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[Citadels] Dreadnoughts

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Guillame Herschel
Buffalo Soldiers
#121 - 2016-04-27 19:25:24 UTC
Zomgnomnom wrote:
Rev and Pheonix 3rd bonus is garbage.


4% armor resistance per level is garbage?

Old Revelation:
Amarr Dreadnought bonuses (per skill level):
10% reduction in Capital Energy Turret activation cost
5% bonus to Capital Energy Turret rate of fire
Role Bonus:
• Can fit Siege modules

New Revelation:
Amarr Dreadnought bonuses (per skill level):
10% reduction in Capital Energy Turret activation cost
5% bonus to Capital Energy Turret rate of fire
4% bonus to all armor resistances
Role Bonus:
• Can fit Siege modules
Lugh Crow-Slave
#122 - 2016-04-27 22:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
the third bonus is the cap reduction you had to reword that to change it to resistance what was the point in that?


the rev and phoenix both have bonuses that are there just to be effective with their own weaposn(rev more so than phoenix) thats the issue


one of the main things ppl were hoping would be fixed with the rev when the rebalance came was that damn 10% reduction


right now gal/minm get double damage and a tank bonus

caldari and amarr get a damage and a tank bonus and then a bonus just to make their guns work

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#123 - 2016-04-28 12:32:23 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
the third bonus is the cap reduction you had to reword that to change it to resistance what was the point in that?


the rev and phoenix both have bonuses that are there just to be effective with their own weaposn(rev more so than phoenix) thats the issue


one of the main things ppl were hoping would be fixed with the rev when the rebalance came was that damn 10% reduction


right now gal/minm get double damage and a tank bonus

caldari and amarr get a damage and a tank bonus and then a bonus just to make their guns work


All this depends on how much damage the guns actually do, they have all been rebalanced. And T2 ammo has been brought into the mix.

Don't complain about the bonuses until you have actually run the numbers. Last time I saw the numbers, while they were still in development, they were like this. Using T2 Siege, T1 Ammo, T1 Guns/Launchers, 3 T2 Damage Mods and Max Skills:

Revelation Short Range Guns = 6979 DPS
Moros Short Range Guns = 7677 DPS
Naglfar Short Range Guns = 7677 DPS
Phoenix Short Range Guns = 6979 DPS

Revelation Long Range Guns = 4653 DPS
Moros Long Range Guns = 5118 DPS
Naglfar Long Range Guns = 5118 DPS
Phoenix Long Range Guns = 4653 DPS

Revelation High Angle Guns = 4653 DPS
Moros High Angle Guns = 5118 DPS
Naglfar High Angle Guns = 5118 DPS
Phoenix High Angle Guns = 4653 DPS

I think these numbers look about right - 700 DPS difference for more tank.

Don't forget also that the 4% armor/shield resists is like an extra free low slot, which could be used for another damage mod.

Lastly, there is also the fact that the dreads with double damage bonuses NEED the dread skill to LVL 5 to be good, because at lvl 4 they lose a LOT of their bonus. Rev and phoenix at lvl 4 dread skill will be not far off on damage, making them much more new-player friendly.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#124 - 2016-04-28 16:25:56 UTC
why do dreads have so much more cargo over carriers i thought they were supposed to be similar to keep one from become a better suitcase?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Alexis Nightwish
#125 - 2016-04-28 16:44:16 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Rabbit P wrote:
anything about the siege (triage also), weapon timer, combat refitting?
We need a clear statement about this issue.


This is in the patch notes (found here) Smile
Quote:
Refitting in space will no longer be possible with a weapons timer.


There is no exception to this rule for Triage, Siege or Bastion.

Simply remove the weapons timer from those modules. No one-off exceptions need to be made regarding weapons fitting with a combat timer.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Lugh Crow-Slave
#126 - 2016-04-28 17:15:13 UTC
bastion needs to have a weapons timer the others can keep on w/o it

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#127 - 2016-04-28 19:14:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Rabbit P wrote:
anything about the siege (triage also), weapon timer, combat refitting?
We need a clear statement about this issue.


This is in the patch notes (found here) Smile
Quote:
Refitting in space will no longer be possible with a weapons timer.


There is no exception to this rule for Triage, Siege or Bastion.


Understood about not being able to refit with a weapons timer, if the intention is to remove refitting in PVP. The refit change is clear in the patch notes, but no mention of the specific modules generating a weapons timer without aggressing another player or structure.

However the weapons timer ruins the use of Marauders in C4/C5 space, for example, which need to be able to refit during PVE.

I would expect this would also cause problems in the new wormhole escalations after going into Siege/Triage, and L5 missions. There are a lot of PVE applications where refitting in space is essential. Edit: This appparently isn't the case.

Can you please explain why it is intended these modules generate a weapons timer when turned on? If they are going to attack or rep a player structure, they'll get one anyway. So why not remove the weapons timer on module activation and let the player make the choice on their fitting when they need to commit to the fight? They will already be immobile while the module is cycling.

I could see the argument that a Marauder could sit in Bastion mode on a gate while waiting out their aggression timer, but they can already do that, and can't drop a mobile depot that close to a gate anyway. And the weapons timer would last longer than the aggression timer or Bastion cycle anyway. So I don't think that's a valid reason for the modules themselves to generate weapons timers.
Johng Kahn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#128 - 2016-04-28 20:33:56 UTC
I am with Ransu on this. I just flew my alt in a Golem in a wormhole site and figured out you cannot refit in pve scenario.

I will do my homework and re-evaluate options for running c5 with marauder but I cannot see a viable reason that the bastion module should invoke a weapons timer.

The truth is that for both pve and pvp you basically have made pirate battleships far more viable than marauders. They can already out dps a marauder and have far better tank then a marauder thats not in bastion. My only reason for even running a Marauder in pve was for the challenge of running sites that pushed the limits of the hull and using refitting skills to make it happen.

For pve combat refitting is a skill and adds content to your play. Also when the inevitable PVP incoming gank happens you basically have a 99.99 % chance of dead marauder now. With no way to refit for PvP due to you have a bastion cycle up on top of a 1 Minuit weapons timer. Best option would be to just log into your other toon and hope you can get to the fight and take a few out before your rauder folds.

I can appreciate the desire to create more challenging PVP environments in game play but it should not be at the cost of removing lots of PvE content for a certain hull. As someone else had stated. The inability to refit in certain situations also makes certain roles the most boring style of game play and thus removes content from flying certain roles.

Should we all just fit blob doctrines and become F1 monkeys? Because thats what i'm starting to feel here.

Also if people stop flying marauders in PvE say in c5/c4 or in null then you just removed one of our favorite PvP endeavors ! Finding a gang of ratting Marauders and killing them !!!!

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#129 - 2016-04-28 20:43:48 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Rabbit P wrote:
anything about the siege (triage also), weapon timer, combat refitting?
We need a clear statement about this issue.


This is in the patch notes (found here) Smile
Quote:
Refitting in space will no longer be possible with a weapons timer.


There is no exception to this rule for Triage, Siege or Bastion.


Understood about not being able to refit with a weapons timer, if the intention is to remove refitting in PVP. The refit change is clear in the patch notes, but no mention of the specific modules generating a weapons timer without aggressing another player or structure.

However the weapons timer ruins the use of Marauders in C4/C5 space, for example, which need to be able to refit during PVE. I would expect this would also cause problems in the new wormhole escalations after going into Siege/Triage, and L5 missions. There are a lot of PVE applications where refitting in space is essential.

Can you please explain why it is intended these modules generate a weapons timer when turned on? If they are going to attack or rep a player structure, they'll get one anyway. So why not remove the weapons timer on module activation and let the player make the choice on their fitting when they need to commit to the fight? They will already be immobile while the module is cycling.

I could see the argument that a Marauder could sit in Bastion mode on a gate while waiting out their aggression timer, but they can already do that, and can't drop a mobile depot that close to a gate anyway. And the weapons timer would last longer than the aggression timer or Bastion cycle anyway. So I don't think that's a valid reason for the modules themselves to generate weapons timers.


CCP Larrikin wrote:


Q) Are you adding a weapons timer to Siege or Triage, like Bastion has?
A) No.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#130 - 2016-04-28 21:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
Corrected previous post. Well they have them (Bastion). So is that a bug then, or a change planned to come out?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#131 - 2016-04-29 00:21:00 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
Corrected previous post. Well they have them (Bastion). So is that a bug then, or a change planned to come out?


bastion needs it for the same reason it was given it

station games

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#132 - 2016-04-29 01:10:32 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


bastion needs it for the same reason it was given it

station games


So I read a couple of the threads on that.

Citadels already solve the problem of station games, since there is the property "Disallow Tethering = True", and you can't dock in a Citadel while you're warp disrupted. Once you commit to a fight on a Citadel, you are committed to finishing it.

So if we want to prevent games on NPC stations with Marauders, surely there must be a way of doing it that doesn't ruin all of C4/C5 Marauder PVE in trade. It's essential that we be able to refit while running sites.

The problem here isn't even combat refitting during station games, since you can't drop a mobile depot near a station anyway. I suppose you could undock a Nestor/Carrier and refit, but that's not the issue here.

If the problem is undocking and going into Bastion mode, blapping something, then sitting in Bastion and tanking until your aggression is up and you can dock, then the solution to me would be to make it so you can't activate the Bastion module within a certain range of a station. Same as you can't activate a smartbomb within a certain range of a station.

Or would it be possible to have the aggression timer separated from weapons timer?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#133 - 2016-04-29 02:10:26 UTC
id rather they just add the same limitation to all stations that citadels have and remove station games entirely

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
7even7eas
MYSTERY Bank and Holding Logistics
#134 - 2016-04-29 07:35:17 UTC
im very upset about dreadnaughts spawning in havens, i didnt know that was going to happen and i lost an ishtar because i didnt notice it because it was listed as an asteroid in my overview so all of a sudden two ro three hits i was gone.


do dreadnaughts apwn in the lesser sapwns so i can do those instead?
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#135 - 2016-04-29 08:48:34 UTC
7even7eas wrote:
im very upset about dreadnaughts spawning in havens, i didnt know that was going to happen and i lost an ishtar because i didnt notice it because it was listed as an asteroid in my overview so all of a sudden two ro three hits i was gone.


do dreadnaughts apwn in the lesser sapwns so i can do those instead?


It appeared as an asteroid in your overview?! Lolololol

Try not playing AFK.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#136 - 2016-04-29 09:21:38 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Ransu Asanari wrote:
Corrected previous post. Well they have them (Bastion). So is that a bug then, or a change planned to come out?


bastion needs it for the same reason it was given it

station games



With command destroyers, this now only applies in high sec and as far as I'm concerned screw anyone dumb enough to get involved in station games in highsec, it is another reason to move out alongside crap like neutral reps. There are lots of ridiculous special snowflake sets of nonsense going on in highsec, what is one more?
Carrion Crow
Head Like a Hole.
#137 - 2016-04-30 18:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Carrion Crow
In terms of the design logic of the fictional in game dread designers...

Why not make the dread fleet hangers big enough so that a dread can carry a full set of High angle guns?

They can currently fit 2... why not 3?

This seems like a design flaw and doesn't allow a dread to travel then refit for a different role...

If I was the fictional dread designer, I would of prioritized the fleet hanger over a ship maintenance bay.

Come on lads, sort it out.

CC
Lugh Crow-Slave
#138 - 2016-04-30 21:58:36 UTC
Carrion Crow wrote:
In terms of the design logic of the fictional in game dread designers...

Why not make the dread fleet hangers big enough so that a dread can carry a full set of High angle guns?

They can currently fit 2... why not 3?

This seems like a design flaw and doesn't allow a dread to travel then refit for a different role...

If I was the fictional dread designer, I would of prioritized the fleet hanger over a ship maintenance bay.

Come on lads, sort it out.

CC


I think it's intended that they can't. That way you have some level of commitment. The nag is just an oversight maybe?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#139 - 2016-05-01 15:39:57 UTC
Carrion Crow wrote:
In terms of the design logic of the fictional in game dread designers...

Why not make the dread fleet hangers big enough so that a dread can carry a full set of High angle guns?

They can currently fit 2... why not 3?

This seems like a design flaw and doesn't allow a dread to travel then refit for a different role...

If I was the fictional dread designer, I would of prioritized the fleet hanger over a ship maintenance bay.

Come on lads, sort it out.

CC

Actually, I think they can now? Packaged guns are only 1k m3 so you can bring out a few spare guns. There's just no bringing them back with you, they have to be disposable. Either that or you win the fight and bring in haulers to scoop your guns.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#140 - 2016-05-01 22:47:04 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Carrion Crow wrote:
In terms of the design logic of the fictional in game dread designers...

Why not make the dread fleet hangers big enough so that a dread can carry a full set of High angle guns?

They can currently fit 2... why not 3?

This seems like a design flaw and doesn't allow a dread to travel then refit for a different role...

If I was the fictional dread designer, I would of prioritized the fleet hanger over a ship maintenance bay.

Come on lads, sort it out.

CC

Actually, I think they can now? Packaged guns are only 1k m3 so you can bring out a few spare guns. There's just no bringing them back with you, they have to be disposable. Either that or you win the fight and bring in haulers to scoop your guns.


Meh used to do this with triage with burnt out reps

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble