EVE General Discussion

Actually I gave in depth descriptions of why I think an application that is only available to a limited subset of players who can build it that allows you to rake in trillions of isk is more of an advantage than a slightly more configurable set of voice comms that are freely available to all. The funny thing is that the fact that you have no good counterarguments and keep spouting "but you don't want to ban teamspeak so IWI is not a problem" actually solidifies my argument. If my arguments were weak you'd have no problem finding actual counters without having to resort to strawman arguments and personal attacks.

The proof is clear. Without their application IWI could not source the amount of ISK they do, and having trillions of isk rolling in is an undeniable advantage. Hell, even the people arguing against me aren't denying this, they are going down the route of "teamspeak also provides an advantage therefore IWI should not be banned unless TS is too" because they can't deny it and a desperate to find a counter.

You may want to revise those thoughts. CFC has a LOT more than 3-4T a week coming in. Maybe less now, but quite a bit more before the war started. If you really think the war coffers must be empty by now... Yeah, you don't basically AFK/multibox farm 4+ regions for 4+ years straight without having something to show for it.

I know you want to play up the victim role of the CFC, but in all honesty, you seem to be looking desperately for something to hold on to that without any real reason to do so. IWI is a fly on the wall at best when considering the funding CFC and MBC forces have on their own.



Again, you're trying to make it seem like IWI is the lynchpin of why CFC is being attacked right now. They are not. They were the catalyst, as i said, but nothing more. That said, you seem to be under the delusion that the CFC was playing 'fairly' all this time. Or do you really believe no one was exploiting the **** out of being able to rat/pve however much they wanted without being interrupted *at all* all this time up north?

I also think that it's rather funny, the concept of fair play being uttered by an (ex) CFC member. You may not have been paying attention for the past few years. Suddenly the tables turn and the game becomes unfair? It's not like CFC hasn't been meta'ing the crap out of the game...



Then why are you making such a huge fuss about IWI? They don't matter squat in the grand scheme of things, especially as others (a lot of whom are CFC members) are just as 'guilty' of doing the same things.


You truly seem to believe in the victim/saint role for the CFC for some reason. Maybe you would care to explain that, rather than harp on on something completely insignificant to what's actually going on? Really think for yourself here. Are you just repeating mittens' propaganda machine here without critical thought or do you actually believe that IWI is in some way fundamental to what is going on here? Unless of course you are part of said machine.

Except he stated that the RMT they had been involved in was serious. ther rules state that anyone selling ISK does receive a permaban, and all isk related to it is removed even if it is passed on to an unconnected third party, that's all normal every day business. Why this wasn't applied in this case is yet to be seen.

But that's not what anyone would be likely to classify as "serious" RMT. You're seriously trying to claim that the director of CCPs security counts unknowing third parties to RMT as involved in "serious" RMT deserving of a permaban? Gonna need you to cite a source on that one buddy.

Are you talking the actual CFC itself or individual members combined income? Because I have no issue believing that most nullsec ratters make 100m/week, but if you're suggesting the Imperium itself pulls in 4T per week after losses from taxes and moon goo, you're crazy.

And bear in mind as a comparison one banker from IWI is paying out a trillion a week and most of that is being covered by his income. That's one player.

You are also missing the point that CFC income is finite ant attackable. People are able to fly around destroying goons income. It's impossible to fly around and destroy IWI, since it's a third party application, not an in-game mechanic.

At the end of the day this has nothing to do with the Imperium specifically, it's to do with a third party application allowing a small number of players to outperform thousands of players with no ability to be countered. You're happy now because it's the Imperium being hit, but they could outclass any alliance they wanted to. We may as well congratulate them on their Palatine Keepstar now.

No, I'm not. I'm specifically avoiding that because like I said multiple times this isn't about a single conflict, this has been an issue for a long time and will continue to be long after the Imperium is dead. Your concept of what is "fair" appears to be pretty broken here, since you seem to think taking and defending space then utilising it is unfair. Strangely, you seem to have no problem with the Russian groups who have done this far far far more than Imperium groups have.

Because it's a third party application being used to gain an massive advantage. And guilty of what exactly? People like you tend to do this a lot, banging on about how guilty the Imperium are, then providing absolutely no examples of what it is they are doing. Probably because when you start writing it down you suddenly realise they are just players on an opposing team. You also seem to be unaware that I'm not an Imperium member.

Dear Lucas, you have voiced your opinion, which is fine and dandy, but you have been repeating the same (complaint - whinge - delete as appropriate) for quite some time, to no avail.

Supply CCP with actionable proof or give it a rest.

They've had proof, and they've now admitted to basically ignoring it. So back to voicing opinions.

You're veering away from the point - Again. You keep harping on about IWI, but it's crystal clear that that's not the actual problem. The CFC is being attacked, and is currently on the losing side, which is what the thread is about. IWI was brought up as a reason why it's happening, and how this is unfair. Then it was about 'how IWI is bad for the game' to divert attention away from the actual issue.



The problem is, it DOES have to do with the CFC. Otherwise you would never have brought it up in the first place. Who cares about IWI? No one was having a problem with it. Until the CFC got attacked, and then suddenly everyone in it adopted a holier-than-thou attitude about it 'because it's all IWI's fault'.

Who do you think would have gotten that keepstar otherwise, at the day of release, without anyone attacking them and giving them an ISK printing machine? IWI does not have any space you know. CFC did. CFC also still has just enough ISK and assets to deploy one if they reached deep into their pockets and got their stuff together.

Also: You are forgetting something. When someone attacks anyone, both sides are usually happy about it.. Any alliance outside of CFC LOVES being attacked. It means that they get to fight and have fun, it doesn't matter who or what is funding it. It's a videogame. It's supposed to be fun. The only people who didn't like to be attacked are the CFC, and the only times they did fight they employed bully tactics and metagaming as their weapons, because "we're not here to ruin the game, we're here to ruin your game".



You really need to get your head out of the sand. To name just one basic example: Can you say you've never used EFT? Or are you going to try and find arguments for why 'that doesn't count'? How about the countless corp and alliance tools that help manage any massive organization in the game? POS timer tools? For crying out loud, Microsoft Excel falls in that category and should obviously be banned, right? A lot of tools exist that help you maximize your ISK earning potential, maybe this one just sits closer to the metal than most.

And no, you are not a CFC member - Not anymore, not until very recently. However, you were member of the very alliance which started this entire conflict. In fact, this whole thing started because the SMA was screwing around with IWI, to take advantage of their system and stealing their stuff. They then hid behind a CFC screen of supposed invulnerability, which turned out to be just a smoke screen.

This actually is making your entire line of reasoning all the more delicious and amusing to read, so please, go on :)

As it stands now, there's waaaay too much on the table to start making predictions:

- Citadel and cap changes - Will this make smaller capital fleets viable inspite of the supercap dominance of MBC?

- Are horde actually having fun or is the pressure on O1Y hurting their morale and attendance? TMC says yes, reddit says no. Will Imperium win the station timer tonight when potentially the whole MBC might show up to help Horde defend?

- Are MBC splintering and in-fighting? Or are they just having gf's because of a lack of content from Imperium?

- Does MBC need the IWI funding to continue? As it looks now, even without the funding there's enough blood in the water and enough strength from even a fraction of the MBC to keep the north secured - but - as it stands, short of bans being reinstated (rightly or wrongly), this doesn't look like happening anyways.

- DJ and the 'old goons' / Imperium morale in general - Will this cause them to keep dropping members/strength? Dotlan says yes - for the moment. Even with the huge amount of allied corps that have folded into GSF they've just started to drop below 17k... although no-one knows for sure how many of those are real, active players.

Too many questions without concrete answers... but I don't think it looks good for Imperium... I don't think they're going to completely disappear either though.

he is far from delusional. CFC has always had a strong propaganda game going, and it's fairly obvious at this point he's an alt of his CFC main characters tasked with talking them up on the forums. Not anything new for CFC, but most of their propaganda/spin team are far less blatent about it.

Eli,

Thanks for the summary. I appreciate the perspective.