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Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#2481 - 2016-06-04 23:26:34 UTC
Has anyone checked to see if dailies have actually increased active user count?

Personally I have actually been slightly less active since dailies were introduced due to loss of of enthusiasm for the game. I've only managed to claim one daily bonus so far.

Has anyone found this has encouraged them to log on, or has it had the opposite effect, or no effect at all?
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2482 - 2016-06-05 01:04:58 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Has anyone checked to see if dailies have actually increased active user count?

Personally I have actually been slightly less active since dailies were introduced due to loss of of enthusiasm for the game. I've only managed to claim one daily bonus so far.

Has anyone found this has encouraged them to log on, or has it had the opposite effect, or no effect at all?

Too early to tell; sample size still too small. You'd probably need a rolling 6-month average and compare the trending numbers (up or down) to last year's, and then factor in and filter out pre-existing trending up/down numbers that were due to changes implemented (like Citadels), then factor in out-of-game-things like how the economy has changed which would effect how many people could afford to keep their subscription going, then factor for in-game things which cause subscriptions to rise and fall like world war Bee or a lack of wars, etc etc etc...

In other words, it's about impossible to know for sure. The best you can hope for is anecdotal stories of individuals coming to the forums and claiming they log in more often strictly because of dailies, and pray they aren't lying about it. So, the only thing we'll ever be able to say for sure is that the feature is a failure because the only thing it was designed to do was left without a way to accurately measure any possible success.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Cyrus Tybalt
Blap n Pew
#2483 - 2016-06-05 11:27:32 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Has anyone checked to see if dailies have actually increased active user count?

Personally I have actually been slightly less active since dailies were introduced due to loss of of enthusiasm for the game. I've only managed to claim one daily bonus so far.

Has anyone found this has encouraged them to log on, or has it had the opposite effect, or no effect at all?


I don't log on to get some miniscule daily amount of extra SP. I log on to earn isk in order to build something and amassing capital to afford bigger, badder ships to use for PvP.

Also, through earning isk, I can buy way more SP than I can get from these dailies by purchasing skill injectors.
Cyrus Tybalt
Blap n Pew
#2484 - 2016-06-05 11:40:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyrus Tybalt
Rek Seven wrote:


The point is, you can only train a skill to level 5... So when people say "you can never catch up with older players", this simply is not true. If you pick any ship and decide that you want to have perfect skills for that ship and its fit, that is an achievable goal.


I don't think people mean skilltraining when they talk about being unable to "catch up" to older players though.

Being unable to catch up has more to do with financial capital and assets.

It's really hard, or even impossible to truly compete on equal terms with a group that is well established in an area and with fat wallets, since they can afford bringing out bling fitted PvP ships of epic destruction, lose them and simply bring out some more in order to defend their territory, while a group of newbro's simply can't afford to do that.

And it doesn't work trying to grind for more isk either, because while you do that, the targeted group of older players does the same, so the difference gap in capital and assets remain, unless you luck out and go to war against a largely inactive/lazy group of players. But finding those as newbro's would be difficult, since such groups are more likely to get swallowed up by other groups of established older players.

This phenomena is of course very natural since they game mechanics look the way they do. But the sad part is that it kind of goes against the whole "build your dreams, do what you want"-crap that CCP tries to sell off Eve as.

You aren't really able to "do what you want" if your freedom is so severely hampered by established bittervets with insane levels of financial capital and assets to their names. Being forced to join a bigger corp or alliance to earn real isk isn't exactly my idea of "build your dream, do what you want", if I want to be a CEO of one of those big corps or big alliances.

This is sort of the reason why I like living in a wormhole system, because you feel more "free" from the oppression of more established and well financed blocs in the game. Because while it is hostile territory, the nature of wormholes make them difficult to mount a real assault onyour bases in terms of logistics. And there's plenty of wormhole systems to go round as well, so there's rarely any need to invade someone elses system and take it from them.

If I wanted to live in nullsec, I'd be more oppressed by established groups.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#2485 - 2016-06-05 13:30:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Cyrus Tybalt wrote:
Being unable to catch up has more to do with financial capital and assets.
...
This phenomena is of course very natural since they game mechanics look the way they do. But the sad part is that it kind of goes against the whole "build your dreams, do what you want"-crap that CCP tries to sell off Eve as.

No, it doesnt.
It does, however, go against "get instant access to your dreams from day one"-crap that CCP turns EVE into to please you, the newbros and newsissies alike.

If you, the newbros and newsissies, had spent at least a token effort to understand how EVE works instead of whining on reddits, you'd probably understand that after a certain threshold neither the amount of ISK, nor the amount of SP cannot offset determination and enthusiasm. That's how you catch up with older players. Oh noes, you've just learned something about EVE! Quick, flush it away from your memory or this cancer will make you a bittervet in no time! JK, it wont. But you better stop assigning labels like unestablished newsissy.
Cyrus Tybalt
Blap n Pew
#2486 - 2016-06-05 15:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyrus Tybalt
Skia Aumer wrote:
Cyrus Tybalt wrote:
Being unable to catch up has more to do with financial capital and assets.
...
This phenomena is of course very natural since they game mechanics look the way they do. But the sad part is that it kind of goes against the whole "build your dreams, do what you want"-crap that CCP tries to sell off Eve as.

No, it doesnt.
It does, however, go against "get instant access to your dreams from day one"-crap that CCP turns EVE into to please you, the newbros and newsissies alike.

If you, the newbros and newsissies, had spent at least a token effort to understand how EVE works instead of whining on reddits, you'd probably understand that after a certain threshold neither the amount of ISK, nor the amount of SP cannot offset determination and enthusiasm. That's how you catch up with older players. Oh noes, you've just learned something about EVE! Quick, flush it away from your memory or this cancer will make you a bittervet in no time! JK, it wont. But you better stop assigning labels like unestablished newsissy.


Evidently I understand the mechanics of EVE better than you do because your lame attempt at a counter argument basically bottles down to: "You're wrong, because [Ad hominem] and baseless accusations of my lack of knowledge and understanding of the game mechanics and equally baseless accusations of me being a whining newbro (you may note that my account is from 2008?)."

If you seriously believe that there's no critical competition between players i terms of resources, capital and assets, and that "mere elbowgrease and hard work" will land you in a position of ruling a nullsec region, then there's really no need for me to continue discussing the matter with you because your stance blatantly ignores the critical aspect of player interaction and it's ramifications on the success and failure of people trying to settle and conquer null sec systems.

Better luck next time, little grasshopper. :)
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#2487 - 2016-06-05 17:28:44 UTC
Cyrus Tybalt wrote:
my account is from 2008

Oh. You play for 8 years, live in a wormhole and speculate on difficulties that new players have conquering nullsec. Is that correct?

Cyrus Tybalt wrote:
If you seriously believe that there's no critical competition between players i terms of resources, capital and assets, and that "mere elbowgrease and hard work" will land you in a position of ruling a nullsec region, then there's really no need for me to continue discussing the matter with you because your stance blatantly ignores the critical aspect of player interaction and it's ramifications on the success and failure of people trying to settle and conquer null sec systems.

It's been a year since we regained southern regions. During this period, there were zero attempts to conquer any of those systems. Where are all those mysterious newbros you're trying to defend? Guess they struggle fitting a caracal with entosis link? Tell me about ramifications.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2488 - 2016-06-06 07:33:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Skia Aumer wrote:

It's been a year since we regained southern regions. During this period, there were zero attempts to conquer any of those systems. Where are all those mysterious newbros you're trying to defend? Guess they struggle fitting a caracal with entosis link? Tell me about ramifications.


Go back, find the graph CCP published showing average age of account & average number of alts in EVE last fanfest, look at the main alliances in the big null coalitions. Then also find the graph showing titans built per quarter. They are all ancient and running hordes of alts. The newbro's either get sucked into those coalitions, or decide not to bother with Null because they are 500 titans too late to the game.
However one can argue if it's a good or a bad thing that players can endlessly accumulate wealth in a sandbox environment. So *shrug*. It's just a thing, but trying to pretend that it's not controlled by groups of old players who apportion it out to their underlings is silly.


Moac Tor wrote:
Has anyone checked to see if dailies have actually increased active user count?

Personally I have actually been slightly less active since dailies were introduced due to loss of of enthusiasm for the game. I've only managed to claim one daily bonus so far.

Has anyone found this has encouraged them to log on, or has it had the opposite effect, or no effect at all?

Eve offline shows no trend at all.

While it is too early to say for sure, most patches of note show a jump in activity as people flock to try the new things.
So given that any 6 month trend includes at least 1 major expansion and a bunch of significant patches, it's probably fair to say that recurring opportunities are going to have negligible effect overall, if not a long term negative effect due to disillusionment & burn out.

CCP will of course, almost certainly not admit this, because anyone with a brain could see it wasn't going to significantly affect concurrent login numbers right from the get go, and therefore that argument has to have been a facade for whatever their real reason for introducing the level grind to EVE was.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#2489 - 2016-06-06 09:55:11 UTC
Maybe the introduction of level grind was precisely to discourage the hordes of alts. All this complaining of "I have 10 accounts, I'm unsubbing over this" might just be working as intended.

Maybe the best statistic for how healthy EVE is as a game is: number of unique players logged in. If they make maintenance of a horde of alts enough of a hassle, there will be something for a lot of real players to do.

Thinning out the horde of sock puppets might be healthy for the game. Your own sock puppets are a lot simpler to interact with than other players, and you don't have to worry about them running off with your stuff unless you're doing smoke-and-mirrors.

A signature :o
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2490 - 2016-06-06 10:22:06 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Maybe the introduction of level grind was precisely to discourage the hordes of alts. All this complaining of "I have 10 accounts, I'm unsubbing over this" might just be working as intended.

Maybe the best statistic for how healthy EVE is as a game is: number of unique players logged in. If they make maintenance of a horde of alts enough of a hassle, there will be something for a lot of real players to do.

Thinning out the horde of sock puppets might be healthy for the game. Your own sock puppets are a lot simpler to interact with than other players, and you don't have to worry about them running off with your stuff unless you're doing smoke-and-mirrors.

The average accounts per player is around 1.5.
There is not a significant number of alts overall, so that's not a very valid argument.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#2491 - 2016-06-06 12:01:20 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:

It's been a year since we regained southern regions. During this period, there were zero attempts to conquer any of those systems. Where are all those mysterious newbros you're trying to defend? Guess they struggle fitting a caracal with entosis link? Tell me about ramifications.

The newbro's either get sucked into those coalitions, or decide not to bother with Null because they are 500 titans too late to the game.

Spot on.
They decide to lose the fight before even starting it.
"I will not try to contest that system because 500 titans will drop on my entosing caracal".
"I will not join those coalitions because I will be oppressed by evil overlords".
"I will not go to live in Providence because I will die to a gate camp".
Mindset of a looser.

I'd be fine with that. This is a sandbox game and as long as you pay subscription you can play whatever style you want. But there goes CCP saying "guys! we'll nerf them titans, crush overlords and make ships invulnerable to camp! now you can finally do what you always wanted to do!" F@ck that bullsh*t. They will find other excuses.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#2492 - 2016-06-06 12:22:01 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
CCP will of course, almost certainly not admit this, because anyone with a brain could see it wasn't going to significantly affect concurrent login numbers right from the get go, and therefore that argument has to have been a facade for whatever their real reason for introducing the level grind to EVE was.

Ah, the conspiracy theory.
The goal was set loud and clear: to induce more logins. More logins -> more content -> more subscribers -> more money.
TBH, I'm a bit surprised, I was pretty sure it would work. But thank Bob, it failed. Now we have all reasons to demand removing this abomination from EVE.
Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development
AddictClan
#2493 - 2016-06-07 07:08:09 UTC
Alright CCP, you did your skinner box experiment, can we get rid of dailies yet?
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#2494 - 2016-06-07 08:33:27 UTC
"daily skinner box"

Like it so far (except name, who came up with "recurring"?), it's not so much sp to encourage logging all 5 alts to get it, but a nice bonus on the side. Gather 100 or 200k and apply to that "one skill you sort of need but never wanted to train" :)

Omen Navy Issue Tutorial
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2495 - 2016-06-07 08:56:35 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
CCP will of course, almost certainly not admit this, because anyone with a brain could see it wasn't going to significantly affect concurrent login numbers right from the get go, and therefore that argument has to have been a facade for whatever their real reason for introducing the level grind to EVE was.

Ah, the conspiracy theory.
The goal was set loud and clear: to induce more logins. More logins -> more content -> more subscribers -> more money.
TBH, I'm a bit surprised, I was pretty sure it would work. But thank Bob, it failed. Now we have all reasons to demand removing this abomination from EVE.

I actually logged in an alt that is just doing skill cues online (due to the length of his current skill cue) 5 times to collect the "bonus" SP, applied it,, noticed it had no real affect on the skill it was applied to - and gave it up as a simple nuisance task I am not bothered about.
In fact this has been a bit of a nudge to just not bother renewing this particular sub when it next rolls around, after all, it's not like I "really" need all my accounts anymore. CCP saw to that quite effectively.
7 down, 4 to go....

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
FoxFire Ayderan
#2496 - 2016-06-07 17:55:54 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Has anyone checked to see if dailies have actually increased active user count?

Personally I have actually been slightly less active since dailies were introduced due to loss of of enthusiasm for the game. I've only managed to claim one daily bonus so far.

Has anyone found this has encouraged them to log on, or has it had the opposite effect, or no effect at all?


The systems I tend to hang out in have never been busier. Dailies? Citadel expansion? Who's to say.
Juliet DiMarco
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2497 - 2016-06-09 01:35:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Juliet DiMarco
Moac Tor wrote:
Has anyone checked to see if dailies have actually increased active user count?

Personally I have actually been slightly less active since dailies were introduced due to loss of of enthusiasm for the game. I've only managed to claim one daily bonus so far.

Has anyone found this has encouraged them to log on, or has it had the opposite effect, or no effect at all?


I've stopped buying PLEX packs every month for multi character training/skill injectors and I've been significantly less active in game. It's funny because I used to be totally focused on pumping my characters with as much SP as possible, it didn't take me long to burn out once injectors were introduced. Injectors/dailies have made me realize how stupid the SP chase really is and it's bugged me how quickly CCP is willing to abandon core game tenets for better quarterly reporting numbers.

As a result I'm discovering that my only goal in this game for the past 2 years or so has been a blind march to make my characters "stronger," to be able to fly the next thing even if I never planned to actually use the ship/module/benefit of the training in practice. Since dailies were introduced and they limited the gain to one character per account, my entertainment money has been spent on other games. Last week I realized I'm having way more fun playing Overwatch than I had been in Eve, it's cool what taking a break from a routine will help you learn. Totally different style of game, I know, but I'd still be running incursions on my alt or exploring on Juliet to buy the next injector / replace the next set of lost +5s if it weren't for dailies.

Thanks for the new found freedom from your product, CCP!
Rexeva
Doomheim
#2498 - 2016-06-09 20:16:20 UTC
zluq zabaa wrote:
I like it. Thanks CCP. Please add more diversity to it and EVE will flourish.

What does it actually change?
• rewards activity vs. just passive income (while crying in forums)
• creates an SP shower as a counterweight to the massive SP drain induced by skill injectors
• realizes SP as one of the most precious commodities (inb4 someone lessoning about SP: blablabla, you need them as well as experience, only one of the two won't help you much)
• it adds a reward that's not straightforward exploitable by the already (isk/sp) rich

People who are whining are:
• guys who invested billions over billions in skill injectors
• oldbros who got few million free sp for cruiser/bc V (newbros have to train each of them one by one)
• people who complain being »forced« to do something, while they don't use most of the opportunities already out there
• guys who thought they're finally good at this game
• generally people who don't care about EVE as a community game, but about themselves getting/staying on top of it


EVE is a great game, because it evolves, because it changes. Creating opportunities and more content for new players is very much desireable for the whole game. It's basically the only way EVE can strive. Catering the entitled feelings of bitter oldbros would be the one thing that slowly kills this game. If it was up to me, I'd decide to shake up all of it far more to ensure that EVE stays interesting and not a muddy pit of habit, stasis and boredom. Maybe add a Single Player version of EVE for all the people who hate change.

* Theoretical max. of +327k SP/month per Account for logging in every 22h is the (current) equivalent of spending between 385M and 1.9B per month on Skill Injectors (depending on your current overall SP). Instead of logging in every day, just log in once, make some ISK and pay someone else for SP

* It's hilarious how people will threaten to leave this game over and over again. It would be so nice if some of those actually left the game. There are many people with different interests in here. Be a part of it and accept that not everything will always be in your favor. Or just go. Really - if you hate it so much, please just leave the game. It will be better for yourself and EVE, if you don't poison the atmosphere and your own mind by your constant whining.


IdeaBig smileIdea Totally agree ^^^^^^^
Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development
AddictClan
#2499 - 2016-06-10 06:16:50 UTC
zluq zabaa wrote:
I like it. Thanks CCP. Please add more diversity to it and EVE will flourish.

What does it actually change?
• rewards activity vs. just passive income (while crying in forums)
• creates an SP shower as a counterweight to the massive SP drain induced by skill injectors
• realizes SP as one of the most precious commodities (inb4 someone lessoning about SP: blablabla, you need them as well as experience, only one of the two won't help you much)
• it adds a reward that's not straightforward exploitable by the already (isk/sp) rich

People who are whining are:
• guys who invested billions over billions in skill injectors
• oldbros who got few million free sp for cruiser/bc V (newbros have to train each of them one by one)
• people who complain being »forced« to do something, while they don't use most of the opportunities already out there
• guys who thought they're finally good at this game
• generally people who don't care about EVE as a community game, but about themselves getting/staying on top of it


EVE is a great game, because it evolves, because it changes. Creating opportunities and more content for new players is very much desireable for the whole game. It's basically the only way EVE can strive. Catering the entitled feelings of bitter oldbros would be the one thing that slowly kills this game. If it was up to me, I'd decide to shake up all of it far more to ensure that EVE stays interesting and not a muddy pit of habit, stasis and boredom. Maybe add a Single Player version of EVE for all the people who hate change.

* Theoretical max. of +327k SP/month per Account for logging in every 22h is the (current) equivalent of spending between 385M and 1.9B per month on Skill Injectors (depending on your current overall SP). Instead of logging in every day, just log in once, make some ISK and pay someone else for SP

* It's hilarious how people will threaten to leave this game over and over again. It would be so nice if some of those actually left the game. There are many people with different interests in here. Be a part of it and accept that not everything will always be in your favor. Or just go. Really - if you hate it so much, please just leave the game. It will be better for yourself and EVE, if you don't poison the atmosphere and your own mind by your constant whining.

What does it actually change?
-instant gratification rather than rewarding patience and planning
-further devalues SP, which should only be available through training, and not skill trading or dailies
-adds directed gameplay in what is supposed to be an open sandbox game

People who are in favor of dailies are:
-only interested in more sp in less time by whatever means they can get rather than considering that this and skill trading are poor game design, especially for the core concepts of EVE.
-not really interested in a sandbox, they want directed gameplay

People who are against dailies are:
-people who left other MMO's to get away from daily grinds
-people who prefer to not be told by CCP how to play in the sandbox
-people who can spot a skinner box from a mile away

Personally I have not threatened to leave EVE, such threats are empty without followthrough, and despite the handful of bad changes (skill trading, dailies, the watchlist nerf) as a whole I still enjoy the game and the people I play it with. However, I will continue to point out bad ideas when I see them.
Dallenn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2500 - 2016-06-10 13:49:45 UTC
This is game breaking and counter productive.

Please remove or set the reward to 2000-3000 sp.