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Should there be better rewards for participating(but not winning) in PvP? And arenas maybe?
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Azahni Vah'nos
Vah'nos Family
#21 - 2011-12-18 05:19:15 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
While I am instinctively against an EVE arena situation (outside of R vs B which is player created) I will have to admit one thing.

If there were an avenue for your typical High Sec citizen to get their feet wet in combat with other players that didn't make them feel like a dunce, had plenty of potential for making a "name" for themselves, allowed them to gain a bit of confidence, and had a fairly low penalty for failure (various classes of ships allowed starting with cheap T1 frigs on up, and didn't risk their precious implants due to no podding), I think we might just see more people getting organized and getting serious about real PVP. Especially if there were prizes to be won.

To many the tactics and fits necessary for PVP are a mystery. Yes, they know how to outfit for a level 4 mission... but they know down deep they really don't know how to handle a serious combat situation against other players.

When you know you are a novice at something it's normal for most to avoid it (ego's are delicate), and get belligerent with anyone who talks about their skills in that area. An area system "could" break down some of those barriers and many people who would otherwise spend their entire EVE career avoiding combat may find they like (and have a knack) for it.

It would benefit carebear and PVP pilot alike, and I doubt it would irritate too many people IF it were implemented correctly.

While R vs B does a fine job, undoubtedly CCP could come up with a very EVEesque way to implement such a thing, with interesting features and battle area's (frigate asteroid field battle anyone?), clever restrictions on ship types available (Destroyer class only, no web or point, MWD mandatory, etc.).

Heck, entrants could even have access to their own version of a LP store, with access to unique modules, ships, paint jobs, created specifically to have advantages in or be unique to the arena environment.

Would there be interest? I think so, considering the success of R vs B, and how popular the alliance tournament is. I suppose watching the matches could even be a "channel" folks could watch on the vid screens in their CQ's (don't stone me Oops).

Yeah, I know EVE needs to be a harsh environment... but there is something to be said for encouraging new pilots to taste the PVP lifestyle. And there is certainly something to be said for raising the fun factor for everyone. So yes, if the right balance between brutality and crowd pleasing could be found I think I could be persuaded to give a thumbs up to gladiatorial combats in EVE.

These arena concepts can sound great on paper, it's just not the way they ever turn out. Start adding rewards to them and they tend to become little more than exercises in farming.

Another thing is that you will have the substandard players asking for ships and fittings to be nerfed because they couldn't win a one on one fight against every other ship in any given category. EVE has been setup as a fleet balanced game, not for individual bouts.

Arenas, etc are also detrimental to the overall PvP in a game because players tend to get their insta-fix of pvp'ing without going outside of the arenas/battlegrounds to find it.

And to the OP with the 'get rewarded just for showing up' ... look back at vanilla WoW when there used to be 30 out of 40 players standing in the starting cave for AV because they worked out that was a more efficient way to earn points. Shouldn't it be "to the victor go the spoils" as the saying goes, not "okay you tried, here's a cuddle and some points".

Overall if you want world PvP then you can't dilute that aspect of the game with arenas and battlegrounds. People are like water, they will always find the path of least resistance. Make arenas, battlegrounds, etc easier and/or more rewarding than world PvP and that's what people will gravitate to.

Nex (Cash Shop) / Aurum - removing sand from the sandbox since Incarna. Currently the only use for aurum is to buy virtual items in the in-game store, but Cockerill expects to expand its uses in the future.

Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2011-12-18 07:20:37 UTC
I agree EvE's pvp is corrupt.

Need an easily formed assault squad system. (like incrusion fleets, but without actual reqs and limits)

I play FPS and RTS to get player vs player fun. BF 3 and C&C - notable examples.

What eve needs is way to find random people to go for a certain objective. Incursions did unite people, but it also split them apart. Militias are good, but people aren't exactly random.

Gamespy Arcade handles it well - gamers come together, chat and set up game. More conveniently than through game interface.

Combat squads - any random corp member can join, fleet is set to blue but killing fleet members is disallowed. This fleet should be formed on the basis that people get safety from strangers within the fleet. I.e. good intentions. Half the time corporations are empty/asleep. Neutral fleets are hostile to newcomers and may gank you.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#23 - 2011-12-18 09:12:44 UTC
Like other say

EVE=SANDBOX=SANDBOX CANT BE REGULATED

Otherwise it wouldn't be called sandbox.

Or just take part in AT Blink

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2011-12-18 09:31:07 UTC
Riedle wrote:


Sorry son, no medals for losing.


Purple Hearts and posthumous Congressional Medals of Honor? :)
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2011-12-18 09:54:31 UTC

Quote:
These arena concepts can sound great on paper, it's just not the way they ever turn out. Start adding rewards to them and they tend to become little more than exercises in farming.


True. Any arena system or pvp participation reward definitely shouldn't be ISK or anything else easily trainable. In other games you just get a combination of bragging right rewards and sometimes items that make you better at that kind of pvp only.
Quote:

Another thing is that you will have the substandard players asking for ships and fittings to be nerfed because they couldn't win a one on one fight against every other ship in any given category. EVE has been setup as a fleet balanced game, not for individual bouts.


Yes because there's hardly any balance threads on the forums at the moment Roll
And it doesn't have to be 1v1. Of the games I mentioned in the OP, only one even *allows* rewards from 1v1 gameplay, duels are strictly for funsies.

Quote:

Arenas, etc are also detrimental to the overall PvP in a game because players tend to get their insta-fix of pvp'ing without going outside of the arenas/battlegrounds to find it.


This is likely to be the case, people do like easily arranged fair fights after all. If you wanted to avoid that, put a strict limit on how often people can participate. Once a day, once a week, something like that. If they want more, they can try and find it themselves.

Quote:
And to the OP with the 'get rewarded just for showing up' ... look back at vanilla WoW when there used to be 30 out of 40 players standing in the starting cave for AV because they worked out that was a more efficient way to earn points. Shouldn't it be "to the victor go the spoils" as the saying goes, not "okay you tried, here's a cuddle and some points".


I don't think it was just the points handed out for losing that caused AFKers in AV. You still get points for losing now but there's very little abuse. Probably because there's much faster ways to get good gear now by actively participating, so only people who *actually want to pvp* show up. The points are just an added bonus.
Quote:

Overall if you want world PvP then you can't dilute that aspect of the game with arenas and battlegrounds. People are like water, they will always find the path of least resistance. Make arenas, battlegrounds, etc easier and/or more rewarding than world PvP and that's what people will gravitate to.


It'd be easy to make it less rewarding than world pvp by disabling looting and adding an entry fee, as well as not making it available 23/7. But it doesn't speak well for world pvp if you think people would abandon it in a flash as soon as an alternative showed up. And there's also the question of how much bigger the pvp player pool might get if it was easier to get into casually. Any idea of CCP have ever published numbers on say the number of pilots with atleast half a dozen pvp kills?
The Archetect
Toxic Squadron
Northern Coalition.
#26 - 2011-12-18 10:05:50 UTC
Stolen Philosophy!!!!

- - -

Losing is fun!

Either way, it keeps you busy.

There is no internal end point, single goal, final Easter egg or "You Win!" announcement in Eve Online. Therefore, eventually, almost every ship will fall. The only ones that don't tend to be very conservative and very boring—and what fun is that? Therefore, Eve = losing /\ Eve = fun => losing = fun, and that's okay! It's a game philosophy, so embrace it, own it, and have fun with it!

- - -

Stolen from -

http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Losing

- - -

Also this....
http://df.magmawiki.com/images/4/40/FunComic.png
Simply because of how epic it is...
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#27 - 2011-12-18 10:17:18 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Like other say

EVE=SANDBOX=SANDBOX CANT BE REGULATED

Otherwise it wouldn't be called sandbox.

Or just take part in AT Blink


Of course the sandbox has boundaries, set by CCP.

What you are describing is a desert. Smile

As great as EVE is it didn't just spring forth fully formed from the loins of Zeus.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#28 - 2011-12-18 10:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Azahni Vah'nos wrote:

These arena concepts can sound great on paper, it's just not the way they ever turn out. Start adding rewards to them and they tend to become little more than exercises in farming.

Another thing is that you will have the substandard players asking for ships and fittings to be nerfed because they couldn't win a one on one fight against every other ship in any given category. EVE has been setup as a fleet balanced game, not for individual bouts.

Arenas, etc are also detrimental to the overall PvP in a game because players tend to get their insta-fix of pvp'ing without going outside of the arenas/battlegrounds to find it.

And to the OP with the 'get rewarded just for showing up' ... look back at vanilla WoW when there used to be 30 out of 40 players standing in the starting cave for AV because they worked out that was a more efficient way to earn points. Shouldn't it be "to the victor go the spoils" as the saying goes, not "okay you tried, here's a cuddle and some points".

Overall if you want world PvP then you can't dilute that aspect of the game with arenas and battlegrounds. People are like water, they will always find the path of least resistance. Make arenas, battlegrounds, etc easier and/or more rewarding than world PvP and that's what people will gravitate to.




You may have a good point about the rewards, perhaps limit those rewards to medals... medals that have meaning.
On the other hand private PVP tournaments that do have rewards, or the AT, haven't been farmed (rigged yes, but not farmed Smile)

Matches would likely be team affairs, possibly with a point system like the AT. That part would have to be coded into the game so the participants in the various matches simply wouldn't be allowed into the "arena" if they had an non-allowed ship or module. Similar to how acceleration gates in missions work now.

If people find these simple arena matches more entertaining than traditional PVP, with nothing more than a medal to be gained, there is something seriously wrong with PVP. No, I think you'll find more than a few vets dabbling in it for fun but mostly it will be people that want to try it without the immense pressure and preparation that goes into a normal fleet op or roam. It would be a place to learn, get over those initial jitters, and build confidence to dive into the deep end of the pool.

I can't say I'm a fan of getting a reward "just for showing up", however a point/ranking system that does allow some points for participation wouldn't be out of line.

The universe of EVE is already "diluted" with similar events. Obviously the AT, the ever popular R vs. B bouts, and numerous private tournaments occur every day without harming PVP in EVE. The problem is, out of those 3 the only one that allows you to compete and represent your corp are the private tournaments (in AT you need to be a member of an alliance, and you have to join the corps in R vs B to participate in that).

Practically speaking these events would probably need to be instanced, which opens a whole 'nother can of worms. I'm not a fan of any part of EVE being instanced, but it would likely be the only way to keep the matches free from interference. Perhaps the neatest solution possible would be to present these matches as if they are being done in a "simulator"... more or less a very high tech mini game.

Smile Games within games... only in EVE my friends, only in EVE.

EDIT: It occurs to me that if you presented this as a "simulator" mini game, where the participants need to buy specific virtual ships (lol) and equipment to participate, you could do some interesting things you can not currently do in regular EVE.

New ships (or variants of current ships) with very strictly regulated capabilities to preserve balance in the point system used to create your team.

Heck, you could even have a division where the participants flew fighter or fighter bomber variants (and who wouldn't want to pilot one of those excellent designs).

It would also neatly deal with the whole "I don't want to be podded" thing. In this virtual game (within a virtual game) it simply doesn't matter if you die as the match just... ends.

Amusing.....

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#29 - 2011-12-18 11:01:11 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

As great as EVE is it didn't just spring forth fully formed from the loins of Hillmar.


Fixed that for yah.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Dr Karsun
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
#30 - 2011-12-18 11:18:42 UTC
In eve pvp actually has a wide impact. Especially in roams, winning a single small engagement can create a butterfly effect and make someone else lose or win a battle thanks to that. Maybe your 20 man gang just ran into reinforcements of another gang and tore them to shreds making them not only lose the battle to you but also the battle 2 jumps away that you didn't even know about?

Yes I know that the butterfly effect should make a huge impact very far away, but I hope you know the analogy.

PVP is not really rewarding via isk or killmails if you lose, that's true. But the engagement can be really amazing by it self, the fight rather than the consequence. And the losers get to learn a bit more than winners, since winners just won and losers need to look what they did wrong and re-think their tactics. The losers can then come back and smash their enemies heads against the walls of their pods.

PVP in eve is almost never lucrative (excpet suicide ganks). It's about causing the loss on the enemy side, not about your gain. The only exception except suicide ganks is when you have sov warfare when you can win a system / moons / an outpost. Most of the time it's not about that.

"Have you had your morning coffee?" -> the Coffee Lovers Brewing Club is recruiting! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=363976#post363976
Waukesha
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2011-12-18 11:28:56 UTC
Takseen wrote:
I was thinking about this recently over the last week or so. In terms of pvp gaming, last week I've

-done a nullsec roam in a stealth bomber without actually ever engaging anything

-played CoD:Modern Warfare 3 for a bit and ended up 2nd to last on pretty much every round




Maybe you just suck at pvp games. Try single player.
Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpaid Tactical Team
#32 - 2011-12-18 12:31:57 UTC
Nope. This isn't elementary school. You do not get a trophy for coming in last.
Ira Theos
#33 - 2011-12-18 16:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ira Theos
EVE = Requirement of 1000 people to screw in a light bulb = War of the RMT Blobs = BOREDOM SUPREME !


(So why am I still here? Because PLEX can be bought with isk and I don't sell isk for real cash, unlike many of the RMT Plantations in Zero.)

EVE (sigh)

What amazing potential, what a shameful waste of concept, what a sad state of design.

Truly sad.
Alec Freeman
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2011-12-18 17:01:37 UTC
Spoiler Alert: Since you obviously havnt left primary school yet ill have to break this too you. Everyone is not a winner. The world is a harsh ****** place. Eve mimic this world. Without losing there would be no compitition. Without compitition there would be no game.
EmmaFromMarketing
Prospect Theory
#35 - 2011-12-18 18:09:59 UTC
OP:

there are a couple of things you can do without any changes required to EVE

1. jump on the test server, ask for fights

2. start a corp of like-minded people and run your own in-corp tournaments

Heck you can even just run along to the nearest trade hub and look for those 1v1 cans outside the station.
Nullbeard Rager
Doomheim
#36 - 2011-12-18 19:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nullbeard Rager
Alec Freeman wrote:
Spoiler Alert: Since you obviously havnt left primary school yet ill have to break this too you. Everyone is not a winner. The world is a harsh ****** place. Eve mimic this world. Without losing there would be no compitition. Without compitition there would be no game.


Spoiler Alert: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHALolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLolLol

There is ZERO risk in EVE, as in zip, nada.

NOTHING in EVE can't be repaired with time except reputation.

In real life people people die once. They get fined, incarcerated, beaten and killed for what they do in EVE on a daily basis with impunity.

Fear controls many people's behavior and there is NOTHING to fear in EVE.

EVE mimics almost NOTHING about the harsh realities of real life.

Field of Trolls:  "If you chum it, they will come."
ObieWan Kenobieie
Galactic Masonry MGZ
#37 - 2011-12-18 19:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: ObieWan Kenobieie
would a alliance football system work in eve? ( not a replacement.....don't go pissing yourselves....)

This would be in o.o space.

An alliance of 10 corps made of players (non-industry/bears/etc) corps would fight eachother like football teams fight...winner moves on to the next team (corp) This would take some structure. People would have to register into teams etc.

This would happen within an alliance, after that you could have away game where stain fights goons or whatever.

fights would be dependable instead of tedious roaming through bear country.

The most fun pvp I've had is Day of defeat on steam. lots of laughs and a great way to blow some steam.

Nothing will replace the inherent pvp presence in eve, but there is room for different flavors of it. FW/0.0/worm-hole pvp/etc.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2011-12-18 20:19:59 UTC
Waukesha wrote:
Takseen wrote:
I was thinking about this recently over the last week or so. In terms of pvp gaming, last week I've

-done a nullsec roam in a stealth bomber without actually ever engaging anything

-played CoD:Modern Warfare 3 for a bit and ended up 2nd to last on pretty much every round



Maybe you just suck at pvp games. Try single player.


Yes indeed that's the point, I *do* suck at pvp games. And yet I still engage in them and enjoy it much more in other genres, to the benefits of everyone else in the system. I'm happy to pad kill stats for MW3's more skilled players, prop up the top end of the SC2 ladder system by hanging out in Gold league, and keep the pvp battlegrounds active. Because in all 3 cases I'm guaranteed a fair fight and a token reward even if I don't excel in the game.

Having said that I suspect my opinions are in the minority so I wouldn't really expect any changes to be made. People seem content to have more meaningful(IE expensive and time consuming) pvp in exchange for a smaller participation rate. The fact that the MMO still has any amount of world pvp at all is quite impressive, its not a commonly supported feature these days.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2011-12-18 20:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Azahni Vah'nos wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I support arena but only like dating a fat chick. Sure, she's a great f*** but, I don't want my friends to know.


These arena concepts can sound great on paper, it's just not the way they ever turn out. Start adding rewards to them and they tend to become little more than exercises in farming.

Another thing is that you will have the substandard players asking for ships and fittings to be nerfed because they couldn't win a one on one fight against every other ship in any given category. EVE has been setup as a fleet balanced game, not for individual bouts.

Arenas, etc are also detrimental to the overall PvP in a game because players tend to get their insta-fix of pvp'ing without going outside of the arenas/battlegrounds to find it.

And to the OP with the 'get rewarded just for showing up' ... look back at vanilla WoW when there used to be 30 out of 40 players standing in the starting cave for AV because they worked out that was a more efficient way to earn points. Shouldn't it be "to the victor go the spoils" as the saying goes, not "okay you tried, here's a cuddle and some points".

Overall if you want world PvP then you can't dilute that aspect of the game with arenas and battlegrounds. People are like water, they will always find the path of least resistance. Make arenas, battlegrounds, etc easier and/or more rewarding than world PvP and that's what people will gravitate to.



I'll push this a step farther. I don't like the term "arena". I prefer "instant action". Arena sounds like a competition with a successive series of matches to reach a final champion. "Instant action" to me means a way for players to get some action with no reward system, no competitive series of matches. You get in, you get out, you're done. I don't think there should be tangible rewards. The reward of such a system is the lack of risk and penalty. Any system with tangible rewards will lead to only one thing....exploitation.

Without getting into too much detail, CCP could capitalize on such a system by requiring minimal amounts of aurum varying in amounts depending on what you want to fly. Then the system pits pilots against each other based on certain criteria. Viola! Instant action!

In this way the instant action doesn't detract from the more tangible in game PVP.

Don't ban me, bro!
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2011-12-18 20:35:07 UTC
Nah because 1v1 battles are already available to whoever wants one.