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Reasons of torture
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Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#41 - 2016-04-19 17:52:18 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:

Meaning that, as I said, death is meaningless as there's an exact copy of you to continue to carry out the will of the original exactly as the original would have. Exact same person different body. If you are going to claim otherwise then you should treat each new clone as a separate person and give each one the respect you would to someone you just met. For example, if Priano were to die you shouldn't call her clone an honorless liar, as the clone is a different person.

If you were to copy a vagabond, would you expect to get a knight on a white horse as a result?

Makoto Priano was a dishonorable liar, why would you think her clones will be different? Maybe they aren't guilty in Makoto's misdeeds, but people shall know what kind of space trash they are dealing with.

We are our memories and personality, our bodies are just vessels to contain them. To borrow your example, if I were to copy a vagabond use the original to blow up a freighter full of civilians, get the original destroyed then ship into the vagabond copy, I would still be guilty of blowing up the freighter. Same person, different ship. When capsuleers die, same person different body. We are functionality immortal. Back to my original point, "Live by the sword, die by the sword" doesn't apply to us as we cannot die.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2016-04-20 00:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinjin Mokk
Claudia Osyn wrote:
We are our memories and personality, our bodies are just vessels to contain them. To borrow your example, if I were to copy a vagabond use the original to blow up a freighter full of civilians, get the original destroyed then ship into the vagabond copy, I would still be guilty of blowing up the freighter. Same person, different ship. When capsuleers die, same person different body. We are functionality immortal. Back to my original point, "Live by the sword, die by the sword" doesn't apply to us as we cannot die.



The biomass vats are full of Capsuleers who thought they couldn't die.

We can die. The circumstances are a bit trickier for our post-human selves than it is for baseline humanity, but we're far from immortal.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#43 - 2016-04-20 15:58:25 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
We are our memories and personality, our bodies are just vessels to contain them. To borrow your example, if I were to copy a vagabond use the original to blow up a freighter full of civilians, get the original destroyed then ship into the vagabond copy, I would still be guilty of blowing up the freighter. Same person, different ship. When capsuleers die, same person different body. We are functionality immortal. Back to my original point, "Live by the sword, die by the sword" doesn't apply to us as we cannot die.



The biomass vats are full of Capsuleers who thought they couldn't die.

We can die. The circumstances are a bit trickier for our post-human selves than it is for baseline humanity, but we're far from immortal.

I said functionality immortal.... I'm well aware that true immortality is a myth and nothing more. CONCORD could pull the plug on us at any time. But by conventional means, if we die we come back.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#44 - 2016-04-22 17:19:07 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Well, after being duly chastised by someone I actually like, in another thread, regarding my… lack of civility to Ms. Kim, I have decided to be nice.

So… I will answer your question regarding the use of torture as honestly as I may.

I have seen torture used.

Its viability as a means of coercion depends entirely upon the subject.

I don’t torture people.

I don’t think its… nice.

Denying that tortures are going on to hide them is helping torturers, and by this you torture people yourself indirectly, you are guilty as an associate.

Why then you do this if you think its... not nice? Would you like to admit yourself being... not nice?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#45 - 2016-04-23 10:48:39 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:

As for Nauplius, let us assume - for the sake of argument - that what you report as a message from Dauhagin is not some more of your twisted propaganda, but something he actually communicated. It is well known that people tortured and imprisoned beyond our comprehension may take on the beliefs and worldview of their oppressors. At the very least, it sometimes moderates the brutality by saying what their captor wants to hear. At the worst, torture and mind-destroying drugs will change the subject into something unrecognisable.

So, is this the reason why Caldari are being tortured by such inhuman methods in your prisons in Black Rise?

I'd prefer you to stop doing this, because I don't agree with your claim. I don't think that peoples that you torture will accept your beliefs and worldview. I am not going to show you in this conversation faults in your worldview, but I'd like to ask you the question: how many of these people, whom gallente torture, actually have accepted your worldview?

There are thousands of Caldari imprisoned and tortured daily by starvation and constant beating. Can you provide numbers of your "converts"? Or maybe request them from the Federation Navy?

I am asking this because I have personally dealt with peoples, saved from the gallente torturers. Nobody of them, absolutely no one was praising either chaos or democracy, nobody wanted to live in Federation. Most of them wanted just to go home...

Some of them, especially of Civire origin, have behaved quite opposite, they wanted to return to the war and even to "kill all the gallente". I tried to convince them that only those, who are personally guilty (e.g. in being occupants) shall be slaughtered, but they didn't want to hear anything. Where would they go now? To Dragonaurs? Are you happy with this, knowing that you are making people who want to slaughter you indiscriminately disregarding if you did something wrong or didn't?

Or maybe this approach works only on cattle like minmatars? Would Mr. Nauplius like to bring his statistics of converts, since he is known to torture minmatars like gallenteans torture Caldari?



You can torture me, Diana. :-) ♥

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#46 - 2016-04-23 12:18:36 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

You can torture me, Diana. :-) ♥

I am not a gallente, Mr. Wolfhammer.

I do not looking for my enemies to be tortured. I want them DEAD, and I want them to lose everything.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#47 - 2016-04-25 00:20:14 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Well, after being duly chastised by someone I actually like, in another thread, regarding my… lack of civility to Ms. Kim, I have decided to be nice.

So… I will answer your question regarding the use of torture as honestly as I may.

I have seen torture used.

Its viability as a means of coercion depends entirely upon the subject.

I don’t torture people.

I don’t think its… nice.

Denying that tortures are going on to hide them is helping torturers, and by this you torture people yourself indirectly, you are guilty as an associate.

Why then you do this if you think its... not nice? Would you like to admit yourself being... not nice?

My dear Ms. Kim.

Well I must confess that I am occasionally ‘not nice’, and the alleged torture of State prisoners of war, if it is happening would indeed ‘not be nice’.

But I think I will, just this once tell you the truth.

Cruelty is occasionally necessary, and torture may well fall under the category of ‘necessary cruelty’, if such is done for a justifiable purpose, and is for the well-being and security of the…state.

As with any weapon one must be careful in its use because this ‘immorality’ may lead to hatred, and hatred leads to additional threats against the… state.

Now whether torture falls under the ‘immorality’ category or ‘necessary evils’ category, I will leave to what remains of your conscious.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#48 - 2016-04-25 18:50:00 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:

Well I must confess that I am occasionally ‘not nice’, and the alleged torture of State prisoners of war, if it is happening would indeed ‘not be nice’.

You are not occasionally, you are not nice right now, since torture of State prisoners of war is NOT alleged, but it is FACTUAL. Your ignorance and disrespect to human lives is appalling.

I haven't seen gallentean propagandists more cruel than you, Syagrius. You will pay for your foul words.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#49 - 2016-04-26 15:07:49 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:

Well I must confess that I am occasionally ‘not nice’, and the alleged torture of State prisoners of war, if it is happening would indeed ‘not be nice’.

You are not occasionally, you are not nice right now, since torture of State prisoners of war is NOT alleged, but it is FACTUAL. Your ignorance and disrespect to human lives is appalling.

I haven't seen gallentean propagandists more cruel than you, Syagrius. You will pay for your foul words.

This coming from the woman who has repeatedly stated that the Amarrian's enslavement of my people is perfectly fine because it's part of their culture. Allow me to return the sentiment. Obviously it's perfectly fine for the Gallente to torture Caldari Navy personal, it's part of their culture. You Caldari should learn your place and accept it. Also, you're still lacking in concrete evidence I believe.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#50 - 2016-04-26 17:53:10 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:

Well I must confess that I am occasionally ‘not nice’, and the alleged torture of State prisoners of war, if it is happening would indeed ‘not be nice’.

You are not occasionally, you are not nice right now, since torture of State prisoners of war is NOT alleged, but it is FACTUAL. Your ignorance and disrespect to human lives is appalling.

I haven't seen gallentean propagandists more cruel than you, Syagrius. You will pay for your foul words.

This coming from the woman who has repeatedly stated that the Amarrian's enslavement of my people is perfectly fine because it's part of their culture. Allow me to return the sentiment. Obviously it's perfectly fine for the Gallente to torture Caldari Navy personal, it's part of their culture. You Caldari should learn your place and accept it. Also, you're still lacking in concrete evidence I believe.

You tribals have attacked the Empire out of nothing, you are criminals and filth of space, almost as disgusting as gallenteans... maybe not that much disgusting, but definitely more agressive and stupidier.

Our soldiers were just defending our territory from gallente occupants, unlike you, tribal scum, they didn't commit crimes. We employ professional soldiers, not like you, minmatars, who have these terrible Valklear units of pure criminal scum.

What is more funny, some of minmatar scum openly call themselves "Chaos fighters". You shall pray and kiss feet of your Amarr masters, minmatar. If I would be in their place, I wouldn't enslave you, I'd just get rid space from your disgusting presence.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#51 - 2016-04-26 18:04:00 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:

Well I must confess that I am occasionally ‘not nice’, and the alleged torture of State prisoners of war, if it is happening would indeed ‘not be nice’.

You are not occasionally, you are not nice right now, since torture of State prisoners of war is NOT alleged, but it is FACTUAL. Your ignorance and disrespect to human lives is appalling.

I haven't seen gallentean propagandists more cruel than you, Syagrius. You will pay for your foul words.

This coming from the woman who has repeatedly stated that the Amarrian's enslavement of my people is perfectly fine because it's part of their culture. Allow me to return the sentiment. Obviously it's perfectly fine for the Gallente to torture Caldari Navy personal, it's part of their culture. You Caldari should learn your place and accept it. Also, you're still lacking in concrete evidence I believe.

You tribals have attacked the Empire out of nothing, you are criminals and filth of space, almost as disgusting as gallenteans... maybe not that much disgusting, but definitely more agressive and stupidier.

Our soldiers were just defending our territory from gallente occupants, unlike you, tribal scum, they didn't commit crimes. We employ professional soldiers, not like you, minmatars, who have these terrible Valklear units of pure criminal scum.

What is more funny, some of minmatar scum openly call themselves "Chaos fighters". You shall pray and kiss feet of your Amarr masters, minmatar. If I would be in their place, I wouldn't enslave you, I'd just get rid space from your disgusting presence.
I'm going back to ignoring you. You apparently don't know what human rights are and therefore don't deserve them. While I feel disdain for any who would take the freedom of another, I would make an exception for the one who takes yours.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#52 - 2016-04-26 19:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Deitra Vess
Diana Kim wrote:

You tribals I have attacked the Empire Federation out of nothing, you are people like myself and I are criminals and filth of space, almost as disgusting as gallenteans our allies, the Amarr... maybe not that much disgusting, but definitely more agressive and stupidier.

Our soldiers were just defending our territory from gallente occupants freedom, because quite obviously we didn't learn about jumping on a good deal when it falls in our laps on our frigid ball of ice we call home, unlike you, tribal scum lovely tattooed gentleman, they didn't we very often commit crimes. We employ pretend to be professional soldiers, not like you, minmatars, who have these terrible simply wonderful Valklear units of pure criminal scum reformed criminals, a remarkable way to conduct capital punishment I must say.

What is more funny, some of minmatar scum those fine tattooed ladies and gentlemen openly call themselves ignore me and my simple rantings when I refer to them as "Chaos fighters". You shall pray and kiss feet of your Amarr masters I wonder when I can stop pretending to be loyal to Tibus Heth, minmatar. If I would be in their his place, I wouldn't enslave you, I don't think I can say here what I'd do. I'd just get rid space from your disgusting presence like to Invite you over for a plate of snails and see where the night takes us if you'd be interested in a bottle of Caille wine.


Fixed it for ya...

Roll
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#53 - 2016-04-26 19:33:35 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

You tribals I have attacked the Empire Federation out of nothing, you are people like myself and I are criminals and filth of space, almost as disgusting as gallenteans our allies, the Amarr... maybe not that much disgusting, but definitely more agressive and stupidier.

Our soldiers were just defending our territory from gallente occupants freedom, because quite obviously we didn't learn about jumping on a good deal when it falls in our laps on our frigid ball of ice we call home, unlike you, tribal scum lovely tattooed gentleman, they didn't we very often commit crimes. We employ pretend to be professional soldiers, not like you, minmatars, who have these terrible simply wonderful Valklear units of pure criminal scum reformed criminals, a remarkable way to conduct capital punishment I must say.

What is more funny, some of minmatar scum those fine tattooed ladies and gentlemen openly call themselves ignore me and my simple rantings when I refer to them as "Chaos fighters". You shall pray and kiss feet of your Amarr masters I wonder when I can stop pretending to be loyal to Tibus Heth, minmatar. If I would be in their his place, I wouldn't enslave you, I don't think I can say here what I'd do. I'd just get rid space from your disgusting presence like to Invite you over for a plate of snails and see where the night takes us if you'd be interested in a bottle of Caille wine.


Fixed it for ya...

Roll

Yes, thank you, I remembered why I preferred to avoid minmatar scum like you... For trolling by editing my replies with your sick delusions.

Don't put your idiocies into my replies, I am not as stupid as a tribal to say them.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#54 - 2016-04-26 19:45:22 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Yes, thank you, I remembered why I preferred to avoid minmatar scum like you... For trolling by editing my replies with your sick delusions.

Don't put your idiocies into my replies, I am not as stupid as a tribal to say them.

Well........

You verbally attack those who physically fight beside me. You really expect me not to chime in? If that's a question there's no wonder why you don't have people willing to advertise they support you. As for me, yes I most definitely will chime in for those with me.

My delusions maybe be just that, but they do seem to have hit a nerve. Why not tell us your true feelings on snails and wine, Heth, those you use your little "tribal scum" pet name on.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#55 - 2016-04-27 04:23:51 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Yes, thank you, I remembered why I preferred to avoid minmatar scum like you... For trolling by editing my replies with your sick delusions.

Don't put your idiocies into my replies, I am not as stupid as a tribal to say them.

Well........

You verbally attack those who physically fight beside me. You really expect me not to chime in? If that's a question there's no wonder why you don't have people willing to advertise they support you. As for me, yes I most definitely will chime in for those with me.

If you have to chime in, you could do it honorably, but not like a last forum troll by your idiotic attempt to replace my words with your delusions.

Deitra Vess wrote:
My delusions maybe be just that, but they do seem to have hit a nerve. Why not tell us your true feelings on snails and wine, Heth, those you use your little "tribal scum" pet name on.

I don't care about snails and wine. This stuff is insignificant.

What is significant is that you in discussion tried to replace my words with yours, and thus further discussion with you can't be profitable.


As for your tribal "friends", if they are these "Chaos fighters", well, I hope you burn in fire together with them... or no, I hope you actually will see them burning in fire first before your life will slip out of your useless body, minmatar.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#56 - 2016-04-27 04:38:03 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Yes, thank you, I remembered why I preferred to avoid minmatar scum like you... For trolling by editing my replies with your sick delusions.

Don't put your idiocies into my replies, I am not as stupid as a tribal to say them.

Well........

You verbally attack those who physically fight beside me. You really expect me not to chime in? If that's a question there's no wonder why you don't have people willing to advertise they support you. As for me, yes I most definitely will chime in for those with me.

If you have to chime in, you could do it honorably, but not like a last forum troll by your idiotic attempt to replace my words with your delusions.

Deitra Vess wrote:
My delusions maybe be just that, but they do seem to have hit a nerve. Why not tell us your true feelings on snails and wine, Heth, those you use your little "tribal scum" pet name on.

I don't care about snails and wine. This stuff is insignificant.

What is significant is that you in discussion tried to replace my words with yours, and thus further discussion with you can't be profitable.


As for your tribal "friends", if they are these "Chaos fighters", well, I hope you burn in fire together with them... or no, I hope you actually will see them burning in fire first before your life will slip out of your useless body, minmatar.

Plenty of burning in fire, plenty of toasting marshmallos on the wreaks on others... Kinda numb to the whole "Watching my friends burn" thing.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#57 - 2016-04-27 04:42:35 UTC
Could we Stop quoting her? it makes it hard to ignore that vile creature.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#58 - 2016-04-27 05:35:42 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

If you have to chime in, you could do it honorably, but not like a last forum troll by your idiotic attempt to replace my words with your delusions.

You know, a true warrior uses what they have at hand to strike their enemies, especially if it works efficiently. You attack my close allies, so I attacked back with the most effective weapon at hand. You blame me for knowing what essentially my enemy in this circumstance has as a weakness and exploiting it? Honor is wasted on stupidity as they say.... So looks like honors out of the itinerary for me towards you in this particular engagement.
Diana Kim wrote:

I don't care about snails and wine. This stuff is insignificant.

What is significant is that you in discussion tried to replace my words with yours, and thus further discussion with you can't be profitable.


As for your tribal "friends", if they are these "Chaos fighters", well, I hope you burn in fire together with them... or no, I hope you actually will see them burning in fire first before your life will slip out of your useless body, minmatar.

Just like your tortured Caldari POW buddies in that "freedom camp" when it blew up while you tried to free them right? Forgive me if I'm wrong on that, I don't recall your report on it from a while back word for word, but I do remember you referring to watching them either freeze, or burn due to the explosion or whatever.. Though I will say, my friends don't burn to death because I screwed up generally..... If you wish to refer to those who fly with me by your pet name, whatever. Does this mean I can refer to yours as Achuran Style bbqed Spare Ribs?

And again, you know where I am, feel free to stop by for a "chat."
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#59 - 2016-04-27 13:48:43 UTC
Ms. Vess, respectfully, could you maybe keep in mind that this is a public forum you're arguing in and maybe people other than Ms. Kim are going to read your posts?
Sinti Vailatti
Angelis Exploration
#60 - 2016-04-27 14:48:10 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

You tribals have attacked the Empire out of nothing, you are criminals and filth of space, almost as disgusting as gallenteans... maybe not that much disgusting, but definitely more agressive and stupidier.

Our soldiers were just defending our territory from gallente occupants, unlike you, tribal scum, they didn't commit crimes. We employ professional soldiers, not like you, minmatars, who have these terrible Valklear units of pure criminal scum.

What is more funny, some of minmatar scum openly call themselves "Chaos fighters". You shall pray and kiss feet of your Amarr masters, minmatar. If I would be in their place, I wouldn't enslave you, I'd just get rid space from your disgusting presence.



Wait, what?

You call us stupid, but you don't know the core reason for the war between the Matari and the Empire?

State soldiers and pilots don't commit crimes?

But Valklear are criminals?

Look sister, I have zero love for the Republic. But at least I can differentiate between Matari and Tribal Republicans. You need to learn the difference too, before you get on here and start bad-mouthing an entire race. Matari are everywhere. We fight for the Empire, we trade in Caldari. We shop in Gallente. We're Angels. We're Guristas. We're Bloodraiders and Sansha and Goons. We make your weapons, construct your ships, paint your pretty little rubber torpedoes. We're your MedBay staff and the people who make sure your clone activates. Don't. ****. Us. Off.

Not all Matari fight for the Republic. Just like not all Caldari are washed-up Provists chasing the Holy C*ck of Tibus Heth. Matari are not your enemy...yet...

“Where must we go...we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves?”