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[Citadels] Carriers

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#701 - 2016-05-12 00:59:08 UTC
so i can confirm that these can't alpha logi so that is not a threat. a max dps chimera + max dps nid can not even get past 2/3 of a scimis shields

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#702 - 2016-05-12 06:18:17 UTC
I thought the new carriers were supposed to be based off mechanics borrowed whole sale from games like wows and steel ocean. If you've used carriers in either of those games then you should know exactly what you're looking at these days. Optimal targets for carriers as I see them - bc and t1 battleships. Cruisers if youre triple tc +tp fit, definitely don't recommend trying to take on other caputal ships.

Follows a similar pattern in wows. Broadly there are destroyers lightcruisers heavycruisers battlecruisers and then dreadnoughts. Ships like north carolina definitely being a dreadnought if you're in carrier and in range prepare to die.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#703 - 2016-05-12 07:24:52 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I thought the new carriers were supposed to be based off mechanics borrowed whole sale from games like wows and steel ocean. If you've used carriers in either of those games then you should know exactly what you're looking at these days. Optimal targets for carriers as I see them - bc and t1 battleships. Cruisers if youre triple tc +tp fit, definitely don't recommend trying to take on other caputal ships.

Follows a similar pattern in wows. Broadly there are destroyers lightcruisers heavycruisers battlecruisers and then dreadnoughts. Ships like north carolina definitely being a dreadnought if you're in carrier and in range prepare to die.

Problem now for Carriers is, BC's and T1 Battleships aren't really used in PVP, it is usually Over powered T3 Dessies, Command Dessies, Mach's (which carriers are pretty useless at hitting) and Rattlesnakes, which will eat Carriers and their Light Fighters for breakfast.
And the best counter for a small gang of carriers and support is dreads, which the carriers have no defense against.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#704 - 2016-05-12 09:54:04 UTC
Yeah.. but that's just EVE isn't it. Much of the time you win the battle before you undock.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#705 - 2016-05-12 10:02:33 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Yeah.. but that's just EVE isn't it. Much of the time you win the battle before you undock.

Unfortunately that often means whoever hasn't already won the battle doesn't undock.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#706 - 2016-05-12 15:17:44 UTC
lol carriers are crap against buffer tanked BCs or BBs unless you have 3-4 carriers but once you are shooting BC/BB HAW are king anyway.

as for command dessies carriers are good at killing these you just need to use the superiority fighters

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kayalia Noble
dead.Orbit
#707 - 2016-05-12 22:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kayalia Noble
Since the Citadel update, I've gotten only two fights that haven't ended with carriers warping in on our small roaming gang and us being forced to leave else we get 1-shot by fighters that go 10km/s or more with the mwd ability that scramming doesn't shut off.

I understand that people don't feel a carrier should be vulnerable to a small roaming gang of cruisers and battlecruisers, and that's fine, but when the answer to every roaming fleet that comes to your space is to bring a carrier, something is wrong.
They lock faster than a ceptor, the fighters can't be outrun, and they apply near perfectly to anything subcap.

Some arguments i'm seeing;

"The fighters can be jammed. "
Except that a carrier can lock a kitsune and have fighters 1-shot the kitsune even if he's 100km away before the kitsune can lock and jam the fighters.

"Just don't engage if they bring a carrier and you're not setup for it!"
That's fine, but every fight I've gotten has ended with carriers or supers warping or cynoing in, so are we just not supposed to fight any gang and stick to ganking ratters and running away, because they can warp in 1 ship and press a button to kill an entire roaming gang?

"Just kill the fighters!"
With what, the wrecks of our fleet that got 1-shot by 10km/s fighters with 35k alpha within 10 seconds of landing on grid?

---

Basically, this change has effectively killed the small gang roaming playstyle. Everybody and their alts have carriers. They are cheap and insurable. You're roaming to their space, if they can completely counter your gang with 1 ship and 0 piloting skill, why would anyone bring anything else to fight you?
I'm not saying carriers should be able to be killed by 5 guys in faction cruisers or perma held down by a linked interceptor, but when the answer to every roaming gang that comes to your area is a carrier, there's no point in roaming unless you're just looking to gank a ratter and run away.

All of this isn't even getting into how ridiculous they are at gate camping.
A carrier that can sit 5000km off a gate, aligned to a POS, instalock and 1-shot frigates and cruisers with drones already pre-positioned with 0 risk to himself is not okay or good gameplay.

I 100% support that carriers and fighters needed a buff, but the current change has killed small gang roaming and made 0 risk gate camping more of a reality than it ever was before.


Obviously some people like this change and think it's a good thing, others don't.
I'm just giving my input from the perspective of a small gang roaming viewpoint.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#708 - 2016-05-12 22:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
1) Bring logi.

2) Carriers don't tackle any faster than a battle cruiser.

3) Please, PLEASE learn how these things actually work before complaining, once again we have a post which is full of inaccuracies and falsehoods.
Kayalia Noble
dead.Orbit
#709 - 2016-05-12 22:20:31 UTC
Logi doesn't work when your ship is legitimately 1-shot.

A thanatos with an NSA alone locks at 813mm. A gnosis is the fastest locking BC I think, and has a scan res of 375mm while most have around 250mm. So yes, it does, a LOT faster.

So if you want the falsehoods and inaccuracies to stop, maybe stop spreading them yourself.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#710 - 2016-05-12 22:26:11 UTC
FC what is fighter scan res?

FC what is sebo cane scan res?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#711 - 2016-05-12 22:31:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Kayalia Noble wrote:
Logi doesn't work when your ship is legitimately 1-shot.

A thanatos with an NSA alone locks at 813mm. A gnosis is the fastest locking BC I think, and has a scan res of 375mm while most have around 250mm. So yes, it does, a LOT faster.

So if you want the falsehoods and inaccuracies to stop, maybe stop spreading them yourself.


if you are getting one shot you need a better tank...

also scrams do shut down the mwd but just like on a ship only after a cycle finishes

and these things are still very vulnerable to ecm fighters are also easy to kill

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kayalia Noble
dead.Orbit
#712 - 2016-05-12 22:33:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kayalia Noble
Fighter scan res is 800 base on Einherji II, still 3x a normal battlecruiser that you say they can't lock faster than.

Oh sorry, you're right, a 3x sebo cane can lock faster, how silly of me.
If we're doing that, a thanatos with an NSA and 2 sebos gets 2k scan res and locks faster now.
We can make pointless arguments all day, it doesn't change anything.

Obviously the answer to being one shot is have more tank, but when the only thing that isn't getting one shot are armor hacs and t3s, why don't we just remove every other ship from the game when the easy counter to them is just one carrier.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#713 - 2016-05-12 22:36:28 UTC
Kayalia Noble wrote:
Oh sorry, you're right, a 3x sebo cane can lock faster, how silly of me.
If we're doing that, a thanatos with an NSA and 2 sebos gets 2k scan res and locks faster now.
We can make pointless arguments all day, it doesn't change anything.

Obviously the answer to being one shot is have more tank, but when the only thing that isn't getting one shot are armor hacs and t3s, why don't we just remove every other ship from the game when the easy counter to them is just one carrier.



let's see


t1 frigs don't get one shot

t1 cruisers don't get one shot

BBs don't get one shot

T3ds don't get one shot

BCs don't get one shot


oh and this was all in a fight with 2 carriers syncing their alpha

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kayalia Noble
dead.Orbit
#714 - 2016-05-12 22:38:03 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Kayalia Noble wrote:
Oh sorry, you're right, a 3x sebo cane can lock faster, how silly of me.
If we're doing that, a thanatos with an NSA and 2 sebos gets 2k scan res and locks faster now.
We can make pointless arguments all day, it doesn't change anything.

Obviously the answer to being one shot is have more tank, but when the only thing that isn't getting one shot are armor hacs and t3s, why don't we just remove every other ship from the game when the easy counter to them is just one carrier.



let's see


t1 frigs don't get one shot

t1 cruisers don't get one shot

BBs don't get one shot

T3ds don't get one shot

BCs don't get one shot


oh and this was all in a fight with 2 carriers syncing their alpha


I have kills on most of these ships with a single carrier that say otherwise. And deaths that say otherwise as well.
Either you're lying or doing something very wrong.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#715 - 2016-05-12 22:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Kayalia Noble wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Kayalia Noble wrote:
Oh sorry, you're right, a 3x sebo cane can lock faster, how silly of me.
If we're doing that, a thanatos with an NSA and 2 sebos gets 2k scan res and locks faster now.
We can make pointless arguments all day, it doesn't change anything.

Obviously the answer to being one shot is have more tank, but when the only thing that isn't getting one shot are armor hacs and t3s, why don't we just remove every other ship from the game when the easy counter to them is just one carrier.



let's see


t1 frigs don't get one shot

t1 cruisers don't get one shot

BBs don't get one shot

T3ds don't get one shot

BCs don't get one shot


oh and this was all in a fight with 2 carriers syncing their alpha


I have kills on most of these ships with a single carrier that say otherwise. And deaths that say otherwise as well.
Either you're lying or doing something very wrong.



only way you are alphaing these is

they are tanked poorly

they are flying poorly

they are webbed and painted in witch case yes capitals with a support fleet are very effective

hell even webbed and painted a than can only do 39k alpha my t1 cruisers have anyplace from 50-65k ehp

EDIT

and how do you have one of these tackling with a NSAthey can't run e-war and the NSA at the same time?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#716 - 2016-05-13 02:45:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Kayalia Noble wrote:
Since the Citadel update, I've gotten only two fights that haven't ended with carriers warping in on our small roaming gang and us being forced to leave else we get 1-shot by fighters that go 10km/s or more with the mwd ability that scramming doesn't shut off.

I understand that people don't feel a carrier should be vulnerable to a small roaming gang of cruisers and battlecruisers, and that's fine, but when the answer to every roaming fleet that comes to your space is to bring a carrier, something is wrong.
They lock faster than a ceptor, the fighters can't be outrun, and they apply near perfectly to anything subcap.

Some arguments i'm seeing;

"The fighters can be jammed. "
Except that a carrier can lock a kitsune and have fighters 1-shot the kitsune even if he's 100km away before the kitsune can lock and jam the fighters.

"Just don't engage if they bring a carrier and you're not setup for it!"
That's fine, but every fight I've gotten has ended with carriers or supers warping or cynoing in, so are we just not supposed to fight any gang and stick to ganking ratters and running away, because they can warp in 1 ship and press a button to kill an entire roaming gang?

"Just kill the fighters!"
With what, the wrecks of our fleet that got 1-shot by 10km/s fighters with 35k alpha within 10 seconds of landing on grid?

---

Basically, this change has effectively killed the small gang roaming playstyle. Everybody and their alts have carriers. They are cheap and insurable. You're roaming to their space, if they can completely counter your gang with 1 ship and 0 piloting skill, why would anyone bring anything else to fight you?
I'm not saying carriers should be able to be killed by 5 guys in faction cruisers or perma held down by a linked interceptor, but when the answer to every roaming gang that comes to your area is a carrier, there's no point in roaming unless you're just looking to gank a ratter and run away.

All of this isn't even getting into how ridiculous they are at gate camping.
A carrier that can sit 5000km off a gate, aligned to a POS, instalock and 1-shot frigates and cruisers with drones already pre-positioned with 0 risk to himself is not okay or good gameplay.

I 100% support that carriers and fighters needed a buff, but the current change has killed small gang roaming and made 0 risk gate camping more of a reality than it ever was before.


Obviously some people like this change and think it's a good thing, others don't.
I'm just giving my input from the perspective of a small gang roaming viewpoint.

If I remember correctly, scramming fighters not shutting off the MWD is a known bug and will be fixed at some point. I'm not positive exactly what was said though, so I may be wrong.

Carriers absolutely do not lock faster than an interceptor. Interceptors have around 1000 scan res while carriers with an NSA active have around 900 and have to wait a server tick to tell fighters to lock you, then wait for the fighters to lock. So unless you're talking about preventing cloaking or using neuts, carriers are vastly slower to lock than interceptors. Their lock time including fighters is much more comparable to a cruiser.

They also have far from perfect damage application against subcaps. Sure, they do a ton of damage, but the main gun is abysmal against anything smaller than a battlecruiser, and the missiles don't apply anywhere near full damage below cruiser level (not that they need to).


Now as for how to deal with carriers, that's a bit harder. If you bring active tanked cruisers or smaller, it's quite likely you will get killed in one missle volley. That's just the way things work, and if you ran into 3-4 Tornadoes and a web ship, the outcome would be very similar. That can limit your options somewhat in a small gang setting. I'm honestly not sure how a small gang is supposed to deal with a carrier. Carriers are basically the gods of small-scale engagements against subcaps while being crap for anything else.

A lot of your complaint didn't seem to be so much about what carriers can do as how they're used. You may be running into carriers everywhere you go right now, but it won't take long before certain groups learn how people use carriers and start baiting them and killing the carriers. I mean if you look at my killboard, you can easily see I'm not afraid to use my carrier to oppress the little guys. I fully expect to eventually run into someone who has a cyno and drops the nasties on me, but so far it hasn't happened. When people do get set up to hunt carriers a bit more effectively, their use will drop back off as people become scared to use them again. They may be cheap relative to some other things, but they still cost around 450 mil for insurance, another 100-200 mil for even a low-end fit, and a bare minimum of 100 mil for fighters (more likely to be around 300-400 mil unless they expect to die).
Lugh Crow-Slave
#717 - 2016-05-13 04:10:18 UTC
And if you can't bring dreads kite the carries with t3ds orthrus or interceptors. Fighters are incredibly easy to kill if you focus them. However igor the km kill the fights down only to 3-4 fights at this point the carrier will have to recall and wait the reload or keep them out despite them now doing very little dps

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#718 - 2016-05-13 05:35:27 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
And if you can't bring dreads kite the carries with t3ds orthrus or interceptors. Fighters are incredibly easy to kill if you focus them. However igor the km kill the fights down only to 3-4 fights at this point the carrier will have to recall and wait the reload or keep them out despite them now doing very little dps

Or just abandon them for later.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#719 - 2016-05-13 06:18:43 UTC
This thread is now grossly over long.

Any sample fits to share that are functional?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#720 - 2016-05-13 07:16:53 UTC
Kayalia Noble wrote:
Fighter scan res is 800 base on Einherji II, still 3x a normal battlecruiser that you say they can't lock faster than.

Oh sorry, you're right, a 3x sebo cane can lock faster, how silly of me.
If we're doing that, a thanatos with an NSA and 2 sebos gets 2k scan res and locks faster now.
We can make pointless arguments all day, it doesn't change anything.

Obviously the answer to being one shot is have more tank, but when the only thing that isn't getting one shot are armor hacs and t3s, why don't we just remove every other ship from the game when the easy counter to them is just one carrier.



Once again, your ignorance of mechanics betrays you.

A thanatos CANNOT tackle you at that scan res.

Also you need to go research server ticks and how fast a carrier can then make the fighters even begin locking.


tl;dr: Learn the goddamned mechanics.