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Warfare & Tactics

 
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My petition to make Novice Plex access restricted to T1 frigates only
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Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#21 - 2016-04-28 13:06:22 UTC
pvp is about learning when to fight and when to run

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2016-04-28 13:07:03 UTC
Hello Yang,

From what you just said you didn't read what I wrote at all.
Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2016-04-28 13:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucy Lollipops
Lan Wang wrote:
pvp is about learning when to fight and when to run


Correct.

But if FW was made to introduce players to PVP and novice plexes are made to introduce newbies to pvp fights, if newbies need to run away 99% of the fights because opponents are overpowered 99% of times, it means mechanics are working very badly.

If FW is made to learn me to flee from opponents because developers are happy about faction ships with fleet bonuses warping in novice plexes for easy kills all time, then mechanics are perfect (for pirates at least...)..

P.S.

Probably next answers will be the usual :

It's a sandbox!!!

The developers put the tools, it's players make the content.

Yes, yes, and I live in the fairy tale world with pink dragons and princesses to save.


Developers made it for having players to learn pvp, many like me I think they learn nothing because of exploited mechanics...

This is why I am pointing out the problem....
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#24 - 2016-04-28 13:17:43 UTC
I agree that the naming scheme for the complexes is misleading.

Gameplay wise, they are working as intended, imo. If limited time is your answer, you can still join a Corp. I consider myself a part-time Eve player as well. It doesn't stop me from joining whatever fleet I see available at any given time.

My recommendation still stands. Find a quiet system, perhaps in Placid or north of the Orvolle entry and start there. A navy frigate it's only one plex in t2. Cheap enough for anyone to get into to improve their chances. Takes ten minutes.
Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2016-04-28 13:59:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucy Lollipops
Oreb,

I understand your point of view, you suggest to farm some plexes to be able to buy a faction frigate.

It's something intelligent to do for sure, personally I can buy faction or even pirate ships because I have some alts and I farmed some money.

But this post is not about me only.

I put my myself as a new player that tries this game and wants to try pvp.

The natural way is to go FW and to learn it in the novice plexes.

It didn't happen at all for me when i tried to do like that.

As I wrote I was helpless killed several and several times, learning almost nothing because when you die in 5 seconds you have no time to learn a fight at all.

It's like learning chinese as a foreigner, you can read thousand of times and listen thousand of times but if you have no "link" to meaning, you will absolutely never learn it, even if you listen thousand of hours of chinese spoken.

Same for this kins of novice plexes pvp I clearly saw.

It's so unbalanced and you die so fast you will learn nothing at all even after you are killed 1000 times.

To farm a plex for money is relatively easy for me, because I'm playing eve for some months now, but I am confidently sure it's not the same for a total noob.

And for sure the wait and flee tactic is so boring new players will think this game is really horrible and grind/based...

It's for them I'm writing this post, not mainly for myself ;)
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#26 - 2016-04-28 14:08:30 UTC
do you have friends to help you or are you totally solo?

have you considered joining a group to learn fleet pvp, game really shines in small gang pvp

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#27 - 2016-04-28 14:41:24 UTC
Find some people that are better at PVP than you are learn from them.

Find some people who are always looking for the shiney pirate frigs and their off grid links that will come clear them out of system for you and give them the intel when you see them around (shameless plug: think I'm up to 17 or 18 off grid booster kills in the last 8 days).

I had the fortune of running into some great pvpers early on in my EVE career.

JUSTK is recruiting
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#28 - 2016-04-28 15:37:32 UTC
If we are talking about navy faction only, then you have more than a fair chance to kill them in a t1 hull. Your idea does make sense tho. It would be interesting to see novices turned in to t1/faction navy frigs only imo.(I think CCP even were talking about that some time ago, but don't quot me on that.)

PS
links are going on grid soon, so half of your complaint is already being worked on.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#29 - 2016-04-28 15:46:14 UTC
If you have an aversion to other people you still have utube videos and twitch recordings within your reach. You should find no shortage of frigate themed ones.

I agree that Eve is a very non -intuitive game to learn, but out has come a long way from where it was when I chose to try to learn, when the only option you had was train 1 month+ to get into a t2 hull. I can tell you that didn't taste any less bitter. Today you can do much more in much less, if you have the know how. Unfortunately, Eve will probably always be a game you have to reference many guides to understand better.

You're not wrong in much of what you say, but improvement might have to come through climbing out of some windows to get a better perspective of what the layout inside is like. That comes through word of mouth usually, of others that made it out of the same labyrinth.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#30 - 2016-04-28 17:31:37 UTC
The obvious problem here is that you are Caldari. Roll another toon and join Gallente instead. Your FW experience will greatly improve.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#31 - 2016-04-28 17:47:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rinai Vero
Everyone who is good at EVE now had to deal with the exact same challenge you are facing. Either you are going to learn like everyone else, or you are going to keep complaining and eventually quit. That choice is entirely yours.

Disclaimer: I am not good at EVE. I have good friends instead of good skills. Actually, that might mean I am good at EVE...
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#32 - 2016-04-28 18:56:26 UTC
As has already been mentioned you need to find an actual FW corp to join and learn the ropes. NPC FW corp mates are no more corp mates than citizens of the same country are room mates.

You also keep implying that FW is "intro pvp" and novice plex's imply novice pilots and both couldn't be further from the truth.

"Developers made it for having players to learn pvp"

I really have no idea where you're getting this from other than surmising it for yourself but it's simply not the case. FW is just a mechanic placed in the game to provide content, both pve and pvp, not as learning tool no matter what some null bear may have told you. Many of the best solo and small gang pvp pilots in the game are in lowsec simply because they live it everyday unlike the big fleet follow the leader stuff out in null sec. And novice plexes are only called novice because it sounds better than "x-tra small." It only refers to the ship restrictions in place and technically those faction frigs you're complaining about are T1 frigs. Just more expensive and capable ones. The skill requirements are no different.

I don't see your name on kill boards so I have no idea what kind of fits you're flying but it's safe to say you need some instruction on mechanics, tactics and ship fits otherwise you certainly wouldn't be out there getting nuked and podded in 2 seconds as you've claimed. It's unreasonable to expect that you can come into a war zone with little to no knowledge or experience and immediately start winning fights.

Eve pvp isn't just a dice game where you can go head to head and have a fair chance of winning. You need the proper ships, with the proper fits and you need to know how to employ them effectively. The only way you're going to achieve those things in any kind of reasonable time frame is to find others that are willing to share what they know and teach you the ropes. If you don't like working with others then learn what you need and then leave but you're just not going to magically figure it out all on your own. You're up against over a decade of developing tactics and knowledge that people have acquired and then subsequently passed on to others.

If you want to stop losing and figure out how to win then the ball is in your park to make it happen but it's not going to happen until you step up with some humility and accept that you aren't going to "win" EvE all on your own. No one walks into a lab and says "I'm gonna be the next great astrophysicist but I'm not going to pick up any books or go to school. I'm just gonna figure it all out on my own." Nor can you step into EvE and say "I'm gonna win because I'm a special snowflake."

Find an FW corp or even a neutral low sec pirate corp and learn from what they can teach you. You may not even have any luck in the first corp you join, maybe not even the second or third. It may take a while to find a good group of ppl that are willing to happily work with you but rest assured those groups are out there. If you are willing to switch to Amarr faction then I don't think we'd have any trouble helping you out so long as you're willing to cowboy up and learn. We're all mature (personality wise) and are generally pretty friendly and there are plenty of other corps out there that can offer the same.

Basically don't expect the game to change for you. The game is fine how it is. You're the one who needs to become part of the game.

o7

Daemun of Khanid
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2016-04-28 19:36:14 UTC
Solo PVP is one of, if not the, hardest style of PVP in EVE. It's awesome but expect to die a lot. Like, 100s of times.

Consider joining a PVP corp to have fun and learn with group PVP as well.

FW complexes are not designed/balanced specifically for solo PVP (though they happen to actually BE good for solo PVP because of the acceleration gate - makes it much easier to control who and how many you're fighting).

They're designed for faction WARFARE, as in lots of good guys (gallente) fighting against lots of bad guys (caldari) for system control. Adding more plex types wouldn't break much I guess, but we already have 4, no real need to over-complicate.

As a solo newbro, you should at least fit your t1 frig with t2 mods, be able to overheat (everything!), and have most/all relevant skillz trained to 4 (3 is ok for the longer trains). Else you'll really have a hard time killing anything. It shouldn't take you more than a month or so training from scratch.

Also, you'll need to patiently learn the different frigs and fittings and try to fly so-called 'hard counters'. As a newbro, you'll likely lose against the same exact ship type (e.g. brawl vs. brawl). Instead, you can win if for example you manage to kite a brawl ship (e.g. long-range mwd frig vs. short-range ab ship).

As someone else said, always keep in mind that the guy who just killed you was once a newbro like you. Contrary to what most people say, EVE actually is a FAIR game, in the sense that whoever puts in the most time/effort/brains usually wins. So keep it up!

Finally: record your fights with FRAPS or similar software. Frig fights as you have learned are over in seconds, only way to understand wtf happened is re-playing in slow-mo. You'll be surprised at all the simple mistakes you can make in the heat of the action.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Paxx Mandragoran
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2016-04-29 15:09:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Paxx Mandragoran
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

Also, you'll need to patiently learn the different frigs and fittings and try to fly so-called 'hard counters'. As a newbro, you'll likely lose against the same exact ship type (e.g. brawl vs. brawl). Instead, you can win if for example you manage to kite a brawl ship (e.g. long-range mwd frig vs. short-range ab ship).


In my opinion (which is worth its weight in gold!) this is the most important concept to learn about solo PvP. When I first started, I had heard the terms kite fit and brawl fit, but didn't really understand how important the difference is and how much of your success or failure depends on the matchup of ship styles, rather than the difference between T1 and T2/faction hulls/mods.

Those things make a difference, but if your opponent in the T1 kite fit kestrel can keep your T2 brawling frigate at range where his weapons can hit you but yours can't hit him, then it doesn't matter if his ship can only do 100 dps and yours can do 250 - he's going to slowly whittle you down and win because he had the right counter to your fitting.

Player skill/experience also comes into play here, because an experienced brawler pilot will know some tricks to be able to close that range and not allow the kiter to dictate the range of the engagement.... and likewise, a skilled kiter will have tricks up his sleeve to maintain that range.

So what does all of that mean to you? It means that style matchups are really more important than T1 vs T2/faction. Figure out what style you want to fly (brawl, kite, scram kite) and then learn which ships that style fitting is likely to have success against. Engage those ships and avoid the bad matchups.
Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2016-04-29 15:55:43 UTC
Hello again.

From all your very useful posts I learn different concepts and informations, so I thank everyone warmly.

Some of the informations that I've read I think should be given out to newbies like me often so we can be able to enjoy FW faster, being this game, as someone said, not intuitive to say the least.

Anyway, regarding ships, the most interesting information I got from you is about the navy frigates (i.e. Navy comet).

Navy frigates, like navy comet, can be bought for about 10k LP and some more little money for other components, it's a really affordable price to pay, in particular that amount of LP is quite easy to obtain doing FW, even simply with defensive plexing.

So if other "noobs" are reading this post, my suggestion is to focus on doing some defexive plexing with very cheap ships and gain the 20-30k lp to be able to buy some Navy Comets ( or similar navy frigaters ) so you will have a solid ship for your pvp.

This informations unfortunately are really hard to find online in my opinion, but I'm happy that a forum post gave me the chance to collect some so I'll be sharing it with other newbies like me...
Stormin
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2016-04-29 16:52:42 UTC
I've also been learning FW flying mostly T1 Frigs. My advise to you is learn what you can fight, try different ships and find what works for you.

I see a ton of Comets around in Cal/GalMil space. I've tried fighting them in many ships, the best luck so far has been with a Tristan. I've also had many close fights in a Tormentor. With good piloting I think both of those ships match up to a Comet decently. https://zkillboard.com/kill/53396420/

You can always run away from them or get into a ship that has similar paper stats. Lastly you can always fly a Comet yourself!

A few things that can help when fighting Comets:

-Look at the ship (blasters or rails?)
-Stay away from blasters (~5km+)
-Orbit tight vs rails (~1km-500m)
-Know how fast your ship is! If it's slower you wont be able to keep the needed range. (AB heated Comet can go ~1.5km/s+)
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2016-04-29 22:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I think it'd be great if there were a handful of lesser value sites that only allow access to T1 frigates. The limitation won't stop people from getting ganked much but the decreased value will a bit. It'll be helpful for giving newbies a stepping stone.




OP, I have some advice for you. Most sites are not camped most of the time, and you weren't simply getting unlucky. You were probably falling prey to conditions you didn't know about that the pirates were using against you:
1.) it may have been a high-traffic area where pirates decided was a good spot to set up camp
2.) after you got ganked once or twice, it may have incited the pirates to track you and set up traps specifically for you, because you showed them that you put out (by dying to them)
3.) you may have been in someone else's space without realizing it. Perhaps they were actually running the site but shot you on sight because NBSI.

There are things you can do to keep yourself safe. Here's a few off the top of my head, by no means an exhaustive list of all ways to defend yourself:
1.) At the acceleration gate, focus your D-scan to 110,000km range and 15º angle, then center your camera on the vanishing point of the gate (where ships will disappear off to in warp), and scan. If there are ships in the site which aren't cloaked and aren't combat recons, you will see them on d-scan (make sure your overview settings show the ships!).
2.) Check local. If there's nobody in local, there's nobody camping the site. If there's people in local and they mostly belong to the same alliance or corporation, you're probably in their space and likely not welcome. If local is flooded, there are probably pirates everywhere.
3.) Go far away from trade hubs. Research where the trade hubs are and find bits of highsec that are away from trade routes. When you jump across several systems and see very few pilots, you're probably in the right area. The lowsec near those regions tends to get much less traffic.
4.) Make sure you're not being followed. Read the names of folks in local. If you start seeing the same name too many times in different systems, that person may be following you. A spy is probably not associated with the people who are tracking you, but will be an alt, so just because it's a noob in NPC school doesn't mean the person isn't a threat. They could be in fleet and on voice chat with the enemy.
5.) Don't get yourself a reputation as a loot piñata. The more you lose in one area, the more you should get away from that area. If you ever lose something particularly valuable (100 mil value or more) then you should probably stick to highsec for a few days or more or fit warp stabs on everything you fly.


P.S.: best way to get into PVP is to find fleets. Don't worry about honesty, most people who agree to fleet up with a noob in a frigate are not just trying to gank you, and if they are, you only lose a frigate. Get in voice chat with them. You'll learn far more with people. You can solo PVP later after you learn how to PVP.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#38 - 2016-04-30 14:35:03 UTC
Quote:
No Character/Corp/Alliance by that name could be found!


Your suggestion would simply pigeonhole newer players, significantly increase the power gap they experience when they decide to move on to larger plexes, hamper their learning experience, and decrease the risk farmers face.
Netan MalDoran
Cathedral.
Shadow Cartel
#39 - 2016-04-30 17:32:57 UTC
Lucy Lollipops wrote:
Hello Oreb,

I am asking to add a extra small plex limited to t1 frigates, not important how many LP are gained at the end of counter, even half of a novice plex can be more than enough, my idea is to give a chance of a decently fair fight for newbies, to spend weeks and weeks dying all time with almost zero chances to win a fight is something that makes new players to leave PvP, not to join and love PvP at all.

Obviously it would make pirates not so happy, I was told many of them simply like to add new kills to their list, they don't care if they kill a newbie or a veteran, they simply love to add kills to their collection,. very very easy kills are always welcomed.


You see, the problem isnt the game, its YOU.

Most newbs die a few times, then LEARN from their mistakes, then rarely die again.

YOU on the other hand are saying fu*k it and just brainlessly dying every time because you dont want to learn.

Sooo, either HTFU, or go back to WoW.

"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Falcon's truth
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#40 - 2016-04-30 20:00:57 UTC
The answer is clear. Remove all ships from the game.