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Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1821 - 2016-04-17 08:45:50 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

No. I am saying that getting 10,000 free SP just for playing my way, each day, is nice with me. It's literally money for nothing for me. I mean, I even shoot rats in belts while mining. I rarely log off without killing a NPC. And now CCP wants to give me 10,000 free SP each day for it? Bring it on!

Dailies are not about EVE being fun. They're a bribe to bear with how unfun it is. It's like saying "here, have unlimited coffee while you eat our poorly done breakfast".

That's like mouse eating a cactus gets a "attaboy" every time it's done eating. Why are you doing what you explicitly characterized as "not fun and poorly done"?Lol


Because I've find my way to enjoy it, with occasional breaks to play funnier but less engaging int he logn run purely PvP games. I started multiplaying online for PvP, and EVE is the only game where I've never done PvP. And that's because of the so vaunted "meaningfulness".

EVE's PvP is so meaningful that I avoid it for my own good. This leaves me with PvE, which I wish was a way to PvP by other means rather than be an exercise in "press buton, get bacon, figure what to do with all that effin' bacon until you're so tired of bacon that you need some real fun for a change".

The real thing is that I don't need no effin' SP, no effin' ISK, no effin' nothing more from EVE. All I need is know that the old button will be there when I figure another different way to use all that stupid bacon. Now, with extra SP.



Just how long have you been playing eve and not liking it it while you wait for it to turn into another game?


Just before this thread wanders off... oh wait.

Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Before the thread wanders off, I will try to abridge my "agenda" in few words.

EVE population is going down because loses more players than earns. The main source of lost players is PvE, which is both the most popular specialization and the one with poorest retention. Poor retention is caused by the limited nature of PvE content and the lack of socialization. Socialization can't be adressed since players who play alone have reasons to do so. The PvE content is limited because it is created by CCP and consumed passively by players. To extend PvE content and keep PvE players interested, PvE content must be generated by players.Thus PvE needs the abbility to inlfuence other players. That will increase the retention of PvE players by giving them continuously fresh PvE content. That increase in retention will be boosted by how the new gameplay can also gain players uninterested in the existing gameplay.

Must be noted that this only plugs the PvE hole. PvP also haves its own issues (specially in nullsec), but then, PvP is not my trade in EVE.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#1822 - 2016-04-17 08:50:15 UTC
So riddle me this.

You told me that my opinion doesn't matter because I PvP. And now you expect me to take your opinion seriously.

No. Just no.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1823 - 2016-04-17 09:05:23 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Well, it's always like this, some lad who thinks he's the Archbishop of Banterbury proper comes along and starts posting like a right tone-deaf crotch dragon, telling you off for doing something ingame... nothing you can do but make yourself a cuppa and nod.


It was you who stated that people would leave if PvE was improved even by something as tiny as a daily reward:

Ria Nieyli wrote:
And then people will leave. It's just how it works when you alter the product away from what your core userbase likes in it.


People are leaving because the core userbase is being backburned in favor of PvP content which only helps a small part of the userbase.

As I said, PvP may be the brand, but the product is PvE. So maybe dailies tarnish the brand but they will help the product a tiny bit.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#1824 - 2016-04-17 09:09:42 UTC
Let me paraphrase. You chaffed out that right load of bollocks already. It's too late to say anything. You're dead to me now.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1825 - 2016-04-17 09:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Ria Nieyli wrote:
So riddle me this.

You told me that my opinion doesn't matter because I PvP. And now you expect me to take your opinion seriously.

No. Just no.


No. I told you to stop being arrogant as you are wrong to think that PvP is the core of the game and improving PvE is detrimental to EVE because "moves the product away from the core userbase".

Frankly, I am still struggling with the impression that PvPrs are just crying because someone got a toy and it's not them for a change. I wonder how many would be silent if there was a equivalent SP reward for the first PvP kill of the day, even as it is so easily exploitable that CCP noticed.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1826 - 2016-04-17 09:22:19 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Let me paraphrase. You chaffed out that right load of bollocks already. It's too late to say anything. You're dead to me now.


I think there's been some misunderstanding somewhere and I would rather be in good terms with a fellow LAGLer, but sometimes I just happen to offend or harm people for reasons I don't understand. So will just stop this here. I am sincerely worried to have hurt you over this, so if that is the case, be assured that it was not my intent.
Erihn Sabrovich
#1827 - 2016-04-17 10:36:48 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
lol that's the problem no one or at least not enough will leave and ccp know this


Really? Why do you think there has been a decline in the recent years then?


- New players are more looking for F2P now... EVE still requires to buy the game and pay monthly which is becoming unpopular... Even games like Lineage 2 and Everquest switched to F2P model !!!
- Not enough new content... Thinking that wars and other PvP actions is new content is delusion... New content is new ships (allowing new strategies, new fits, ...), new missions, new modules, ... Citadels are new content and made many corp team to gather the ressources to build their own for example... POCO in HS were the same... But new content is very scarse leading to some burn out...
- People getting older... getting married, having children, more responsibilities at work, ... leading to less time to play
- Real world crisis... more and more people have to cut their expenses... which includes pay to play online games
- New game genre attracting people : although not new in Japan, we see more people getting interrested in Visual Novels in Europe and US, MOBA (DOTA 2, LoL, HotS, ...) are grabbing more and more players, ... times change and gamers interests change too.

and so on...
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#1828 - 2016-04-17 10:53:39 UTC
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:

- People getting older... getting married, having children, more responsibilities at work, ... leading to less time to play


Ohh yay, lets **** off these players by making them log in each day.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Erihn Sabrovich
#1829 - 2016-04-17 11:20:09 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
So riddle me this.

You told me that my opinion doesn't matter because I PvP. And now you expect me to take your opinion seriously.

No. Just no.


Somehow, it's not far related to reality...

EVE has a PvE problem... not a PvP one... So, as you're PvP, you are probably not conscious about the PvE situation well...

Don't forget that PvP players are leeching on the PvE work : miners, explorers, industrials, ... Without them, you'd not be able to buy your ships, modules, ammunitions, ...

You like to call PvE players "carebears" and to feel superior... but they are far more important than yourself for the survivability of the game... Without PvP, EVE could go on. Without PvE, EVE is dead !!!

And SP is something which is lacking to many PvE players... You may go PvP with a simple frigate but to be able to do something of value PvE-wise, you need bigger ships... Mining with a Venture takes ages... Reprocessing takes month of training... Exploration may also be quite needy... And I strongly doubt that you'd be able to do L3-L4 missions with a Frigate...



Dailies may not be the answer (I think that Rift-like events would be more adapted to bring fun in EVE's world)... but there is a need to bring things to PvE players...
Erihn Sabrovich
#1830 - 2016-04-17 11:22:53 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:

- People getting older... getting married, having children, more responsibilities at work, ... leading to less time to play


Ohh yay, lets **** off these players by making them log in each day.


Less time to play usually leads to playing casual games instead of games like MMO which require huge investisement in time. So these are lost anyway...
Eli Porter
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1831 - 2016-04-17 11:27:16 UTC
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:

- People getting older... getting married, having children, more responsibilities at work, ... leading to less time to play


Ohh yay, lets **** off these players by making them log in each day.


Less time to play usually leads to playing casual games instead of games like MMO which require huge investisement in time. So these are lost anyway...


EVE doesn't require a huge investment in time. I log in a few times a week for scheduled fleet content and fun roams, that's pretty much it.
Erihn Sabrovich
#1832 - 2016-04-17 11:39:18 UTC
Eli Porter wrote:
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:

- People getting older... getting married, having children, more responsibilities at work, ... leading to less time to play


Ohh yay, lets **** off these players by making them log in each day.


Less time to play usually leads to playing casual games instead of games like MMO which require huge investisement in time. So these are lost anyway...


EVE doesn't require a huge investment in time. I log in a few times a week for scheduled fleet content and fun roams, that's pretty much it.


- Scheduled
- a few times a week
- fun roams

You said it all
- you don't chose the times, they are scheduled
- casual players sometimes stay 1-2 weeks without playing...
- roams means that you're logged-in for more than 1/2h

Casual gaming is about
- playing when you've time to do it
- being able to stop immediately without consequence (if the baby is crying, you should be able to be immediately AFK for unknown time for example)
- being able to play for length as small as 10-15 minutes
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1833 - 2016-04-17 11:45:50 UTC
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:


Don't forget that PvP players are leeching on the PvE work : miners, explorers, industrials, ... Without them, you'd not be able to buy your ships, modules, ammunitions, ...

You like to call PvE players "carebears" and to feel superior... but they are far more important than yourself for the survivability of the game... Without PvP, EVE could go on. Without PvE, EVE is dead !!!



Actually both types of players are pretty valuable, and are interconnected. Extra credits have made these interesting episodes about player types and how they affect each other, and how they help make balance in a MMOs. Sure it is little bit exaggerated, but I find the general ideas interesting.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1834 - 2016-04-17 11:57:43 UTC
Eve doesn't fit in today. There is no problem with huge time consuming games as WOW and other are showing. There are also no problems with hard games, Dark Souls is selling really good. There are also no problems with complex games as simulations always sell fine.

Eve's problem is, that is has huge problems breaking down the complex contend to easy manageable levels. First and most prominent example is the fitting window. But it goes on and on. If you are not careful you can "optimize" the mission goals out of the overview. You have to carefully check the overview to find you mission goals. An automated overview that shows mission specific things while you are doing missions and showing astroids when you are in a mining barge in a belt? A structured overview of your PI`s? A warning when the extractor timer runs out or a storage fills up? Bookmarks on the map? Quickbuttons on the map to show your favorite settings? .........

EVE has an UI Problem. Excel in Space really hits it. Customizing the overview, one of the central information tools, is more an art then anything else. Choosing modules is a pain cause you have to klick each one to see the exakt values etc....

There is nothing wrong with the game mechanics but the access is unnecessarily difficult. THATS Eves problem. People want deep gameplay but please with an easy access interface.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1835 - 2016-04-17 12:03:25 UTC
Geronimo McVain wrote:
Eve doesn't fit in today. There is no problem with huge time consuming games as WOW and other are showing. There are also no problems with hard games, Dark Souls is selling really good. There are also no problems with complex games as simulations always sell fine.

Eve's problem is, that is has huge problems breaking down the complex contend to easy manageable levels. First and most prominent example is the fitting window. But it goes on and on. If you are not careful you can "optimize" the mission goals out of the overview. You have to carefully check the overview to find you mission goals. An automated overview that shows mission specific things while you are doing missions and showing astroids when you are in a mining barge in a belt? A structured overview of your PI`s? A warning when the extractor timer runs out or a storage fills up? Bookmarks on the map? Quickbuttons on the map to show your favorite settings? .........

EVE has an UI Problem. Excel in Space really hits it. Customizing the overview, one of the central information tools, is more an art then anything else. Choosing modules is a pain cause you have to klick each one to see the exakt values etc....

There is nothing wrong with the game mechanics but the access is unnecessarily difficult. THATS Eves problem. People want deep gameplay but please with an easy access interface.


And it's something dailies will not solve


Maybe if ccp could give us am update on ghost fitting that seems to have been abandoned

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Erihn Sabrovich
#1836 - 2016-04-17 12:07:23 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:


Don't forget that PvP players are leeching on the PvE work : miners, explorers, industrials, ... Without them, you'd not be able to buy your ships, modules, ammunitions, ...

You like to call PvE players "carebears" and to feel superior... but they are far more important than yourself for the survivability of the game... Without PvP, EVE could go on. Without PvE, EVE is dead !!!



Actually both types of players are pretty valuable, and are interconnected. Extra credits have made these interesting episodes about player types and how they affect each other, and how they help make balance in a MMOs. Sure it is little bit exaggerated, but I find the general ideas interesting.


What I meant is not about the balance on the 4 kind of players but something directly linked to EVE mechanics :

Nearly every thing that you can use has to be built by players or farmed by players


If we take the amount of "stuff" (ships, modules, ammunitions), most PvE players are CREATING stuff while PvP players are destroying it.

There is a small drain present in PvE... you may lose your ship to NPC, when you reprocess something, some of the materials is lost, ... That drain may easily be increased (more difficult missions for example). And you find a big drain in PvP (each kill result in most of the stuff lost).

But, as far as "stuff" creation exists it's nearly only on the PvE side. PvP *MAY* get some LP which allow to buy some things from NPC but this is quire marginal... On the other side, Miners (ore), industrials (ships, modules,...), explorers (datacores, salvage, ...), missionners (ships, modules, LP, salvage) bring lots of new "stuff".

If you remove the PvP (or strongly deacrease it), there will still be drains (and these may be made stronger) on the PvE side... but if you remove the PvE side, stuff in EVE will quickly be destroyed and EVE economy reach a stop.

This is a consequence of the "everything is built by players" stance... And introducing NPC shops for every single module and ship would probably kill EVE quickly too...
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#1837 - 2016-04-17 12:16:14 UTC
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:
Eli Porter wrote:
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:

- People getting older... getting married, having children, more responsibilities at work, ... leading to less time to play


Ohh yay, lets **** off these players by making them log in each day.


Less time to play usually leads to playing casual games instead of games like MMO which require huge investisement in time. So these are lost anyway...


EVE doesn't require a huge investment in time. I log in a few times a week for scheduled fleet content and fun roams, that's pretty much it.


- Scheduled
- a few times a week
- fun roams

You said it all
- you don't chose the times, they are scheduled
- casual players sometimes stay 1-2 weeks without playing...
- roams means that you're logged-in for more than 1/2h

Casual gaming is about
- playing when you've time to do it
- being able to stop immediately without consequence (if the baby is crying, you should be able to be immediately AFK for unknown time for example)
- being able to play for length as small as 10-15 minutes



You are aware that the typical EVE players are much older than many other MMOs/games? I know plenty of people who plays EVE once in a while when they can set aside a few hours for roaming or other activities. In my previous corp (Matari Exodus) we typically arranged 2-3 days each week where most of us could play and went roaming there. And the rest of the days we didn't have to think about EVE. So that was indeed Scheduled, a few times a week, AND fun roams. And we still had what I would call a casual approach to it despite not living up to your arbitrary list about casual gaming.

Many people have the illusion that you have to sink countless of hours into EVE in order to achieve anything but the truth is that if you are good at planing and managing your ingame activities you can get far without having to log in that often. And there are plenty of playstyles that can allow you this.

The SP system itself is one of the things that makes EVE a suitable game for people who can't put in that many hours. You will still progress even when you aren't logged in. Sure, a player with plenty of game hours per week will be able to farm more isk, but he will most likely also spend more of it since he will roam more as well.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#1838 - 2016-04-17 12:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mizhara Del'thul
If you think industry and trade is anything but PvP, you've kind of missed the point of how Eve works.

Edit: Hurr, ninja'd.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1839 - 2016-04-17 12:20:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:
sero Hita wrote:
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:


Don't forget that PvP players are leeching on the PvE work : miners, explorers, industrials, ... Without them, you'd not be able to buy your ships, modules, ammunitions, ...

You like to call PvE players "carebears" and to feel superior... but they are far more important than yourself for the survivability of the game... Without PvP, EVE could go on. Without PvE, EVE is dead !!!



Actually both types of players are pretty valuable, and are interconnected. Extra credits have made these interesting episodes about player types and how they affect each other, and how they help make balance in a MMOs. Sure it is little bit exaggerated, but I find the general ideas interesting.


What I meant is not about the balance on the 4 kind of players but something directly linked to EVE mechanics :

Nearly every thing that you can use has to be built by players or farmed by players


If we take the amount of "stuff" (ships, modules, ammunitions), most PvE players are CREATING stuff while PvP players are destroying it.

There is a small drain present in PvE... you may lose your ship to NPC, when you reprocess something, some of the materials is lost, ... That drain may easily be increased (more difficult missions for example). And you find a big drain in PvP (each kill result in most of the stuff lost).

But, as far as "stuff" creation exists it's nearly only on the PvE side. PvP *MAY* get some LP which allow to buy some things from NPC but this is quire marginal... On the other side, Miners (ore), industrials (ships, modules,...), explorers (datacores, salvage, ...), missionners (ships, modules, LP, salvage) bring lots of new "stuff".

If you remove the PvP (or strongly deacrease it), there will still be drains (and these may be made stronger) on the PvE side... but if you remove the PvE side, stuff in EVE will quickly be destroyed and EVE economy reach a stop.

This is a consequence of the "everything is built by players" stance... And introducing NPC shops for every single module and ship would probably kill EVE quickly too...


I really don't understand this artifisial divided between pvp and pve everything in eve is a form of pvp. There is no one who actively plays eve that does not take part in pvp. Ship on ship pvp is also needed to add value to non combat parts of eve.


But anyway none of this pvp vs pve thing has anything to do with dailies they ate bad for both

Same with the new player vs old player argument

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Erihn Sabrovich
#1840 - 2016-04-17 12:31:56 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

I really don't understand this artifisial divided between pvp and pve everything in eve is a form of pvp. There is no one who actively plays eve that does not take part in pvp. Ship on ship pvp is also needed to add value to non combat parts of eve.


But anyway none of this pvp vs pve thing has anything to do with dailies they ate bad for both

Same with the new player vs old player argument


Well, it was initially as an answer to someone who was arguing about it's PvP status affecting the meaningfulness of it's position.

It's true that trading may be felt like some sort of "PvP"... but here, it's only word-play... PvP in EVE is when several player-owned ships fight each other.

What makes EVE unique is the fact that it's economy is fully player-driven... You can find lots of PvP games but most/none of them has that "all created by player" stance...

And many PvP players feel superior to PvE players, calling them carebears and such...

To PvE-players, amount of SP is more critical than to PvP-players. As it has been pointed quite often by many people, you can PvP efficiently with low-cost, low-skill ships... And it'll be as fun as with other bigger ships as you choose target of the same size-range...

But for PvE, SP are the key to new content (higher level missions, T2 production rentability, ...) More SP is much more important to PvE players... And these "dailies" will profit them the most... And for many PvE players, the goal of these dailies is something that they do anyway (miners, missionners, combat-exploration).

This is a fact that is overlooked by most of the people who are having a tantrum about these dailies...