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What's become of the bounty system?
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Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2011-12-17 13:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Schnoo wrote:
Yeah, that example is unrealistic. There were some much better ones, also using a bit more complicated math on the F&I discussion forum.
But let's say you have a T2 harbi: 40mil~ ship and 30mil~ modules, with 20mil insurance (to ease calculating). In case his bounty is high (100+mil or anything higher than this calculation will give) you would probably get: (40mil - 20mil) * 0.5 + 30mil * 0.5 = 25mil. In case you also kill his pod (10mil clone and 30mil implants), you would get an additional 10mil * 0.5 + 30mil * 0.5 = 25mil, for a total of 50mil. That's not really bad for what you did (it's just a T2 harbi), but you will also get whatever he drops.

Now on a more expensive example, where the person with the bounty would have a T2/pirate cruiser or a T3, the payout would probably be much higher (due to lower insurance), about 200-350mil. The 0.5 modifier could be increased a bit, it is put in place to insure you can't easily clear your bounty for close for no cost.

But you mustn't forget, this also means that the player which had the bounty collected, will have his bounty reduced slightly, but will still have it on him (meaning the threat isn't completely removed).



Okay ... now this makes far more sense, except that it still not a good idea.

When i have 100 Million ISK bounty on my head,
i simply switch to a implant-less clone and only move around in thrashers.

Now, doing what the gate-gankers i know do,
i can continue sitting at a gate, waiting for haulers to gank,
because hell ... even IF somebody gets me,
it doesn't matter, because his payout is ridiculously low anyway.


See, the last guy i killed had 90 Million ISK on his head.
He was sitting at a gate, waiting for prey to kill.
I was sitting at that gate, waiting for him to finally get CONCORDed,
which was the only option to get to his pod.

He ganked, got CONCORDed, i killed his pod and collected 90 Million ISK.

Your new system would make that payout simply not worth the hassle.

As he is a typical gate ganker in a thrasher, the payouts would be so low,
it wouldn't even be worth the hassle ... besides myself getting CONCORDed too.

That's what seems to be forgotten ... shooting ships in highsec gets you killed too
and shooting pods is even far worse.... at least until CCP SoundWave really makes
pods with GCC legal targets ... which would be useless with that idea anyway.


You guys make me wonder if you actually ever tried being a bounty hunter ...
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-12-17 13:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: DarkAegix
Solstice Project wrote:

Quote:
San Holo then destroys Fred's fully fitted Estamel-Edition Uber Machariel with eleventy billion monocles and PLEX in the cargo bay worth 5,000,000,000bil ISK.


It's this. This makes you look like a troll. *lol*

I picked that example to show what would happen if you destroy someone's ship which is much more valuable than the bounty.
You don't get ISK from nothing, you only get paid up to the remainder left on the bounty.

The example before that was realistic, where the ship may be of low value.

I especially like this idea for ships rather than pods. Here are some very good reasons for this bounty system:
1. Accessible. Destroying a ship is easier than destroying a pod. More players will hunt for bounties
2. Serves its purpose. By having a price on your head, the added accessibility means that people WILL be hunting the target
3. The bounty is only paid out to hunters. By linking the financial impact on the guy with the bounty to the bounty paid, it's impossible to collect a bounty using an alt to earn ISK.
4. Realistic & makes logical sense. What's the one key thing you can take away from a character in EVE? Life? Nope. The character is simply reborn; life is irrelevant. Assets and finances? Yes. This is what the bounty system should be for.


EDIT
Also, Solstice, this bounty collection system means that you can actually collect bounties by:
1. Suicide-ganking the Thrasher (IRONY! Big smile)
2. Killing the pod (Bounty from clone & implant cost)
3. Killing him in his Drake while he's ratting to fix his sec status
4. Killing his juicy, loot-filled Iteron V while he's hauling (For massive financial damage, and thus massive payout)
Schnoo
The Schnoo
#23 - 2011-12-17 13:58:18 UTC
It's still better than the current system (why hasn't he just collected the 90mil is unknown to me). In the new system you would get at least 25mil from implants and clone if he's not an alt, and that would make it worth it - you still wouldn't get the thrasher value because CONCORD killed it, not you.

It's also true that the example you're showing is a bit contrived (much like the multi-billion Mach), and while it would give you a smaller payout than the current system, it's the only way to balance it if using publicly available and always paid out bounty system.

It's not the only way to go with fixing what we have now. By having contracts where you choose who's eligible to get the bounty or by confirming kills you're willing to pay for after they happen are ways to do it as well (although it feels more like mercenary work to me). Other things that have been suggested are doing bounty "missions" where the system picks a random person with bounty and you're given the task to kill him.

This reminds me, I should create a topic on the F&I (and probably link it on General Discussion so it doesn't die out), linking and shortly describing all current popular bounty ideas, to see if we can fix it without having new "fix the bounty system" thread every week, which focus on the things already discussed.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2011-12-17 13:59:16 UTC

The system may make sense for lowsec, but it doesn't help at all against highsec gankers.
They'd just laugh about anybody killing them and getting CONCORDed for a tiny bit of ISK.

I know that it seems i'm only focusing on highsec-gankers. That's simply because there's a need
for a counter to them ... or, to put it in other words: They need more SPICE in their life as gankers.

That said, now maybe reads "NERF GANKERS!!!", which is the last thing i'd want,
because then i would have to stop what i'm actually quite enjoying,
even if i'm only annoying them and messing with their killboards a bit. ^^

Oh btw ... just a quick thought that came up ...
What if the bounty would be a relative amount of the players ISK ?
If he has no money in his wallet, it could easily go negative too ...

Hm.

Please note ... your idea seems to make sense ... but it doesn't work for highsec.
And there needs to be a way for bounty hunters to operate in highsec too,
else people with huge amount of bounty but above -5 would just stay there ...
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2011-12-17 14:02:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Schnoo wrote:
(why hasn't he just collected the 90mil is unknown to me)


There are plenty of people who take pride in their bounty and wouldn't dare killing themselves for it.

That specific guy though ... he didn't know about it.
I know that, because he told me. ^^

His bounty was at 20 Million two hours before i killed him.
An hour before i killed him, somebody raised it to 90 Million ISK.

As for the contracts ... this would rule out the majority of players,
because a system like this would favor those who get the most kills
and makes way for easy manipulation.

The corp with the most members that have bounty could make a mirror corp out of alts,
killing others with bounty ... including themselves ... so they can look legit,
but actually laugh their ass off about idiots who believe they have found someone to trust.

My proposal ... making pods with GCC legal targets ... is a start, at least.
Hopefully it gets implemented soon(tm).
Schnoo
The Schnoo
#26 - 2011-12-17 14:10:39 UTC
Well, another thing regarding that kill of yours, the bounty didn't really serve it's purpose (except you getting richer, props to you).
Even if it meant he would get killed, if the only thing he'd lose is an implantless low SP clone worth less than the thrasher, it doesn't matter much for him. The guy paying the money for his bounty, probably didn't have that in mind (unless it was worth losing 70mil in addition to that hulk or whatever got suicided).

Regarding wallet math, there were some proposals about removing ISK from the wallet of the guy with the bounty. Example: you put 50mil on John Doe's bounty. John Doe gets killed and loses 50mil which then gets transferred to the killer. I personally don't like that much as it would lead to heavy griefing (putting 1bil bounty on a Hulk player then suicide killing him for a lot of damage).
Selene D'Celeste
The D'Celeste Trading Company
ISK Six
#27 - 2011-12-17 14:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Selene D'Celeste
For the record, I would love to see the current bounty system scrapped and replaced with something that adds valuable gameplay to EVE.

Visit www.eohpoker.com and enjoy EVE's oldest ISK gaming service!
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2011-12-17 14:18:08 UTC
Schnoo wrote:
Well, another thing regarding that kill of yours, the bounty didn't really serve it's purpose (except you getting richer, props to you).
Even if it meant he would get killed, if the only thing he'd lose is an implantless low SP clone worth less than the thrasher, it doesn't matter much for him. The guy paying the money for his bounty, probably didn't have that in mind (unless it was worth losing 70mil in addition to that hulk or whatever got suicided).

Regarding wallet math, there were some proposals about removing ISK from the wallet of the guy with the bounty. Example: you put 50mil on John Doe's bounty. John Doe gets killed and loses 50mil which then gets transferred to the killer. I personally don't like that much as it would lead to heavy griefing (putting 1bil bounty on a Hulk player then suicide killing him for a lot of damage).


Yeah, there's not much hassle for any ganker i kill, except having to get a new clone.
I'd still not want that what i do have nerfed, though. *lol*

Well... bounty can only be put on players with negative sec status, so most of the most hulks would be safe anyway.

Oh and ... the victim probably lost quite a big amount of money, because the people i'm after mostly
shoot haulers or frigs that use the AutoPilot. They deserve to die anyway, though. ^^
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2011-12-17 14:18:40 UTC
Selene D'Celeste wrote:
For the record, I would love to see the current bounty system scrapped and replaced with something that adds valuable gameplay to EVE.


And i'd LOVE to see that combined with something that makes the life of gankers spicier. ^^
Schnoo
The Schnoo
#30 - 2011-12-17 14:32:21 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Selene D'Celeste wrote:
For the record, I would love to see the current bounty system scrapped and replaced with something that adds valuable gameplay to EVE.


And i'd LOVE to see that combined with something that makes the life of gankers spicier. ^^

I can imagine it being linked to kill mails and kill rights. F.e Tom the ganker kills Joe the miner, doing 300mil worth of damage. Joe, having a kill mail and kill rights, in retaliation, puts a bounty, up to 300mil on Tom, paying the decided value (f.e 200mil) to the system. Tom now has a 200mil bounty on him. If someone were to kill Tom, Tom is forced to pay an amount (100-200mil?) to the bounty hunter. Bounty hunter gets up to 200mil ISK total, the rest is an ISK faucet.

However, this is walking on thin ice, and can end up being really bad or not practical at all - what if the ganker has no ISK? Ganking alts that have 0 ISK but get ships from their main character would function just fine, tying it with other characters could fix that but may cause other problems.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#31 - 2011-12-17 14:43:11 UTC
the bounty system does not fit to eve. Wild west style does not work with clone game mechanics.

see below

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Ghoest
#32 - 2011-12-17 14:55:36 UTC
How it should work.

1 The payout for any one kill = clone cost + market cost of implants

2 Pods with bounties should be legal targets in high sec

Wherever You Went - Here You Are
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#33 - 2011-12-17 15:03:32 UTC
Schnoo wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
Selene D'Celeste wrote:
For the record, I would love to see the current bounty system scrapped and replaced with something that adds valuable gameplay to EVE.


And i'd LOVE to see that combined with something that makes the life of gankers spicier. ^^

I can imagine it being linked to kill mails and kill rights. F.e Tom the ganker kills Joe the miner, doing 300mil worth of damage. Joe, having a kill mail and kill rights, in retaliation, puts a bounty, up to 300mil on Tom, paying the decided value (f.e 200mil) to the system. Tom now has a 200mil bounty on him. If someone were to kill Tom, Tom is forced to pay an amount (100-200mil?) to the bounty hunter. Bounty hunter gets up to 200mil ISK total, the rest is an ISK faucet.

However, this is walking on thin ice, and can end up being really bad or not practical at all - what if the ganker has no ISK? Ganking alts that have 0 ISK but get ships from their main character would function just fine, tying it with other characters could fix that but may cause other problems.


It's not walking on thin ice, it's plain stupid. There have been literally dozens of decent proposals for a new bounty system over the years. Yours is not one of them and a system where the bounty is in any way paid by the ganker makes no ******* sense. They paid for their aggression by other game mechanics already, so what you're suggesting is stealing money directly from their wallets for no good reason.

A good bounty system needs to be player funded. The victims of aggression should be the ones funding it and they need to get satisfaction for the money they invest. The only flaw in the current system is that they can't get that satisfaction and so they lack a reason to invest money in it. All that really needs to happen is to make killing ships give partial bounty that is valued lower than the market value of the ship and modules fitted. Faction/deadspace/officer stuff can even be paid by mineral value, since the loot drop is a huge reward in itself. Bonus points for bounty hunter contracts, that allow aggressing a specific target with a bounty in highsec. Add to that killright trading in some form and you've got something worth implementing.
Ira Theos
#34 - 2011-12-17 15:07:28 UTC
Like everything else in EVE...

It's perfect, so don't complain.

Straight
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2011-12-17 15:09:30 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
... plain stupid.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#36 - 2011-12-17 15:12:50 UTC
Ghoest wrote:
How it should work.

1 The payout for any one kill = clone cost + market cost of implants

2 Pods with bounties should be legal targets in high sec

i think you would like my bounty system proposal

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Schnoo
The Schnoo
#37 - 2011-12-17 15:14:16 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Schnoo wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
Selene D'Celeste wrote:
For the record, I would love to see the current bounty system scrapped and replaced with something that adds valuable gameplay to EVE.


And i'd LOVE to see that combined with something that makes the life of gankers spicier. ^^

I can imagine it being linked to kill mails and kill rights. F.e Tom the ganker kills Joe the miner, doing 300mil worth of damage. Joe, having a kill mail and kill rights, in retaliation, puts a bounty, up to 300mil on Tom, paying the decided value (f.e 200mil) to the system. Tom now has a 200mil bounty on him. If someone were to kill Tom, Tom is forced to pay an amount (100-200mil?) to the bounty hunter. Bounty hunter gets up to 200mil ISK total, the rest is an ISK faucet.

However, this is walking on thin ice, and can end up being really bad or not practical at all - what if the ganker has no ISK? Ganking alts that have 0 ISK but get ships from their main character would function just fine, tying it with other characters could fix that but may cause other problems.


It's not walking on thin ice, it's plain stupid. There have been literally dozens of decent proposals for a new bounty system over the years. Yours is not one of them and a system where the bounty is in any way paid by the ganker makes no ******* sense. They paid for their aggression by other game mechanics already, so what you're suggesting is stealing money directly from their wallets for no good reason.

A good bounty system needs to be player funded. The victims of aggression should be the ones funding it and they need to get satisfaction for the money they invest. The only flaw in the current system is that they can't get that satisfaction and so they lack a reason to invest money in it. All that really needs to happen is to make killing ships give partial bounty that is valued lower than the market value of the ship and modules fitted. Faction/deadspace/officer stuff can even be paid by mineral value, since the loot drop is a huge reward in itself. Bonus points for bounty hunter contracts, that allow aggressing a specific target with a bounty in highsec. Add to that killright trading in some form and you've got something worth implementing.

I'm well aware of what I wrote there is rather bad, but I'd love to see you come up with a way to counter high sec ganking alts (no implants, low sp clones) with bounties - which is what I was replying to. It's probably just not possible.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2011-12-17 15:23:01 UTC
Schnoo wrote:
I'm well aware of what I wrote there is rather bad, but I'd love to see you come up with a way to counter high sec ganking alts (no implants, low sp clones) with bounties - which is what I was replying to. It's probably just not possible.



I'd be happy if i could shoot pods with GCC legally ... then more people will put up bounty on them, too.
I just have to wait. :)
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2011-12-17 15:55:00 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:


I'd be happy if i could shoot pods with GCC legally ... then more people will put up bounty on them, too.
I just have to wait. :)


What's the profit like? Not that I suppose that matters all that much to you.
Are there really that many people with a half decent bounty on them around? I admit it's not something I take much notice of at the moment.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#40 - 2011-12-17 16:35:45 UTC
Torin Corax wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:


I'd be happy if i could shoot pods with GCC legally ... then more people will put up bounty on them, too.
I just have to wait. :)


What's the profit like? Not that I suppose that matters all that much to you.
Are there really that many people with a half decent bounty on them around? I admit it's not something I take much notice of at the moment.

the current system is broken. Nobody uses it except those who don't know about the exploits (mostly new players or uninformed casual players). If there would be an eve-like bounty system it would be certainly used more often.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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