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To Mr. J. Syagrius, concerning his words about Caldari POWs

Author
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#1 - 2016-03-24 10:14:37 UTC
Discussions are made for sharing opinions, making your point of view to be understandable to others. And even if you can't convince the other side, at least make other side to understand your ideas. Discussions could touch even rather controversial and sensitive topics, for example, the existence of God. And claiming otherwise might hurt feelings of those, who believe in this with all their hearts. But still, since there are no factual proofs on existence of God (and can't be), it remains a philosophical topic. Someone can claim absence of God, and while others might insult him back that he would be a heretic, heathen, savage, and so on, this still will be his opinion. But if he would claim absence of... Scriptures, he will lose all his credibility and will be considered either as a complete idiot or a clown.

And that's what you, Mr. Syagrius, did. You've claimed absence of "Scruptures" equivalent in Caldari-Gallente relation discussion in your post here.

James Syagrius wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

I have popped open several of these gallentean hidden dens. If you wish to see for yourself the real cruelty and what gallentean "people" can do, I can send you the footage.
Moral equivalence is a dangerous thing indeed.

So the alleged detention of thousands is the same as the generational enslavement of billions….


You have dared to write it was an "alleged detention", where it is factual going on in the same moment as we speak. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of people are being held in Gallente prison camps and tortured by inhuman methods.

I have offered to send you footage, but even this isn't necessary, since every trained capsule pilot (except obvious mewling idiots, who can only bark on GalNet instead of flying) can see this with their own eyes. This isn't really hard to figure out what to do and where to go, since the information about these camps is easily accessible in GalNet, and even I myself have posted rather detailed information how to get there.

In the worst case, if you can't act on your own behalf and miss requirement qualities to think for yourself and plan your operations without help, you can simply work for one of Corporations, and sooner or later they will send you to help with prisoners with providing you with detailed instructions, that even the dulliest of pilots should be able to follow.

To see these prisoners for a capsule pilot is actually easier than to see a Scripture.

But, unlike Scriptures, they are alive people, who heroically have to endure gallentean tortures every day, and denying their existence is not simply an idiotic move, but also amoral, cruel and inhuman. Thus such words must not be taken lightly, and your comment about them is required. Since you dared to write them in public forum, your answer must be given here as well.

You, Mr. Syagrius, must now apologize for your words and state clearly, that detention of these people is factual, but not alleged. You must also show that you know where they are held and show what kind of treatment they receive. Also please note what kind of security they have to prevent their escape and what happens with other prisoners if at least one escapes.

Failure to complain would mean that your words are just a vain vibration of the air and all your following answers are to be discarded as ones of a fool.

If you can't confirm the information at the moment, it will be acceptable if you bring apologies for claiming things you were ignorant about, will leave IGS and dedicate your time for capsule piloting re-education to be able to pilot a ship to the extent required to witness gallentean prison camps.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
#2 - 2016-03-24 12:09:36 UTC
Why don't you just go ahead and post the footage here?
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#3 - 2016-03-24 13:16:34 UTC
Because it is too disturbing and will be censored. Besides, proving the obvious wasn't the goal of the discussion.

I could offer sending you footage privately, but on the other hand, considering your employment, most probably you already saw it already while doing it yourself.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
#4 - 2016-03-24 15:17:11 UTC
Then link to a third party host, people do that all the time. Why can't you?
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#5 - 2016-03-24 16:23:04 UTC
Hmm, looks like they have discontinued the GalNet information portal where information on all such sites was documented. I think it was called something like evelopedia?
But anyway, you could get some footage even from your NeoCom interface. Just type in "Caldari Prisoners of War" and check what the NeoCom will suggest you.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Mitara Newelle
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#6 - 2016-03-24 16:29:14 UTC
Commander Kim, is this the data you were looking for?

http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Caldari_Prisoners_of_War

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#7 - 2016-03-24 16:33:56 UTC
Thank you, Lady Newelle!
Though I was looking for the description of the Federation Detention Facility itself, it contained way more information.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
#8 - 2016-03-24 18:12:44 UTC
Great, we have once again proven that Caldari POWs exist. Now prove the exact number of POWs detained in such facilities.

Oh, what's that? You can't prove an exact number because of numerous perfectly legitimate reasons?

Oh, well in that case we are dealing with a number that is alleged to be in the thousands. See how that works?
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#9 - 2016-03-24 18:21:30 UTC
Stop playing an idiot Vero, it was written "alleged detention", not "detention of alleged thousands". I don't have time for such infantility.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2016-03-24 18:24:16 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Because it is too disturbing and will be censored. Besides, proving the obvious wasn't the goal of the discussion.

I could offer sending you footage privately, but on the other hand, considering your employment, most probably you already saw it already while doing it yourself.



Last week the State was slaughtering Guristas by the thousands, but that was ok, because they're pirates and the enemy.

Now you're here crying because the Gallente are treating your POWs bad?

Too bad Commander. You reap what you sow. The State proved it was willing to attack without quarter, don't come here begging for it from us.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#11 - 2016-03-24 18:57:04 UTC
Sinjin Mokk, I believe it's more so due to the fact that they are being held, treated inhumanely, and murdered by those who are of some moral high ground (as in not pirates, and supposedly supposed to be doing the exact opposite). It's such an outrage our allies commit such atrocities, it's not like the Caldari work with another super power who captures, inhumanely enslaves and kills their prisoners of war..... Oh wait.....
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#12 - 2016-03-24 23:09:29 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:

Last week the State was slaughtering Guristas by the thousands, but that was ok, because they're pirates and the enemy.

Now you're here crying because the Gallente are treating your POWs bad?

Too bad Commander. You reap what you sow. The State proved it was willing to attack without quarter, don't come here begging for it from us.


Are you even serious?..

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#13 - 2016-03-25 02:31:44 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Sinjin Mokk, I believe it's more so due to the fact that they are being held, treated inhumanely, and murdered by those who are of some moral high ground (as in not pirates, and supposedly supposed to be doing the exact opposite). It's such an outrage our allies commit such atrocities, it's not like the Caldari work with another super power who captures, inhumanely enslaves and kills their prisoners of war..... Oh wait.....

The State's stance on slavery is obvious. We do not tolerate it, and we do not tolerate our allies practicing it within our borders. What they do in their space is not something we can control, yet.

Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
#14 - 2016-03-25 02:40:52 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Stop playing an idiot Vero, it was written "alleged detention", not "detention of alleged thousands". I don't have time for such infantility.


That's because "detention of alleged thousands" sounds awkward and clumsy. Terrible composition. Gallentean is a language that values beauty over technicality. I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Nevertheless, "alleged detention of thousands" is a perfectly correct construction, just as my interpretation is a perfectly valid one. You've created this monstrosity of a thread, as usual, over the smallest of grammatical controversies.

Thank all the gods that none of us start topics every time you offend grammatical form.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#15 - 2016-03-25 02:50:27 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Sinjin Mokk, I believe it's more so due to the fact that they are being held, treated inhumanely, and murdered by those who are of some moral high ground (as in not pirates, and supposedly supposed to be doing the exact opposite). It's such an outrage our allies commit such atrocities, it's not like the Caldari work with another super power who captures, inhumanely enslaves and kills their prisoners of war..... Oh wait.....

The State's stance on slavery is obvious. We do not tolerate it, and we do not tolerate our allies practicing it within our borders. What they do in their space is not something we can control, yet.


I understand that, and fully agree. What the Gallante do on their side of the cluster is there problem, what the Amarr do on their side is not your problem either. If the.... More outspoken...... Members of the Caldari people denounce such actions maybe they shouldn't in the same vein sing the praises of a group doing as bad if not worse atrocities....
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#16 - 2016-03-25 03:31:51 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Stop playing an idiot Vero, it was written "alleged detention", not "detention of alleged thousands". I don't have time for such infantility.


That's because "detention of alleged thousands" sounds awkward and clumsy. Terrible composition. Gallentean is a language that values beauty over technicality. I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Nevertheless, "alleged detention of thousands" is a perfectly correct construction, just as my interpretation is a perfectly valid one. You've created this monstrosity of a thread, as usual, over the smallest of grammatical controversies.

Thank all the gods that none of us start topics every time you offend grammatical form.

There is a difference between "alleged detention of thousands" and "detention of alleged thousands", and if you can't see it, gallentean, then there's something wrong with your logical reasoning.

Besides, looks like you adore making a fool out of yourself. Since if it would actually would be even question of numbers, you would still hit face into mud. Because if you would work for Caldari Navy that would ask you to move 10,000 of liberated prisoners about every three month. And at any time you still can find these prisons still running. Thus, "thousands" is the lowest estimate of the number of currently held prisoners.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
#17 - 2016-03-25 03:40:35 UTC
Just like "billions" is a pretty low number to account for every slave who ever suffered Amarrian bondage.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#18 - 2016-03-25 04:32:14 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Sinjin Mokk, I believe it's more so due to the fact that they are being held, treated inhumanely, and murdered by those who are of some moral high ground (as in not pirates, and supposedly supposed to be doing the exact opposite). It's such an outrage our allies commit such atrocities, it's not like the Caldari work with another super power who captures, inhumanely enslaves and kills their prisoners of war..... Oh wait.....


Rinai Vero wrote:
Just like "billions" is a pretty low number to account for every slave who ever suffered Amarrian bondage.


This is a strange argument.

Are you really saying that it's okay for Gallente to violate their own values because the Amarr also violate Gallentean values?

... Even if the Amarr are not violating their own?

One Caldari critique of the Gallente centers on your inability to control your passions-- a tendency to get carried away, to let emotion rule where discipline is prudent, or necessary.

... like when your own identity is at stake.

The Gallente claim that certain rights are inherent to all individuals, regardless of where or who you are. It's from here that the Gallentean critique of other powers arises, and particularly the Amarr and Caldari. That idea seems to basically be to the Federation what faith is to the Amarr: a unifying, core identity. Something you believe in deeply. Something your civilization is built around, and depends on for its strength and stability.

If you let go of that ... I wonder what's left.

The corpse of Admiral Eturrer might suggest an answer. And a few terrorized prisoners, I guess.

(I don't think you're the same as the Amarr at all. But then, I don't think that's a very good comparison for this.)
Rinai Vero
Moira.
Villore Accords
#19 - 2016-03-25 04:53:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rinai Vero
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Rinai Vero wrote:
Just like "billions" is a pretty low number to account for every slave who ever suffered Amarrian bondage.


Are you really saying that it's okay for Gallente to violate their own values because the Amarr also violate Gallentean values?


No.

James Syagrius wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
So, to extend your hypothesis to gallenteans, their belief in democracy and freedom makes them cruel, inhumane and greedy racists. I have served for a year in the Empire and I can assure you, that cruelty of Amarr people is insignificant if you compare how Amarr treat their prisoners and how Federals treat them. Becoming a prisoner of war in the Empire will most probably end you being a slave, since it is common practice in the Empire to enslave criminals and prisoners of war to make them pay for their crimes. But even that would be better than finding yourself a prisoner in a gallente detention facility.
I have popped open several of these gallentean hidden dens. If you wish to see for yourself the real cruelty and what gallentean "people" can do, I can send you the footage.


Moral equivalence is a dangerous thing indeed.

So the alleged detention of thousands is the same as the generational enslavement of billions….

Caldari logic to be sure.



Syagrius made an argument, although not quite the one you paraphrased.

Kim is apparently too stupid to see the actual flaw in James' logic. I'll tell her if she asks nicely, though.
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#20 - 2016-03-25 05:07:22 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:

Kim is apparently too stupid to see the actual flaw in James' logic. I'll tell her if she asks nicely, though.

If anyone has deserved right to say I am not very smart, that's definitely not you, Vero, after your horrific failures.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

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