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[Citadels] Carriers

First post
Author
Gary Webb
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#521 - 2016-04-23 22:02:48 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Gary Webb wrote:
Since there is no Dread thread im just gonna respond here to something i saw a couple pages back.

Dreads fit with HAW's are going to die insanely quickly to capital fit dreads. there should be something like a mode switch where both sets of guns can be equipped and the mode can be switched as we can no longer refit in combat. put a timer on it or something so we are not just waiting to die to a blob of subs or a blap dread. What happened to everyhting allegedly having a counter? what do you guys think?

as for carriers, i am still extremely disappointed. not a word from CCP Larakin. all the isk I have invested in my fighters is going down the drain. I took a chance and trained for the t2 light fighters but it doesnt look like im ever going to get to/want to use them. the lack of regular drones on cariers gives them a stupidly small engagement profile and even then they do dog **** for damage against anything large enough for it to track and hit.

I really love the idea that ccp is trying to present us with more opportunities to use caps in PVP and PVE but PVP i think they have gone in a seriously bad direction and PVE has been all over the place. I'm just lost as to what they thought they were "fixing" with all these changes to carriers in paticular.

I mean i understand they are trying to prevent people botting with carriers but that means nerfing and overcomplicating for legitimate players.

DEVS PLEASE ADDRESS OUR FEEDBACK- EVEN A LITTLE BIT


Anti capital fit dreads should counter anti-subcap fit dreads with ease. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. And the counter to anti-capital fit dreads is A: Subcaps, B: Other anti cap Dreads, C: Titans and Supers. You know, basically everything that isn't a carrier. You are really bad at understanding this whole counter thing.

And by the way, angrily yelling at the devs for doing what you think is a poor job and not actually including any way you think they should be changed just makes you look like an idiot.


and failing to realize that there is an entire thread of proposed changes that havent been responded to and taking the time to talk tough and wave your internet pee pee just makes you look like an a hole. Its perfectly reasonable to desire some sort of response to 25 pages of discussion, at least to acknowledge that it has been read
Lugh Crow-Slave
#522 - 2016-04-23 22:03:28 UTC
As for the counter thing it's the same for all the other guns that shoot below their class. If you come up against a cruiser and toy have a rlml the fight is not going to go in your favor same thing of you come up against a battleship abs you have RHML.

Then as for them not being as good as they were that is to be expected they were very very overpowered in large numbers.


Also dreads are no longer going to be 2.5 they ate being brought down to about carrier price
Kirito Kid
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#523 - 2016-04-23 23:09:20 UTC
I feel like they hopefully have something up their sleeve, maybe something big they aren't telling us about, I would say give it time, and pray that it gets fixed.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#524 - 2016-04-23 23:13:20 UTC
Kirito Kid wrote:
I feel like they hopefully have something up their sleeve, maybe something big they aren't telling us about, I would say give it time, and pray that it gets fixed.


I'm more hopeful that by Monday they will have read over our suggestions and get something done b4 Wednesday we probably won't get any of the god ones like the on grid warping or drastic changes to the Ewar fighters do to the time they would take to implement.but ccp better not be hiding something they should have learned by now not to surprise us just b4 a launch
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#525 - 2016-04-23 23:16:28 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Your rants seem to be based more on "it don't want change" then any actual issues tough you do bring up the main ones.


Fax now don't even have enough cap to run without working against nuets and the new cap boosters are worthless even on the gal/minm fax.


There is nothing wrong with giving a jack of all trades ships a specific role but they need to make sure they are not severely out preformed in that role by cheaper and less skill intensive ships. So the idea of a dedicated anti sub cap carrier is not a bad thing but in its current state it can't fulfill that role properly.

I have also given up in support fighters being any better than ewar drones

I've been bringing up those issues for weeks.

Yeah they have become rants;
I want this change, I've spent over 100 hours on SISI with my characters trying to make these changes work for me and maybe others who play the same way as me.
I've spent HOURS responding in threads - Saying what you just said above (even including fits I used etc), leaving myself wondering if anyone actually reads the stuff others write or simply skim it and respond as if they did.

The most frustrating and annoying thing;
The lack of ANY sort of input from Devs is just so fukin annoying.
This whole "reveal at Fanfest", is just crap - Like this, that simply shows a screenshot of an Erebus that is supposed to represent some new faction titan.
NB; Faction carriers might go some way to explaining why current ones are so bad - They need development room for the more expensive factions ones.

As for "giving up on support fighters" - That is EXACTLY what CCP wants, if you don't care why should they bother putting in the effort to make them useful. Your helping CCP do lazy ineffective work and get away with it.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#526 - 2016-04-23 23:27:05 UTC
Gary Webb wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Gary Webb wrote:


as for carriers, i am still extremely disappointed. not a word from CCP Larakin. all the isk I have invested in my fighters is going down the drain. I took a chance and trained for the t2 light fighters but it doesnt look like im ever going to get to/want to use them. the lack of regular drones on cariers gives them a stupidly small engagement profile and even then they do dog **** for damage against anything large enough for it to track and hit.

DEVS PLEASE ADDRESS OUR FEEDBACK- EVEN A LITTLE BIT



Carriers don't need drones their superiority fighters eat frigs and desi and the attack fighters are OK against cruisers.


The problem with carriers isn't that they are not good it's that they are more expensive more limited and have a higher sp requirement than other ships that do the same thing. It's why I said range (and sensor strength)is all they really need now


thanks for the constuctive reply. I didnt intednt the caps to be "yelling". just to underscore it as being the most important point of the post.

I didnt not mean to imply I thought the problem was that carriers arent good, I was trying to say that the functionality of a ship I put a lot of time training into can no longer fill a role as well as it used to/it could be filled easier by another ship. I will grant you that the superiority fighters ae not something i have spend much time testing and I will admit that it my own problem. I will hop on sisi tonight and spend some serious time with them. and as for the counters, maybe im just a poor and have a hard time accepting that if i fit my ship to go after sub caps i will be helpless to anything larger and watch my 2.5 billion go boom. but thats just me. just cuz we can afford it doesnt meen we have to like it
As long as you keep your "superiority fighters" nice and close to your carrier (for quick easy recall) they may be somewhat effective. Personally I would not put a carrier on a grid that has real capitals (dreads, supers, titans) there, your just gonna die pointlessly. Unless of course your in the biggest of the 2 blobs, then you'll die as fodder, just for the killmails, not because your an actual threat during the fight.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#527 - 2016-04-23 23:33:07 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Your rants seem to be based more on "it don't want change" then any actual issues tough you do bring up the main ones.


Fax now don't even have enough cap to run without working against nuets and the new cap boosters are worthless even on the gal/minm fax.


There is nothing wrong with giving a jack of all trades ships a specific role but they need to make sure they are not severely out preformed in that role by cheaper and less skill intensive ships. So the idea of a dedicated anti sub cap carrier is not a bad thing but in its current state it can't fulfill that role properly.

I have also given up in support fighters being any better than ewar drones

I've been bringing up those issues for weeks.

Yeah they have become rants;
I want this change, I've spent over 100 hours on SISI with my characters trying to make these changes work for me and maybe others who play the same way as me.
I've spent HOURS responding in threads - Saying what you just said above (even including fits I used etc), leaving myself wondering if anyone actually reads the stuff others write or simply skim it and respond as if they did.

The most frustrating and annoying thing;
The lack of ANY sort of input from Devs is just so fukin annoying.
This whole "reveal at Fanfest", is just crap - Like this, that simply shows a screenshot of an Erebus that is supposed to represent some new faction titan.
NB; Faction carriers might go some way to explaining why current ones are so bad - They need development room for the more expensive factions ones.

As for "giving up on support fighters" - That is EXACTLY what CCP wants, if you don't care why should they bother putting in the effort to make them useful. Your helping CCP do lazy ineffective work and get away with it.



Oh I know exactly what you mean I have been doing similar things on sisi even dragging my alliance mates into it to help test abdominal what makes it worse is ccp is absent from their forums but they are all over reddit
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#528 - 2016-04-24 01:47:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Your rants seem to be based more on "it don't want change" then any actual issues tough you do bring up the main ones.


Fax now don't even have enough cap to run without working against nuets and the new cap boosters are worthless even on the gal/minm fax.


There is nothing wrong with giving a jack of all trades ships a specific role but they need to make sure they are not severely out preformed in that role by cheaper and less skill intensive ships. So the idea of a dedicated anti sub cap carrier is not a bad thing but in its current state it can't fulfill that role properly.

I have also given up in support fighters being any better than ewar drones

I've been bringing up those issues for weeks.

Yeah they have become rants;
I want this change, I've spent over 100 hours on SISI with my characters trying to make these changes work for me and maybe others who play the same way as me.
I've spent HOURS responding in threads - Saying what you just said above (even including fits I used etc), leaving myself wondering if anyone actually reads the stuff others write or simply skim it and respond as if they did.

The most frustrating and annoying thing;
The lack of ANY sort of input from Devs is just so fukin annoying.
This whole "reveal at Fanfest", is just crap - Like this, that simply shows a screenshot of an Erebus that is supposed to represent some new faction titan.
NB; Faction carriers might go some way to explaining why current ones are so bad - They need development room for the more expensive factions ones.

As for "giving up on support fighters" - That is EXACTLY what CCP wants, if you don't care why should they bother putting in the effort to make them useful. Your helping CCP do lazy ineffective work and get away with it.



Oh I know exactly what you mean I have been doing similar things on sisi even dragging my alliance mates into it to help test abdominal what makes it worse is ccp is absent from their forums but they are all over reddit
I stopped responding on Reddit once I realized such a large % of posters there don't actually play eve anymore but still love to throw their 2 cents worth in.

I did however find a fit for the Ninazu that can sustain cap with 3 remote reps running .
1 Capital T2 cap battery (to help reduce effectiveness of incoming neuts and give that bit more cap)
1 T2 and 2 Capital F-RX cap boosters (with navy charges)
5 capacitor power relays
1 T2 capital ancillary current router with 2 trimarks

Ehp (is dismal) poor resists + concord booster (which even in triage, with no resists won't help much) gives 552,813 EHP.

You can it seems combat refit the Fax's, as you don't get timers for repping (even if your rep target has a timer). I'm fairly sure this is a bug as Devs have stated you would not be able to combat refit.

If it is actually the case that Fax's can readily refit as required (having to wait one minute for a timer sees you die fast) - They all of a sudden become pretty useful (even taking into account the hulls will cost 50% than they should), as you can be fit for giving reps (all cap), then refit to defense when you get called primary (not a minute or so later).

Edit; You will need 64 navy capital navy cap charges for one triage cycle - not at all efficient or easy to do when your cargo hold only carries 28 which requires you to pretty much fill your fleet hangar with charges if your likely to be using the carrier for more than one triage cycle during a fight.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#529 - 2016-04-24 01:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Wait fighters can't be MJDed .... that has to be a bug right
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#530 - 2016-04-24 02:08:43 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Wait fighters can't be MJDed .... that has to be a bug right


Dunno why not. You can MJD bombs and ships (and drones I think). No real real reason why not on the MJD for fighter squads.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#531 - 2016-04-24 02:11:16 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Wait fighters can't be MJDed .... that has to be a bug right


Dunno why not. You can MJD bombs and ships (and drones I think). No real real reason why not on the MJD for fighter squads.


yeah drones work i bug reported i can't see why not and i can already see some one MJDing my target away from my fighters -.-
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#532 - 2016-04-24 02:32:29 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Wait fighters can't be MJDed .... that has to be a bug right


Dunno why not. You can MJD bombs and ships (and drones I think). No real real reason why not on the MJD for fighter squads.


yeah drones work i bug reported i can't see why not and i can already see some one MJDing my target away from my fighters -.-

Do your fighters follow the MJD'd target the 100 K or do you need to re-select it as a target.
If they just chase down the target, using their mwd, it is not really a problem as most can cover 100K fairly quickly but if you have to re-initiate what was the active target, it is bad. Not necessarily a bug, just poor fighter mechanics.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#533 - 2016-04-24 02:36:09 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Wait fighters can't be MJDed .... that has to be a bug right


Dunno why not. You can MJD bombs and ships (and drones I think). No real real reason why not on the MJD for fighter squads.


yeah drones work i bug reported i can't see why not and i can already see some one MJDing my target away from my fighters -.-

Do your fighters follow the MJD'd target the 100 K or do you need to re-select it as a target.
If they just chase down the target, using their mwd, it is not really a problem as most can cover 100K fairly quickly but if you have to re-initiate what was the active target, it is bad. Not necessarily a bug, just poor fighter mechanics.


I think he meant MJFG, the command destroyer mod. It's not jumping the fighters, which means if someone jumped the area including your fighters and the target being attacked, they wont be jumped too.

If they did get jumped by the MJFG like normal drones, bombs, ships, missiles, they would be able to continue attacking the target.

That would be the optimal gameplay mechanic.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#534 - 2016-04-24 02:50:06 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Wait fighters can't be MJDed .... that has to be a bug right


Dunno why not. You can MJD bombs and ships (and drones I think). No real real reason why not on the MJD for fighter squads.


yeah drones work i bug reported i can't see why not and i can already see some one MJDing my target away from my fighters -.-

Do your fighters follow the MJD'd target the 100 K or do you need to re-select it as a target.
If they just chase down the target, using their mwd, it is not really a problem as most can cover 100K fairly quickly but if you have to re-initiate what was the active target, it is bad. Not necessarily a bug, just poor fighter mechanics.


I think he meant MJFG, the command destroyer mod. It's not jumping the fighters, which means if someone jumped the area including your fighters and the target being attacked, they wont be jumped too.

If they did get jumped by the MJFG like normal drones, bombs, ships, missiles, they would be able to continue attacking the target.

That would be the optimal gameplay mechanic.
Yeah I did guess that which is why I asked if the fighters automatically chased down the moved target.
Not being able to MJFG squads of fighters I believe is intentional but if they chase down a target that has been jumped 100K away it is not so bad. If you have to start from scratch by re-sending fighters manually, it is just another somewhat broken mechanic for carriers to deal with.

Fighters should always pursue any target that is on grid, regardless of whether it moves 100K away or 1000. They have that target locked and engaged so should be able to follow it. No warping for fighters would mean if the target warps 1,000k away, you just recall fighters and find a new target as it would take way too long to reach them.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#535 - 2016-04-24 05:14:08 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Yeah I did guess that which is why I asked if the fighters automatically chased down the moved target.
Not being able to MJFG squads of fighters I believe is intentional but if they chase down a target that has been jumped 100K away it is not so bad. If you have to start from scratch by re-sending fighters manually, it is just another somewhat broken mechanic for carriers to deal with.

Fighters should always pursue any target that is on grid, regardless of whether it moves 100K away or 1000. They have that target locked and engaged so should be able to follow it. No warping for fighters would mean if the target warps 1,000k away, you just recall fighters and find a new target as it would take way too long to reach them.

They do continue to follow targets that MJD but depending on their distance from the destination they'll probably stop shooting. Even so, if someone moves 100km I'd probably want to switch targets rather than waiting for fighters to burn out there.

As for someone warping 1000km away, that will definitely break the fighters' pursuit since they can't orbit or shoot something in warp and they can't warp themselves after it.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#536 - 2016-04-24 06:59:53 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
As for the counter thing it's the same for all the other guns that shoot below their class. If you come up against a cruiser and toy have a rlml the fight is not going to go in your favor same thing of you come up against a battleship abs you have RHML.

Then as for them not being as good as they were that is to be expected they were very very overpowered in large numbers.


Also dreads are no longer going to be 2.5 they ate being brought down to about carrier price

Well, that's not really true with RLML because HM can't apply correctly to Cruisers even before links & afterburners & boosters come into the equation. But that's a problem with HM being bad, rather than RLML being OP. And the principle of undersized guns not fighting the same class well holds true in every other example I can think of.

Fighters won't follow a target that actually blip warps on grid, because warp breaks locks, or did last time I bothered to test. However if fighters also would warp on grid to chase a target (like a fancy MJD) that would be awesome, land them at a fixed range from their target which isn't quite in weapons range and you still allow people to run away, or lock them and shoot them before they attack, but you allow carriers to actually project to their lock ranges properly, rather than having shorter ranges than dread HAW's.
It's the same issue Heavy Drones have always had, made a hundred times worse.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#537 - 2016-04-24 07:19:21 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


Fighters won't follow a target that actually blip warps on grid, because warp breaks locks, or did last time I bothered to test. However if fighters also would warp on grid to chase a target (like a fancy MJD) that would be awesome, land them at a fixed range from their target which isn't quite in weapons range and you still allow people to run away, or lock them and shoot them before they attack, but you allow carriers to actually project to their lock ranges properly, rather than having shorter ranges than dread HAW's.
It's the same issue Heavy Drones have always had, made a hundred times worse.


no like i posted earlier it would be far more ballanced and provide better game play if you had to warp fighters yourself and they could not just warp to enemies. make it so they need to warp to things like BM or fleet mates and ofc only to things on grid
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#538 - 2016-04-24 08:00:21 UTC
So after flying a Nyx for a while I have to ask: Are the long range heavy fighters supposed to track like lights and hit like a truck from 45km? With a set of Termites I was doing obscene things to small ships that made light fighters seem useless by comparison.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#539 - 2016-04-24 08:06:09 UTC
I would also like to know why the dragonfly does not have racial range and why none of the superiority fighters have racial range. earlier in this thread it seemed important to ccp to keep racial drone attributes
Lugh Crow-Slave
#540 - 2016-04-24 08:07:56 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
So after flying a Nyx for a while I have to ask: Are the long range heavy fighters supposed to track like lights and hit like a truck from 45km? With a set of Termites I was doing obscene things to small ships that made light fighters seem useless by comparison.


They still do this O.o i had not looked at them since the first few days and thought those tracking numbers were place holders