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Citadel dps vs subcaps is terrible.
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helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-04-22 14:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Citadels wreck capital class ships.. that great ! but what about subcaps.

Ive been doing some testing and despite experimenting with numerous fitting combinations including the specific sub capital weapons, target painters and webs Ive yet to see how the citadels are going to do any meaningful damage to sub capitals that have even a handful of subcap t2 logistics as support.

Citadels just don't do enough damage to subcaps. and the citadel neuts are terrible as well vs subcaps.

And I can see this biting all the high secers and small wormhole corps hard.. Because they are going to put up their medium etc citadels and then someone is going to come along with 15 subcaps and wreck them. and the citadels owners are not going to be able to scratch the subcaps unless they have a comparable support fleet.

Im not saying 1 guy in a medium / large citadel should be able to easily destroy a logistic supported sub cap fleet but I feel the medium / large citadel owner should atleast be in with a fighting chance to defend his expensive citadel. Currently one person controlling guns in a POS can give a subcap fleet a very hard fight. For balance sake it should be the same in citadels.

TLDR. Citadel dps is terrible vs subcaps. CCP please buff citadel dps to subcaps.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
oResolution
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2016-04-22 19:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: oResolution
While I'll grant the missiles are a bit sub-par against heavy subcaps (especially small-sigged vessels like HACs and T2 Logi), a "handful of subcap t2 logistics" will stand little chance.

Take note of the scriptable ECM the citadel can equip: they have a jam strength of 30, which can be doubled to 60 with a racial script.
That's nearly an 80% chance to jam even a dual seboed Guardian.

If the enemy only has few logi, the citadel can jam them out, apply its paints and/or web in support, and start working through subcaps.

I also hope you didn't forget that the citadels can deploy fighters, which significantly improves their DPS vs subcaps (I'm looking at you Heavy Rocket Salvo).

With even a modest subcap fleet in support (which I'd expect a citadel owner who wishes to KEEP their citadel to be able to field) this is a huge advantage to the defenders, ESPECIALLY in hisec, where Capitals cannot be used for support or DPS.

All that said, though, I don't entirely disagree. Citadels subcap weapons could use a modest buff, probably to application.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#3 - 2016-04-23 03:22:06 UTC
oResolution wrote:
While I'll grant the missiles are a bit sub-par against heavy subcaps (especially small-sigged vessels like HACs and T2 Logi), a "handful of subcap t2 logistics" will stand little chance.

Take note of the scriptable ECM the citadel can equip: they have a jam strength of 30, which can be doubled to 60 with a racial script.
That's nearly an 80% chance to jam even a dual seboed Guardian.

If the enemy only has few logi, the citadel can jam them out, apply its paints and/or web in support, and start working through subcaps.

I also hope you didn't forget that the citadels can deploy fighters, which significantly improves their DPS vs subcaps (I'm looking at you Heavy Rocket Salvo).

With even a modest subcap fleet in support (which I'd expect a citadel owner who wishes to KEEP their citadel to be able to field) this is a huge advantage to the defenders, ESPECIALLY in hisec, where Capitals cannot be used for support or DPS.

All that said, though, I don't entirely disagree. Citadels subcap weapons could use a modest buff, probably to application.


not only that but citadels are just supposed to be a force multiplier to a fleet not fight for the fleet


also this is not the right place for this thread CCP has feed back threads in upcoming features and test server feadback

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
justin666
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2016-04-25 06:46:29 UTC
oResolution wrote:
While I'll grant the missiles are a bit sub-par against heavy subcaps (especially small-sigged vessels like HACs and T2 Logi), a "handful of subcap t2 logistics" will stand little chance.

Take note of the scriptable ECM the citadel can equip: they have a jam strength of 30, which can be doubled to 60 with a racial script.
That's nearly an 80% chance to jam even a dual seboed Guardian.

If the enemy only has few logi, the citadel can jam them out, apply its paints and/or web in support, and start working through subcaps.

I also hope you didn't forget that the citadels can deploy fighters, which significantly improves their DPS vs subcaps (I'm looking at you Heavy Rocket Salvo).

With even a modest subcap fleet in support (which I'd expect a citadel owner who wishes to KEEP their citadel to be able to field) this is a huge advantage to the defenders, ESPECIALLY in hisec, where Capitals cannot be used for support or DPS.

All that said, though, I don't entirely disagree. Citadels subcap weapons could use a modest buff, probably to application.


DUDE that is total rubbish.. One of my sivpuls was able to tank a keepstar when confiq to anti sub cap while double webbed and scrammed.. the citadels are sooooo bad v sub caps at the moment.. its a complete joke

You don't need logi to tank a anti sub cap citadel that is how bad they are
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#5 - 2016-04-25 11:34:26 UTC
This has been raised a number of times already. The Fighters can be ripped to pieces by T1 Destroyers and Cruisers since they don't get all the drone skill bonuses, (and if they do the skills needed to defend a Citadel are suddenly excessive since you would need fighter skills).
And what is left can be local tanked, heck it can be passive tanked with any passive shield fit.

Citadels in Highsec quite simply are not force multipliers with the current fittings. They are just expensive targets for anyone who feels like out blobbing your corp/alliance.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-04-25 15:37:48 UTC
So CCP adjusts triage by making capital reps useless when out of triage (forcing capital remote reps to use triage, meaning they cannot receive remote reps themselves) so that simply bringing a bigger remote rep blob won't prevent losses. A triage FAX in a giant blob will be as easy to kill as a single lonesome triage FAX. Citadels configured for anti-cap work can absolutely wreck FAXes without too much trouble. Yet I find it funny that CCP hasn't made any similar change to subcap logi - a fleet can just pile on the Scimitars and (except for being alpha'd) be able to tank any amount of DPS.

A force attacking a lone Large Citadel with dreads will lose ships. They'll bring down the Citadel, but at a cost.
A force attacking a lone Large Citadel with Abaddons and Guardians can probably do it without any losses at all.

I'd love to see CCP make a subcap triage module, except allow the subcap logi to still move and warp without penalty. But otherwise do the same thing as capital triage - remote reps useless when its not active, increased scan res, and unable to receive remote reps.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-04-26 04:28:06 UTC
oResolution wrote:


......Take note of the scriptable ECM the citadel can equip: they have a jam strength of 30, which can be doubled to 60 with a racial script.
That's nearly an 80% chance to jam even a dual seboed Guardian.

If the enemy only has few logi, the citadel can jam them out, apply its paints and/or web in support, and start working through subcaps.........
.


The citadels have capacitor and jams use up alot of cap. Your going to really struggle to perma-run those jams during the fight especially if your running webs and paints as well. If the citadel can be neuted then its even worse.


"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#8 - 2016-04-26 04:36:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
helana Tsero wrote:

The citadels have capacitor and jams use up alot of cap. Your going to really struggle to perma-run those jams during the fight especially if your running webs and paints as well. If the citadel can be neuted then its even worse.



With all.... Ummmm, 3 mid slots on a Med Citadel, or all 5 isn't it on an XL? So if you go a full jam set up you can jam out 3 to 5 sub cap logi some of the time. Depending on your size of Citadel. Of course, since you have no painter and no web, your missiles are now utterly worthless rather than mostly worthless and a T1 frigate can local tank you. Or you could use a T1 Ewar ship and get almost as much of a result.

Their defences in highsec are a joke, and they provide basically no force multiplication in that situation.
Obviously in low/null/wh's with the bomb launchers and other AOE effects you get better vs subcaps, but in highsec they are an outright joke. It's just about who has the bigger blob for a fleet. And in highsec that will almost always be the predator corps.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#9 - 2016-04-26 17:00:14 UTC
.... Cent you still have the whole wardec in highsec and General asshattery needed to knock them down.

If they just alpha'd subcaps they'd be op. The idea was to not mandate the need of dreads to knock them down.

Yaay!!!!
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#10 - 2016-04-26 20:30:12 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
.... Cent you still have the whole wardec in highsec and General asshattery needed to knock them down.

If they just alpha'd subcaps they'd be op. The idea was to not mandate the need of dreads to knock them down.

Go and actually test them, they put out 100-200 effective DPS from a M Citadel.
It can Web, Paint and Point 1 target which gets it to the 200 mark roughly speaking against a cruiser.

This is replacing a L Deathstar POS which can web, paint and point half a dozen targets, and apply thousands of DPS.

Sure you have the Capital launchers that do that much, but for highsec use they are a joke.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#11 - 2016-04-26 20:52:43 UTC
If a t1 cruiser can solo perma tank the thing then yes it's a problem. I don't agree that this thing needs to be some death star fu monster. Do I expect someone who is using the citadel to be able to kill a single cruiser, battlecruiser, battleship. Yea. A small gang... No.

I think people believe this thing should fk up everything that walks, but if a t1 cruiser is wrecking it then yea it could use some adjustment.

Yaay!!!!
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#12 - 2016-04-26 20:57:59 UTC
I'm expecting a bit more than you apparently. An M Citadel is meant to be a replacement for a L POS, which currently can stand off 5 or so of nearly any subcap happily if it's fully combat fit, and should act as a significant force multiplier against a larger force, say doubling the defenders effectiveness.
A L or XL Citadel should therefore be standing off significantly more.

The problem is because of the huge reduction in the number of targets that the Ewar can be applied to, and the massive subcap reduction it ends up that even an XL Citadel is going to struggle vs a cruiser on it's own. And they provide almost no force multiplication effects for the defending fleet.

Which means it's simply an n+2 equation for the attacker in highsec, (+1 + an extra 1 for the citadel :P)
And that is bad.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#13 - 2016-04-26 21:53:01 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
I'm expecting a bit more than you apparently. An M Citadel is meant to be a replacement for a L POS, which currently can stand off 5 or so of nearly any subcap happily if it's fully combat fit, and should act as a significant force multiplier against a larger force, say doubling the defenders effectiveness.
A L or XL Citadel should therefore be standing off significantly more.

The problem is because of the huge reduction in the number of targets that the Ewar can be applied to, and the massive subcap reduction it ends up that even an XL Citadel is going to struggle vs a cruiser on it's own. And they provide almost no force multiplication effects for the defending fleet.

Which means it's simply an n+2 equation for the attacker in highsec, (+1 + an extra 1 for the citadel :P)
And that is bad.


Completely agree. They really need to do more DPS to smaller ships.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#14 - 2016-04-26 22:20:25 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:

The citadels have capacitor and jams use up alot of cap. Your going to really struggle to perma-run those jams during the fight especially if your running webs and paints as well. If the citadel can be neuted then its even worse.


Yup. Even without being neuted, a medium citadel's scram+web+painter+ECM lasts 11 minutes if all four are active.

It only has 200K cap. They're immune to ECM but not cap warfare.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#15 - 2016-04-27 16:32:24 UTC
... And what do the fighters do? We're we basing this whole thing solely on the high slots?

Yaay!!!!
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#16 - 2016-04-27 18:46:34 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
... And what do the fighters do? We're we basing this whole thing solely on the high slots?

Launch from all over the citadel, fly slowly towards their target and die horribly because player skills don't affect them so they are fragile and have poor speed & DPS compared to what people think of fighters, and they have no DDA or FDU affecting them either or any other drone mods.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#17 - 2016-04-27 19:01:14 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
... And what do the fighters do? We're we basing this whole thing solely on the high slots?

Launch from all over the citadel, fly slowly towards their target and die horribly because player skills don't affect them so they are fragile and have poor speed & DPS compared to what people think of fighters, and they have no DDA or FDU affecting them either or any other drone mods.


So can you alpha a medium citadel with say what 15 tornadoes?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#18 - 2016-04-27 19:59:40 UTC
elitatwo wrote:

So can you alpha a medium citadel with say what 15 tornadoes?

DPS cap on Citadels means you can never alpha them, they will take at least 30 minutes to reinforce no matter what you bring.
So they'd be pretty hard to suicide gank. I suppose it's possible in a 0.5 if you keep pulling concord away but it'd get tricky to avoid the repair timer triggering.
But the M is childs play to reinforce if you don't have to worry about a defending fleet (Because you outnumber them 3 to 1 or whatever)
Unconspicous Alt
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2016-05-05 19:04:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Unconspicous Alt
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
not only that but citadels are just supposed to be a force multiplier to a fleet not fight for the fleet


A citadel is meant to replace a POS so, if manned, should be able to put up the same defense ( or more ) than a manned POS.

a large manned pos is deadly to any 10-subcap fleet. If you want to take down a 60-km structure you should be prepared to lose some ships.