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Signature radius and missiles, a logical fallacy in the game?
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asa asd
Doomheim
#1 - 2016-03-27 15:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: asa asd
Hello guys,

I am a relatively new player in EVE and there is something I dont get regarding signature radius in relation to missile damage.

First of all, according to EVE wiki:

1) "All ships are surrounded by an invisible bubble called its signature radius. This is the area that weapons see when they try to lock on to the ship. Generally, the bigger the ship, the bigger the bubble. .... When a missile crosses the signature radius of its target, it explodes"

2) "the actual damage number depends on target speed, missile speed, signature radius and so on"


Now, lets take a ship like Avatar (because I was able to find the actual size of the ship), with 14km in length, and 15,76km signature radius. There is a distance of 1.76km between the border of the signature radius and of the ship itself. Now, take any missile with explosion radius (60 meters up to 500 meters) you want to fire at the Avatar.

Now, if I fire a missile at Avatar for example, the missile will explode at the moment it touches Avatr's signature radius. With explosion radius of 50 meters (light missile), or even 500 meters(big one), considering the 1.76km distance of Avatar and the border of its siguature radius, the explosion radius of 500 meters will not even touch the ship. Simply put, the explosion is just too far away to do any damage to the ship. However, in EVE, somehow, in a strange universe, signature radius will have a positive effect on the damage it deals.

Theoretically, a frigate with 10km signature radius is invincible in this game (considering missiles only).

How it works:Illustration


Now I wonder, am I missing something or is the relation between signature radius in relation to misisle damage a logical fallacy?


Asa
pushdogg
relocation LLC.
#2 - 2016-03-27 15:51:34 UTC
asa asd wrote:
Hello guys,

I am a relatively new player in EVE and there is something I dont get regarding signature radius in relation to missile damage.

First of all, according to EVE wiki:

1) "All ships are surrounded by an invisible bubble called its signature radius. This is the area that weapons see when they try to lock on to the ship. Generally, the bigger the ship, the bigger the bubble. .... When a missile crosses the signature radius of its target, it explodes"

2) "the actual damage number depends on target speed, missile speed, signature radius and so on"


Now, lets take a ship like Avatar (because I was able to find the actual size of the ship), with 14km in length, and 15,76km signature radius. There is a distance of 1.76km between the border of the signature radius and of the ship itself. Now, take any missile with explosion radius (60 meters up to 500 meters) you want to fire at the Avatar.

Now, if I fire a missile at Avatar for example, the missile will explode at the moment it touches Avatr's signature radius. With explosion radius of 50 meters (light missile), or even 500 meters(big one), considering the 1.76km distance of Avatar and the border of its siguature radius, the explosion radius of 500 meters will not even touch the ship. Simply put, the explosion is just too far away to do any damage to the ship. However, in EVE, somehow, in a strange universe, signature radius will have a positive effect on the damage it deals.

Theoretically, a frigate with 10km signature radius is invincible in this game (considering missiles only).

Illustration


Now I wonder, am I missing something or is the relation between signature radius in relation to misisle damage a logical fallacy?


Asa


You are talking about a fallacy.....in a....game.....where we pilot spaceships with the physics of subamrines. You are way over thinking this dude.
asa asd
Doomheim
#3 - 2016-03-27 15:59:05 UTC
pushdogg wrote:
asa asd wrote:
Hello guys,

I am a relatively new player in EVE and there is something I dont get regarding signature radius in relation to missile damage.

First of all, according to EVE wiki:

1) "All ships are surrounded by an invisible bubble called its signature radius. This is the area that weapons see when they try to lock on to the ship. Generally, the bigger the ship, the bigger the bubble. .... When a missile crosses the signature radius of its target, it explodes"

2) "the actual damage number depends on target speed, missile speed, signature radius and so on"


Now, lets take a ship like Avatar (because I was able to find the actual size of the ship), with 14km in length, and 15,76km signature radius. There is a distance of 1.76km between the border of the signature radius and of the ship itself. Now, take any missile with explosion radius (60 meters up to 500 meters) you want to fire at the Avatar.

Now, if I fire a missile at Avatar for example, the missile will explode at the moment it touches Avatr's signature radius. With explosion radius of 50 meters (light missile), or even 500 meters(big one), considering the 1.76km distance of Avatar and the border of its siguature radius, the explosion radius of 500 meters will not even touch the ship. Simply put, the explosion is just too far away to do any damage to the ship. However, in EVE, somehow, in a strange universe, signature radius will have a positive effect on the damage it deals.

Theoretically, a frigate with 10km signature radius is invincible in this game (considering missiles only).

Illustration


Now I wonder, am I missing something or is the relation between signature radius in relation to misisle damage a logical fallacy?


Asa


You are talking about a fallacy.....in a....game.....where we pilot spaceships with the physics of subamrines. You are way over thinking this dude.



CCP even have a mathematical formula with natural alghoritm, and you are saying I am overthinking this?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2016-03-27 16:09:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
asa asd wrote:
Simply put, the explosion is just too far away to do any damage to the ship. However, in EVE, somehow, in a strange universe, signature radius will have a positive effect on the damage it deals.

Theoretically, a frigate with 10km signature radius is invincible in this game (considering missiles only).

How it works:Illustration


Now I wonder, am I missing something or is the relation between signature radius in relation to misisle damage a logical fallacy?

Okaaaay so...

1. In EVE in the graphics are a lie. No... really... they are.
The sever (and the code) does not see your ship as a ship. It sees everything as a sphere with a trajectory vector and stats inside of it.
All the graphics, explosions, and even alignment of your ship are done on the client end and is not precisely representative of what is actually happening.

2. Signature radius is there for calculation purposes. It is not an actual "physical" field, shield, or hitbox.
A Frigate with a sig radius of 60m will not be "physically larger" than a Frigate with a sig radius of 500m... other than to sensors and calculations that is.

3. Sig resolution on weapons define the minimum sig radius a target ship needs to be in order to potentially deal full damage.
For example: a light missile with a sig resolution/explosion radius of 50m means that it will potentially deal full damage against a ship with a sig radius of 50m or larger.
At this point, only speed is the damage mitigation factor (for missiles that is... turrets take tracking into account).

How did you Veterans start?
asa asd
Doomheim
#5 - 2016-03-27 16:13:45 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
asa asd wrote:
Simply put, the explosion is just too far away to do any damage to the ship. However, in EVE, somehow, in a strange universe, signature radius will have a positive effect on the damage it deals.

Theoretically, a frigate with 10km signature radius is invincible in this game (considering missiles only).

How it works:Illustration


Now I wonder, am I missing something or is the relation between signature radius in relation to misisle damage a logical fallacy?

Okaaaay so...

1. In EVE in the graphics are a lie. No... really... they are.
The sever (and the code) does not see your ship as a ship. It sees everything as a sphere with a trajectory vector and stats inside of it.
All the graphics, explosions, and even alignment of your ship are done on the client end and is not precisely representative of what is actually happening.

2. Signature radius is there for calculation purposes. It is not an actual "physical" field, shield, or hitbox.
A Frigate with a sig radius of 60m will not be "physically larger" than a Frigate with a sig radius of 500m... other than to sensors and calculations that is.

3. Sig resolution on weapons define what sig radius a target ship needs to be in order to potentially deal full damage.
For example: a light missile with a sig resolution/explosion radius of 50m means that it will potentially deal full damage against a ship with a sig radius of 50m or larger.
At this point, only speed is the damage mitigation factor (for missiles that is... turrets take tracking into account).


I know all of that, studied informatics myself, my point is that their story about signature radius is a myth.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2016-03-27 16:18:53 UTC
asa asd wrote:
I know all of that, studied informatics myself, my point is that their story about signature radius is a myth.

Which part? The whole formula is pretty simple when you accept it is all an abstraction.

How did you Veterans start?
pushdogg
relocation LLC.
#7 - 2016-03-27 17:02:44 UTC
asa asd wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
asa asd wrote:
Simply put, the explosion is just too far away to do any damage to the ship. However, in EVE, somehow, in a strange universe, signature radius will have a positive effect on the damage it deals.

Theoretically, a frigate with 10km signature radius is invincible in this game (considering missiles only).

How it works:Illustration


Now I wonder, am I missing something or is the relation between signature radius in relation to misisle damage a logical fallacy?

Okaaaay so...

1. In EVE in the graphics are a lie. No... really... they are.
The sever (and the code) does not see your ship as a ship. It sees everything as a sphere with a trajectory vector and stats inside of it.
All the graphics, explosions, and even alignment of your ship are done on the client end and is not precisely representative of what is actually happening.

2. Signature radius is there for calculation purposes. It is not an actual "physical" field, shield, or hitbox.
A Frigate with a sig radius of 60m will not be "physically larger" than a Frigate with a sig radius of 500m... other than to sensors and calculations that is.

3. Sig resolution on weapons define what sig radius a target ship needs to be in order to potentially deal full damage.
For example: a light missile with a sig resolution/explosion radius of 50m means that it will potentially deal full damage against a ship with a sig radius of 50m or larger.
At this point, only speed is the damage mitigation factor (for missiles that is... turrets take tracking into account).


I know all of that, studied informatics myself, my point is that their story about signature radius is a myth.


It's clear you have a strong desire to be right. You're right.

Does that do it for you?
asa asd
Doomheim
#8 - 2016-03-27 23:12:22 UTC
pushdogg wrote:
asa asd wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
asa asd wrote:
Simply put, the explosion is just too far away to do any damage to the ship. However, in EVE, somehow, in a strange universe, signature radius will have a positive effect on the damage it deals.

Theoretically, a frigate with 10km signature radius is invincible in this game (considering missiles only).

How it works:Illustration


Now I wonder, am I missing something or is the relation between signature radius in relation to misisle damage a logical fallacy?

Okaaaay so...

1. In EVE in the graphics are a lie. No... really... they are.
The sever (and the code) does not see your ship as a ship. It sees everything as a sphere with a trajectory vector and stats inside of it.
All the graphics, explosions, and even alignment of your ship are done on the client end and is not precisely representative of what is actually happening.

2. Signature radius is there for calculation purposes. It is not an actual "physical" field, shield, or hitbox.
A Frigate with a sig radius of 60m will not be "physically larger" than a Frigate with a sig radius of 500m... other than to sensors and calculations that is.

3. Sig resolution on weapons define what sig radius a target ship needs to be in order to potentially deal full damage.
For example: a light missile with a sig resolution/explosion radius of 50m means that it will potentially deal full damage against a ship with a sig radius of 50m or larger.
At this point, only speed is the damage mitigation factor (for missiles that is... turrets take tracking into account).


I know all of that, studied informatics myself, my point is that their story about signature radius is a myth.


It's clear you have a strong desire to be right. You're right.

Does that do it for you?


No. I wanted someone to point out to me that I was wrong, that is why I placed the quesiton here in the first place.
pushdogg
relocation LLC.
#9 - 2016-03-28 02:47:14 UTC
asa asd wrote:
pushdogg wrote:
asa asd wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
asa asd wrote:
Simply put, the explosion is just too far away to do any damage to the ship. However, in EVE, somehow, in a strange universe, signature radius will have a positive effect on the damage it deals.

Theoretically, a frigate with 10km signature radius is invincible in this game (considering missiles only).

How it works:Illustration


Now I wonder, am I missing something or is the relation between signature radius in relation to misisle damage a logical fallacy?

Okaaaay so...

1. In EVE in the graphics are a lie. No... really... they are.
The sever (and the code) does not see your ship as a ship. It sees everything as a sphere with a trajectory vector and stats inside of it.
All the graphics, explosions, and even alignment of your ship are done on the client end and is not precisely representative of what is actually happening.

2. Signature radius is there for calculation purposes. It is not an actual "physical" field, shield, or hitbox.
A Frigate with a sig radius of 60m will not be "physically larger" than a Frigate with a sig radius of 500m... other than to sensors and calculations that is.

3. Sig resolution on weapons define what sig radius a target ship needs to be in order to potentially deal full damage.
For example: a light missile with a sig resolution/explosion radius of 50m means that it will potentially deal full damage against a ship with a sig radius of 50m or larger.
At this point, only speed is the damage mitigation factor (for missiles that is... turrets take tracking into account).


I know all of that, studied informatics myself, my point is that their story about signature radius is a myth.


It's clear you have a strong desire to be right. You're right.

Does that do it for you?


No. I wanted someone to point out to me that I was wrong, that is why I placed the quesiton here in the first place.


Natural algorithm or not, you are playing a sci-fi/fantasy game.....there is no place for logic here. Theoretically you would be correct.

So let tell CCP together that their game needs to devoid of natural algorithms, so you can stop posting threads about logic and just get on with playing the game.
Aves Asio
#10 - 2016-03-28 09:26:58 UTC
"When a missile crosses the signature radius of its target, it explodes" You are focusing to much on this statement, i dont know if this is true but in either case its irrelevant and only adds to confusion.
asa asd
Doomheim
#11 - 2016-03-28 10:33:29 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
[quote=asa asd]

1. In EVE in the graphics are a lie. No... really... they are.
The sever (and the code) does not see your ship as a ship. It sees everything as a sphere with a trajectory vector and stats inside of it.
All the graphics, explosions, and even alignment of your ship are done on the client end and is not precisely representative of what is actually happening.

2. Signature radius is there for calculation purposes. It is not an actual "physical" field, shield, or hitbox.
A Frigate with a sig radius of 60m will not be "physically larger" than a Frigate with a sig radius of 500m... other than to sensors and calculations that is.

3. Sig resolution on weapons define the minimum sig radius a target ship needs to be in order to potentially deal full damage.
For example: a light missile with a sig resolution/explosion radius of 50m means that it will potentially deal full damage against a ship with a sig radius of 50m or larger.
At this point, only speed is the damage mitigation factor (for missiles that is... turrets take tracking into account).


To give a full answer to your post:

1) I am aware of this, nothing new.

2) I never said that it was physically larger? That is not my point. Exactly the sensors you mention will make the ship not physically bigger, but virtually. A definition: "The signature radius of your ship represents how large the electronic footprint of your ship is"

3) If CCP redefines signature radius, everything is fixed. For now, the theory is pretty much broken.
asa asd
Doomheim
#12 - 2016-03-28 10:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: asa asd
Aves Asio wrote:
"When a missile crosses the signature radius of its target, it explodes" You are focusing to much on this statement, i dont know if this is true but in either case its irrelevant and only adds to confusion.


Signature radius is defined as a digital footprint. As soon as it touches this footprint, it explodes. There is no such thing as 'focusing too much on a certain statement', this is not literature which can be interperted in many ways.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2016-03-28 11:29:28 UTC
asa asd wrote:
Aves Asio wrote:
"When a missile crosses the signature radius of its target, it explodes" You are focusing to much on this statement, i dont know if this is true but in either case its irrelevant and only adds to confusion.


Signature radius is defined as a digital footprint. As soon as it touches this footprint, it explodes. There is no such thing as 'focusing too much on a certain statement', this is not literature which can be interperted in many ways.

Well.... If you look at the damage calculation formula you see that all this signature radius does not make much sense anyway. If you want to hit the target IN SPACE you need to hit its structure and not some imaginary "signature radius". (just imagine how would you apply damage with your lasers if you hit signature and not structure of the ship itself).

Other thing is: missile damage application. For this you use explosion radius against signature radius. Yes, in theory the bigger the target the more damage from explosion it takes. But again: signature radius is simple digital footprint and has no connection to explosions and other physics.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Madrax573
Doomheim
#14 - 2016-03-28 11:48:26 UTC
LOL after 13 years we are still getting people arguing about the 'logic' of eve?!? ShockedRoll
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#15 - 2016-03-28 15:35:07 UTC
I do not believe that missiles land at the edge of a target for damage calculation purposes but rather hit the centre of the target.

The missiles own speed has no effect on damage. The only way to mitigate missile damage is a combination of your speed and sig to defeat the explosion velocity and explosion size.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#16 - 2016-03-28 16:36:14 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
I do not believe that missiles land at the edge of a target for damage calculation purposes but rather hit the centre of the target.

The missiles own speed has no effect on damage. The only way to mitigate missile damage is a combination of your speed and sig to defeat the explosion velocity and explosion size.



Ye. OP was just distressed over the ' bubble' analogy and how bad/incomprehensible it was when you visualize it. Not a big deal. Needs to be rephrased. Interpret the sig bubble as being the ship itself and not like a shield.
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#17 - 2016-03-28 17:41:59 UTC
OP, please see this and the next video. It may answer your questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT0itMrLt-0

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLNcBGfilII

Hydrostatic Podcast First class listening of all things EVE

Check out the Eve-Prosper show for your market updates!
Dungheap
DHCOx
#18 - 2016-04-02 00:18:54 UTC
asa asd wrote:
Hello guys,

I am a relatively new player in EVE and there is something I dont get regarding signature radius in relation to missile damage.

First of all, according to EVE wiki:

1) "All ships are surrounded by an invisible bubble called its signature radius. This is the area that weapons see when they try to lock on to the ship. Generally, the bigger the ship, the bigger the bubble. .... When a missile crosses the signature radius of its target, it explodes"

2) "the actual damage number depends on target speed, missile speed, signature radius and so on"


Now, lets take a ship like Avatar (because I was able to find the actual size of the ship), with 14km in length, and 15,76km signature radius. There is a distance of 1.76km between the border of the signature radius and of the ship itself. Now, take any missile with explosion radius (60 meters up to 500 meters) you want to fire at the Avatar.

Now, if I fire a missile at Avatar for example, the missile will explode at the moment it touches Avatr's signature radius. With explosion radius of 50 meters (light missile), or even 500 meters(big one), considering the 1.76km distance of Avatar and the border of its siguature radius, the explosion radius of 500 meters will not even touch the ship. Simply put, the explosion is just too far away to do any damage to the ship. However, in EVE, somehow, in a strange universe, signature radius will have a positive effect on the damage it deals.

Theoretically, a frigate with 10km signature radius is invincible in this game (considering missiles only).

How it works:Illustration


Now I wonder, am I missing something or is the relation between signature radius in relation to misisle damage a logical fallacy?


Asa


for game physics , the size of the ship model does not matter . the ship itself is a point , surrounded by it's sig radius .
.... When a missile crosses the signature radius of its target, it explodes"
and the diagram you linked appears to contradict this statement ; it shows the missile explodes when the missile's explosion radius intersects the center point of the ship , not the edge of the ship's sig radius . which complies with game mechanics .

otherwise you could put a 6 km. smartbomb on the aforementioned avatar , and the bomb's AOE would be 20 km... Shocked
pushdogg
relocation LLC.
#19 - 2016-04-02 06:27:26 UTC
Ships are way bigger than their Sig radius. So even if a missile was to cross said "bubble" it would be deep inside the ship.

This argument is just stupid, and I still can't help but post here whenever I see it.