about novices is sensible to some extent. Like for example was T3Ds right for smalls or were they to dominant in there and same comparison can be made about some pirate frigs in novices (like worms).


Except it really isn't sensible at all.

So let's assume this idea became a thing. Great, you no longer have to worry about faction frigates of any kind in a novice plex. As a new player fresh out the gates you feel confident in your ability to handle anything that enters your plex. Only that isn't the case at all. Why? Because in your ignorance you believe all T1 frigates are created equal, and fail to account for the various ways many of them can be fitted, as well as the relative skill and experience of the pilot. You lose again and again, and much like the OP find yet another ship to complain about. Now it's become a matter of crying about how Merlins do too much DPS, or Tristans are broken. You learn nothing new, and learn significantly less than you would normally because three quarters of the ships you'd normally be facing aren't able to reach you. You never leave the safety of your Nub Plex, because if you can't beat a T1 frigate in a "fair" fight, what hope do you have against anything else?

Eventually, you decide you've had enough, and sensibly use what LP you've gained to upship to a faction frigate. Only now you can't enter your Nub Plex. Instead you're expected to compete with Destroyers, Assault Frigates, Command Destroyers, Interceptors, Interdictors, and other Faction Frigates. Congratulations, you've broken Small Plexes. Your time spent in the safety of your Nub Plex has stagnated your learning curve, upset the balance of another plex, and created a huge spike in difficulty for yourself.

Your comparison to the imbalance of T3Ds in smalls is flawed. The entire class was grossly mismatched against existing ship types it would come against. That very few people are complaining about how they've failed to compete within medium plexes proves they should never have been allowed in smalls in the first place, and CCP should have followed their own restrctions to begin with. As far as frigates go, each faction frigate can be countered within its own class. There are exceptions, but they are ship specific and not a result of faction frigates as a whole being massively overpowered in comparison to the rest of their peers.

The issue isn't that certain frigates are better than others. It's the inexperience of the pilot, and their inability to correctly select targets, coupled with the apparent unwillingness to learn from their mistakes and grow as a result. Naturally you should break FW to account for their inadequacies.

Quote:
What is going on here.....


Nothing good, that's for sure.


It's very nice to see persons so absolutely sure of their point of view.

I always doubt things instead, including the way FW is for newbies that cannot commit themselves to small gangs pvp from the beginning.
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#115 - 2016-05-26 17:19:33 UTC
Quote:
It's very nice to see persons so absolutely sure of their point of view.


It helps if you're right. Which I am.

Your idea doesn't fix your inability to commit to something.
Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#116 - 2016-05-26 17:23:08 UTC
May Arethusa wrote:
Quote:
It's very nice to see persons so absolutely sure of their point of view.


It helps if you're right. Which I am.

Your idea doesn't fix your inability to commit to something.


Your words and attitude speak for themselves.

Thanks for your helpful contribution to the discussion :)
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#117 - 2016-05-26 21:29:23 UTC
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
Your words and attitude speak for themselves.

Thanks for your helpful contribution to the discussion :)


As do yours.

Thanks for making it abundantly clear you have zero interest in developing your "idea" or responding appropriately to valid criticisms.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#118 - 2016-05-27 00:32:54 UTC
If you wanted to make a novice plex a 'rookie' plex, then i would ask that it rewarded zero LP and zero VP.

Otherwise, you have such a narrow engagement envelope that effects other peoples ability to dock in a system. These people that enjoy docking in that system may in fact, not be rookies.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#119 - 2016-05-27 01:18:33 UTC
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
It's very nice to see persons so absolutely sure of their point of view.

I always doubt things instead, including the way FW is for newbies that cannot commit themselves to small gangs pvp from the beginning.

That first sentence is quite ironic given your reluctance to consider any of the criticism given by experienced FW players.

If anything could be done to actually help newbies in FW, then it would be to make an effort to create a proper newbie corp like Pandemic Horde or Karma Fleet. As it is now, FW is just too fragmented and even if there are some great corps out there, they don't seem to be specifically targeted towards new players. This would actually make newbies learn about FW.
Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#120 - 2016-05-27 02:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucy Lollipops
May Arethusa wrote:
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
Your words and attitude speak for themselves.

Thanks for your helpful contribution to the discussion :)


As do yours.

Thanks for making it abundantly clear you have zero interest in developing your "idea" or responding appropriately to valid criticisms.


My idea was actually developing.

If you've read my posts (and not only the first one) it should be clear to you I'm not only talking about changing the already existing novice plex ( that's not novice at all, unless CCP consider novices players able to consistently fight pirate faction veterans warping in the plex to kill easy preys all time), but maybe adding a new one.

I'm also not only "asking" or discussing something for my own "advantage", I have many other in-game activities, I'm more thinking about newbies and how incredibly hard can be for them if they decide to try some pvp and they cannot commit to a pvp oriented corp.

Anyway, I kept trying some FW and the situation I saw so far is the following:

-Hisec systems near FW areas are "base-camped", it means opposite faction players stay docked with expensive ships, usually 2/3 persons, when lonely players of opposite faction undock they undock too, kill the person then quickly dock.
They usually use very explensive ships around 1 bil, they can kill other with nearly zero risk.

- Lowsec systems are often gatecamped, so it's even hard to arrive to a plex...

- When you are lucky to arrive to a plex, the plex gate is often gatecamped in particular during rush hours. I've found up to 3 ships camping entrances.

-When you finally enter the plex, after some time you can easily notice that every veteran that enters a system immediately check novice plexes, you see a new player in the systems and seconds later you're almost sure you can dscan his ship outside plex checking if there can be a easy prey inside. Then they may enter or not, depending what they see inside. If you are using a t1 ship you're almost sure they enter to kill you.

90% of them are not FW Militia players....

So for what I've seen so far, being this FW extremely hard for a newbie and extremely frustrating, having at least the opportunity to be attacked by a "decently similar" ship when managed to enter a plex alive would be something extremely positive for newbies FW experience.