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First post
Author
Lugh Crow-Slave
#801 - 2016-04-10 16:08:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Eve in four years

Log in

Kill 5 rats

Mine 13000 veld

Build 10 frigs

Hack 4 relic cans

Hack 4 data cans

"Hay we are forming a team for arena you in? "

"Nah I still need to finish 3 security missions and enter 5 wormholes then I think I'll log"
Zoltan Cole
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#802 - 2016-04-10 16:13:17 UTC
Krevnos wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:
All they have to do is give multiple options in the daily list that cover all aspects of the game, that you would probably be doing any way if you undock, and the problem is solved. Killing a rat was mentioned in the OP, I'm sure they have more to the system than that sole activity.


Really?? How long have you been playing Eve?

Shall we go through a list of just a few instances where CCP has failed to expand adequately on features?:

Walking in stations (introduced as a half-baked feature, stayed that way)

Drifters (gameplay never evolved)

Null sec escalation complexes (many were missing for 8 years, some still aren't right)

Ghost Fitting (never actually made it to server)

The Rorqual (LOL)

The Certificates system (useless feature at best and down-right misleading at worst)

New camera (still disgusting, most have switched it off and switch it off again every time CCP switches it on for us after a patch)

The second generation launcher (it was so bad many players never switched from the legacy one). We have now moved the the third generation one.

New probe scanner (still inferior to old one, I switched it off).

Corporation management interface. After 12 years it's still a confusing heap of options that sometimes work when you find them.

Scanner overlay - an irritating pop-up that everyone accidentally brings up when they're trying to target whoever is warp disrupting them.

Love, making minigames for WIS, Drifter gameplay being fulfilling and impacting, etc. -- foremost, aren't features to improve retention and the PCU. Just as well, they aren't as simple as "does X, gets SP". This is, and it's a worthy feature because of its benefits.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
I just said this first iteration of this will not change anything so no I'm not complaining about one rat


And there is nothing wrong with players being able to play without logging in that one of the better things about eve. I can have a wife and kid yet still play eve because I don't need to constantly log in.

Players can log in and play as often and for add long as they want and each is just as valid

Punishing players who enjoy playing this game one easy by rewarding people who play it another is bad for a sand box

  • "There is nothing wrong with players being able to play without logging in."
  • If the player can't play, why should they be rewarded? If the player can play, why shouldn't they be? If the player has enough patience for the SP system, they surely have enough to play the game when they can for whatever amount of progression. It would plausibly be much less than the 20y of queues.

    Injectors have pushed real money into the SP equation more than ever, so it's not even about whether or not a player can play.. unless they're poor. Isn't being rewarded SP for activities exactly the same as the game is now except with more options? That player's not at work making real money, nor grinding for ISK, but is still being rewarded for playing the game / being part of the action. Those who can't play aren't losing anything, just missing out. Yet the point remains, if SP is that much of a determiner for enjoyment of the game, there's no reason for it to exist. All the complaints here about missing out on some 10k SP should be talking about how new characters are missing out on 10 or 50 or 100M SP, with the same amount of empathy. It's the same feeling. What makes veterans missing 10k SP any more relevant than newbies quitting the game because every niche they are interested in has a 5M SP training queue? Nothing. Welcome to the silence that is the SP discussion.
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #803 - 2016-04-10 16:18:33 UTC
    Zoltan Cole wrote:
    Krevnos wrote:
    T-Jay Charante wrote:
    All they have to do is give multiple options in the daily list that cover all aspects of the game, that you would probably be doing any way if you undock, and the problem is solved. Killing a rat was mentioned in the OP, I'm sure they have more to the system than that sole activity.


    Really?? How long have you been playing Eve?

    Shall we go through a list of just a few instances where CCP has failed to expand adequately on features?:

    Walking in stations (introduced as a half-baked feature, stayed that way)

    Drifters (gameplay never evolved)

    Null sec escalation complexes (many were missing for 8 years, some still aren't right)

    Ghost Fitting (never actually made it to server)

    The Rorqual (LOL)

    The Certificates system (useless feature at best and down-right misleading at worst)

    New camera (still disgusting, most have switched it off and switch it off again every time CCP switches it on for us after a patch)

    The second generation launcher (it was so bad many players never switched from the legacy one). We have now moved the the third generation one.

    New probe scanner (still inferior to old one, I switched it off).

    Corporation management interface. After 12 years it's still a confusing heap of options that sometimes work when you find them.

    Scanner overlay - an irritating pop-up that everyone accidentally brings up when they're trying to target whoever is warp disrupting them.

    Love, making minigames for WIS, Drifter gameplay being fulfilling and impacting, etc. -- foremost, aren't features to improve retention and the PCU. Just as well, they aren't as simple as "does X, gets SP". This is, and it's a worthy feature because of its benefits.

    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    I just said this first iteration of this will not change anything so no I'm not complaining about one rat


    And there is nothing wrong with players being able to play without logging in that one of the better things about eve. I can have a wife and kid yet still play eve because I don't need to constantly log in.

    Players can log in and play as often and for add long as they want and each is just as valid

    Punishing players who enjoy playing this game one easy by rewarding people who play it another is bad for a sand box

  • "There is nothing wrong with players being able to play without logging in."
  • If the player can't play, why should they be rewarded? If the player can play, why shouldn't they be? If the player has enough patience for the SP system, they surely have enough to play the game when they can for whatever amount of progression. It would plausibly be much less than the 20y of queues.

    Injectors have pushed real money into the SP equation more than ever, so it's not even about whether or not a player can play.. unless they're poor. Isn't being rewarded SP for activities exactly the same as the game is now except with more options? That player's not at work making real money, nor grinding for ISK, but is still being rewarded for playing the game / being part of the action. Those who can't play aren't losing anything, just missing out. Yet the point remains, if SP is that much of a determiner for enjoyment of the game, there's no reason for it to exist. All the complaints here about missing out on some 10k SP should be talking about how new characters are missing out on 10 or 50 or 100M SP, with the same amount of empathy. It's the same feeling. What makes veterans missing 10k SP any more relevant than newbies quitting the game because every niche they are interested in has a 5M SP training queue? Nothing. Welcome to the silence that is the SP discussion.


    Just because I'm not logged in doesn't mean I'm not paying. Hell I have fced before without even being at a PC

    I'll take it you never played many long duration table top RPGs like dnd

    You didn't need to all be sitting down at a table with a board in front of you and you didn't need any preset goal or quest all you needed was the other people in your group and a few pie defined rules. This magic has been lost in most games but has still managed to stick around with eve
    T-Jay Charante
    Black Sun Industry and Research
    #804 - 2016-04-10 16:21:25 UTC
    Krevnos wrote:
    T-Jay Charante wrote:
    All they have to do is give multiple options in the daily list that cover all aspects of the game, that you would probably be doing any way if you undock, and the problem is solved. Killing a rat was mentioned in the OP, I'm sure they have more to the system than that sole activity.


    Really?? How long have you been playing Eve?

    Shall we go through a list of just a few instances where CCP has failed to expand adequately on features?:

    Walking in stations (introduced as a half-baked feature, stayed that way)

    Drifters (gameplay never evolved)

    Null sec escalation complexes (many were missing for 8 years, some still aren't right)

    Ghost Fitting (never actually made it to server)

    The Rorqual (LOL)

    The Certificates system (useless feature at best and down-right misleading at worst)

    New camera (still disgusting, most have switched it off and switch it off again every time CCP switches it on for us after a patch)

    The second generation launcher (it was so bad many players never switched from the legacy one). We have now moved the the third generation one.

    New probe scanner (still inferior to old one, I switched it off).

    Corporation management interface. After 12 years it's still a confusing heap of options that sometimes work when you find them.

    Scanner overlay - an irritating pop-up that everyone accidentally brings up when they're trying to target whoever is warp disrupting them.


    Lets keep this in perspective, an Opportunities interface is already in place. Use that, simple. Comparing something like this to implementing Walking in Stations is crazy as they aren't even close to being on the same scale.
    Aluanna
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #805 - 2016-04-10 16:21:41 UTC
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    Aluanna wrote:
    Honestly I'm on the fence about this..

    Personally, I don't like the pressure to log in daily.. I'd much rather see this as a weekly thing that requires more effort, but also gives more reward..

    Assuming it's going to be implemented..

    Like every 6 days you log on and kill X NPC ships OR player ships, OR mine X ore (Not a checklist, just alternatives for those who don't partake in PVE)

    And once that is done you get X free SP (say 50k) It's just like the dailies, only the pressure is to log on weekly and put a little effort in, not daily find a random anomaly, warp in, kill one ship, dock up and log out..


    So you understand the concept behind dailies in eve is faulty at best but you want the bonuse XP


    I think this sums up the reasons ppl support this idea


    I understand the concept and who wouldn't want the bonus?

    But what I meant, or intended to mean was that knowing CCP (looking at skill injectors and the heaps and heaps of negative feedback that CCP then turned around and said was positive) they will implement it regardless, So with that in mind, I was just trying to think of less awful ways to go about this..

    Feeling the pressure to spend 5 minutes once every 22 hours vs feeling the pressure to spend 20 min every weekend is very different..
    And I for one - assuming this feature will be implemented regardless of what the community says - would rather spend 20 min every 6 days rather than 5 minutes every day, Some days we just don't want to, or don't have time, or can't play. That makes most of us (I assume) feel like we are missing out.
    Not having time/ability/want to spend 20 min every 6 days is much harder to justify.

    Dror wrote:
    It absolutely should. SP is quite obviously the whole reason for its announcement.

    There's no problem with rewarding log-on behavior either. It would exist automatically without SP, as players would start a production queue or check out a fresh market, increasing the amount of potential trade hubs and combat activities. Welcome to logic.


    I don't see a problem supporting log on behavior, I would just rather see it weekly than daily. Or even monthly.. That way you can spread the task out over a longer time.

    With a daily reward for killing a single NPC people are ABSOLUTELY going to log on, grab any old frigate, find the nearest anomaly, warp in, kill a single ship, grab the reward, dock back up and log out.

    With a bigger task it might actually encourage teaming up.

    For example, say the reward is over the month, but requires you to kill 500 NPC ships. It's pretty easy to kill 500 NPC's in a month, but say you have a friend online and you both have yet to complete your monthly bonus.

    So you fleet up and run around doing anomalies or missions or belt rats together, each ship counting towards both of your rewards, it would make getting the bonus more fun in my eyes.

    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #806 - 2016-04-10 16:25:31 UTC
    Aluanna wrote:
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    Aluanna wrote:
    Honestly I'm on the fence about this..

    Personally, I don't like the pressure to log in daily.. I'd much rather see this as a weekly thing that requires more effort, but also gives more reward..

    Assuming it's going to be implemented..

    Like every 6 days you log on and kill X NPC ships OR player ships, OR mine X ore (Not a checklist, just alternatives for those who don't partake in PVE)

    And once that is done you get X free SP (say 50k) It's just like the dailies, only the pressure is to log on weekly and put a little effort in, not daily find a random anomaly, warp in, kill one ship, dock up and log out..


    So you understand the concept behind dailies in eve is faulty at best but you want the bonuse XP


    I think this sums up the reasons ppl support this idea


    I understand the concept and who wouldn't want the bonus?

    But what I meant, or intended to mean was that knowing CCP (looking at skill injectors and the heaps and heaps of negative feedback that CCP then turned around and said was positive) they will implement it regardless, So with that in mind, I was just trying to think of less awful ways to go about this..

    Feeling the pressure to spend 5 minutes once every 22 hours vs feeling the pressure to spend 20 min every weekend is very different..
    And I for one - assuming this feature will be implemented regardless of what the community says - would rather spend 20 min every 6 days rather than 5 minutes every day, Some days we just don't want to, or don't have time, or can't play. That makes most of us (I assume) feel like we are missing out.
    Not having time/ability/want to spend 20 min every 6 days is much harder to justify.

    Dror wrote:
    It absolutely should. SP is quite obviously the whole reason for its announcement.

    There's no problem with rewarding log-on behavior either. It would exist automatically without SP, as players would start a production queue or check out a fresh market, increasing the amount of potential trade hubs and combat activities. Welcome to logic.


    I don't see a problem supporting log on behavior, I would just rather see it weekly than daily. Or even monthly.. That way you can spread the task out over a longer time.

    With a daily reward for killing a single NPC people are ABSOLUTELY going to log on, grab any old frigate, find the nearest anomaly, warp in, kill a single ship, grab the reward, dock back up and log out.

    With a bigger task it might actually encourage teaming up.

    For example, say the reward is over the month, but requires you to kill 500 NPC ships. It's pretty easy to kill 500 NPC's in a month, but say you have a friend online and you both have yet to complete your monthly bonus.

    So you fleet up and run around doing anomalies or missions or belt rats together, each ship counting towards both of your rewards, it would make getting the bonus more fun in my eyes.



    Problem I see with making it such a large task is that means it's even more time I'm spending out grinding rather than doing what I want at least with one npc a day that's only 365 extra rates worth of grind I need every year.
    Zoltan Cole
    State Protectorate
    Caldari State
    #807 - 2016-04-10 16:28:09 UTC
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    I'll take it you never played many long duration table top RPGs like dnd

    You didn't need to all be sitting down at a table with a board in front of you and you didn't need any preset goal or quest all you needed was the other people in your group and a few pie defined rules. This magic has been lost in most games but has still managed to stick around with eve

    As it is, the announcement is for taking out a single rat for a reward of 10k SP. The relevance of AFK FCing seems minimal. More players logging on to do their task is more characters to FC. The equation is obvious, so what exactly is the point being made?

    Aluanna wrote:
    I don't see a problem supporting log on behavior, I would just rather see it weekly than daily. Or even monthly.. That way you can spread the task out over a longer time.

    With a daily reward for killing a single NPC people are ABSOLUTELY going to log on, grab any old frigate, find the nearest anomaly, warp in, kill a single ship, grab the reward, dock back up and log out.

    There are no metrics for this and no reason for such a claim. If it's to benefit new players (obviously -- it's 10k SP), what's to say that there's established a "log-off automatically" mentality.. Nothing. They're online and getting experience. That's what the company believes retention comes from.

    They've stated the same for grouping, so it's within reason to bet on them planning that as well. Yet, the announced version is the most direct method of getting players online and undocked (and retained by lowering that queue -- interesting correlation).
    Ruby Gnollo
    #808 - 2016-04-10 16:32:41 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    I don't log in every day, I simply do not have the time every day to sit down at a PC to play a game. I have things I need to do, people to see, things to wash, food to eat and so on. People only spending time in a game at the weekend is a very real thing.


    So, if you have not enough time to play Eve, why the **** would you want to be treated like taking it ?
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #809 - 2016-04-10 16:34:27 UTC
    Zoltan Cole wrote:
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    I'll take it you never played many long duration table top RPGs like dnd

    You didn't need to all be sitting down at a table with a board in front of you and you didn't need any preset goal or quest all you needed was the other people in your group and a few pie defined rules. This magic has been lost in most games but has still managed to stick around with eve

    As it is, the announcement is for taking out a single rat for a reward of 10k SP. The relevance of AFK FCing seems minimal. More players logging on to do their task is more characters to FC. The equation is obvious, so what exactly is the point being made?

    Aluanna wrote:
    I don't see a problem supporting log on behavior, I would just rather see it weekly than daily. Or even monthly.. That way you can spread the task out over a longer time.

    With a daily reward for killing a single NPC people are ABSOLUTELY going to log on, grab any old frigate, find the nearest anomaly, warp in, kill a single ship, grab the reward, dock back up and log out.

    There are no metrics for this and no reason for such a claim. If it's to benefit new players (obviously -- it's 10k SP), what's to say that there's established a "log-off automatically" mentality.. Nothing. They're online and getting experience. That's what the company believes retention comes from.

    They've stated the same for grouping, so it's within reason to bet on them planning that as well. Yet, the announced version is the most direct method of getting players online and undocked (and retained by lowering that queue -- interesting correlation).


    There are more organic ways to get ppl to log in that CCP had managed to do b4 without them being the express goal and without telling players this is what they should do

    And powwow logging on just to get the SP are probably just going to log on kill rat log off.

    Add to the FC thing I was giving that add an example of how toy can play the game and s have an impact on other people playing without needing to be logged in. Showing how that playstyle is not detrimental to the game and equally as valid as playing while logged in
    Carrion Crow
    Head Like a Hole.
    #810 - 2016-04-10 16:34:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Carrion Crow
    As a noob I can remember the thing immediately hooked me about eve was the dark nature and the depth of complexity.

    It was a scary dangerous world, that punished me terribly for venturing away from my mission hub.


    I can remember landing next to a Myrmidon ( I thought it was the biggest thing I had ever seen ) in a belt, the first time I went to low sec.

    My frigate was immediately destroyed... but I had shot someone! in lawless space!


    A few days later I met a guy who helped me out, gave me isk for new ships and helped me learn to survive.


    The infinite darkness, complexity and social nature of the game is what makes people want to log in.

    Downplaying this and trivializing the nature of the game through daily grinds eat away at what makes Eve so great.


    CCPlease protect your amazing Eve brand - don't make this change.


    CC
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #811 - 2016-04-10 16:35:21 UTC
    Ruby Gnollo wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    I don't log in every day, I simply do not have the time every day to sit down at a PC to play a game. I have things I need to do, people to see, things to wash, food to eat and so on. People only spending time in a game at the weekend is a very real thing.


    So, if you have not enough time to play Eve, why the **** would you want to be treated like taking it ?


    What?
    Zoltan Cole
    State Protectorate
    Caldari State
    #812 - 2016-04-10 16:41:28 UTC
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    There are more organic ways to get ppl to log in that CCP had managed to do b4 without them being the express goal and without telling players this is what they should do

    It's stated plenty in the thread that this is obviously for fresh characters. They have little else to be interested in except cheap SP because they don't have ships unlocked or methods of making dosh.

    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    And powwow logging on just to get the SP are probably just going to log on kill rat log off.

    See

    Zoltan Cole wrote:
    There are no metrics for this and no reason for such a claim. If it's to benefit new players (obviously -- it's 10k SP), what's to say that there's established a "log-off automatically" mentality.. Nothing. They're online and getting experience. That's what the company believes retention comes from.
    Lost touch
    Make-EVE-Great-Again
    NO NEED LOOSE FACE
    #813 - 2016-04-10 16:48:56 UTC
    Seems like a P bad idea tbh...

    You dont need me to explain why you already know why its a crap idea!

    Fla5hy Red the wrong way, only faster

    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #814 - 2016-04-10 16:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
    Zoltan Cole wrote:
    think of the newbie


    OH quit it this is not for the new players and you know it

    And even for a vet missing out on over 25%of your sp a day is a lot and extremely punishing
    Draciste
    Everyone vs Everything
    #815 - 2016-04-10 17:03:43 UTC
    and what about the same if you got "killmark" ?
    Princess Newstar
    All Sockets Closed
    #816 - 2016-04-10 17:05:27 UTC
    Instead of concentrate so much on new things, what about getting your old crap to work proberly ???
    Lan Wang
    Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
    Safety. Net
    #817 - 2016-04-10 17:07:36 UTC
    T-Jay Charante wrote:
    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    sero Hita wrote:
    I am generally quite possitive about the changes CCP has done the last years, but with this I have this nagging feeling that the motive behind is more sinister. The claim is more will log in, but it will be only briefly to get the SP, defating its purpose. Dailies and weeklies made me quit SWTOR, as I in the end hated logging in just to repeat the same **** I did every day. So as this does not have the wanted affect, let us then look at what is does do.... it injects quite a lot of SP into the system. That is convinient just after SP trading was implemented. You can create 6 extra injectors per year per char. that is potentially (In an extreme best case scenario) 18 extra extractors bought from CCP for each account. Nice way to make money, it will not get more people in space for longer periods of time though.


    The goal of dailies is not to get more people playing just to get more ppl to log in increasing log in averages and thus will do just that. It's not a change to make things better for players but a change to make things better for ccp


    But it does make things better for the players, and for CCP too obviously. If I am juggling a few games at any particular time, instead of logging into one of the other games, I'm logging into Eve. Ok, maybe for 5 minutes, or maybe once I log in, I stay for longer than expected, who knows. But at the end of the day, I'm playing Eve rather than the other game.


    how does it make things better for players? its creating a chore (this wont be the last one either) maybe 5 minutes now, but give it 6 months and everyone will be required to login everyday to feed themselves or they will die forever (or pay $59.99 for a special diet plan which makes you live for a month). these chores are totally cancer in games.

    this idea as ive said before has had no thought what so ever put into it, they could easily advance on the pve events they hold and make them better and more engaging for players, giving the whole playerbase something to do regardless if you pvp or not

    Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

    Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

    Aluanna
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #818 - 2016-04-10 17:08:19 UTC
    Zoltan Cole wrote:


    Aluanna wrote:
    I don't see a problem supporting log on behavior, I would just rather see it weekly than daily. Or even monthly.. That way you can spread the task out over a longer time.

    With a daily reward for killing a single NPC people are ABSOLUTELY going to log on, grab any old frigate, find the nearest anomaly, warp in, kill a single ship, grab the reward, dock back up and log out.

    There are no metrics for this and no reason for such a claim. If it's to benefit new players (obviously -- it's 10k SP), what's to say that there's established a "log-off automatically" mentality.. Nothing. They're online and getting experience. That's what the company believes retention comes from.

    They've stated the same for grouping, so it's within reason to bet on them planning that as well. Yet, the announced version is the most direct method of getting players online and undocked (and retained by lowering that queue -- interesting correlation).


    Yea, because Eve players haven't time and time again shown that they will take the easy way over the hard way any time..
    All those trade bots in trade hubs that automatically 0.01 isk undercut. Or trying to use a broadcasting macro to mine on several accounts.

    If you don't think it will happened you are just plain delusional. Many might not do it, but saying that it won't happened because there are no "metrics" showing it is just wrong.

    Doesn't need to be an established mentality.. It just needs to be something as simple as not really feeling like playing that day, but also not wanting to miss out on about 4 hours of extra training a day. Hence why I'd rather see it as a weekly or monthly task, to alleviate some of that 'Not wanting to miss out' mentality. spreading the task out over a week means you are a lot less likely to miss out from not wanting to play a couple days a week or month.


    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    Problem I see with making it such a large task is that means it's even more time I'm spending out grinding rather than doing what I want at least with one npc a day that's only 365 extra rates worth of grind I need every year.


    Hence why I suggested that there should be far more ways to receive the reward than just PVE. be it kill X number of players, mine X number of ore units or complete x number of scans. You should be able to get the reward doing whatever it is you enjoy doing in this game. Limiting it to PVE, even if the task is trivial is just plain dumb.
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #819 - 2016-04-10 17:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
    Aluanna wrote:



    Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
    Problem I see with making it such a large task is that means it's even more time I'm spending out grinding rather than doing what I want at least with one npc a day that's only 365 extra rates worth of grind I need every year.


    Hence why I suggested that there should be far more ways to receive the reward than just PVE. be it kill X number of players, mine X number of ore units or complete x number of scans. You should be able to get the reward doing whatever it is you enjoy doing in this game. Limiting it to PVE, even if the task is trivial is just plain dumb.


    What about people like me who play the game by managing an alliance providing content to others and teaching newbie how would I get the sp?
    u3pog
    Ministerstvo na otbranata
    Ore No More
    #820 - 2016-04-10 17:22:33 UTC
    Daily I won't bother, only casual player, but it you add weelkly and more challenging I might do it.