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[Citadels Release] New Tactical Overlay on Singularity!

First post
Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises
The Craftsmen
#41 - 2016-03-30 14:06:52 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:

Shalmon Aliatus wrote:
Could you add drone range as well ?
Good idea, we will look into it.

Drone control as in drone control range and if possible also the optimal/falloff on sentry drones (or maybe even all drones, not sure how hard it would be, maybe if you hover over the drone in space ?)
Masao Kurata
Caldari State
#42 - 2016-03-30 14:47:37 UTC
Ho hum, since you're working on this for better or for worse... this might be an out of place feature request, but I think when cloaked, proximity warnings on the tactical overlay would be a good addition for objects within 4km (whether the bracket for them is enabled or not).
Ja'e Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2016-03-31 07:36:39 UTC
Hmm, that's a really interesting change.

I'm using the tactical overlay all the time, and I like the idea behind this change. Although it does feel weird and unintuitive in some situations (much like the old one, it wasn't perfect).

But first a couple things to consider to improve its overall appearance, and relevant things have already been said by Eli and others, so I won't repeat those.
- Because it (the new tactical overlay) blends in much better and feels unobtrusive, the dot showing the projection on the XY plane is way too faint imo and is harder to read than on the previous tactical overlay.
- It could maybe be worth to make the optimal versus fall-off indicators more differentiable (maybe different color or way more remarkable color shade?)

So, with the new one, the nice thing is that it always shows the accurate distance from things around you, and in most situations, works like the old one (when things are somehow more or less in the XY plane).
The huge difference is felt when things are directly below/above you.

My first issue with it is when you have a lot of things below/above you, reading it feels really unintuitive compared to the old one. I took wrecks in this screenshot ie.

Second thing is, because of how things are projected on the plane, it skews the perception of speed compared to how it was perceived with the previous one. Let's check this exemple.
If I move a couple meters on the left, the projection of the amarr sentry gun on the plane is going to move around super fast.
Of course in that exemple, the amarr sentry gun is immobile, but imagine this with ships if you wish, my own ship being immobile and the target ship moving a little bit on the right above me.

With the old tactical overlay, the speed at which the projected point could move was between 100% of the ship actual speed (if it's moving exactly in the XY plane) and 0% (if it's moving only in the Z dimension, or up/down if you prefer).
With the new tactical overlay, the speed of the projected point can be between 0% and infinity.

It does make a radical change, because the information we get from the tactical overlay is really different.

Let me first emphasize that I don't know if it's a good or bad change, and I'm not arguing for or against the new versus the old tactical overlay.
But it will take time to adapt to the new one for sure, not so much because it looks and handles different (like when we have to get used to a new UI or a new camera because we're used to the old one), but mainly because the information we get from it is different.
I don't know about others, but my brain isn't particularly fond of working with radial projections, but there again it may just be because I'm used to how it worked with the old one.

Ok last thing is, a very specific use-case that you may not have thought about.

When I make bookmarks (and especially insta-undock bookmarks), I regularly use the plane projection on the current tactical overlay to position myself directly above or below something (a can, or a station sometimes if the in-space station bracket is aligned with the undock direction, like with several amarr stations).
There's no real workaround to do the same thing with the new tactical overlay, afaik. Can't say I'm going to unsub my 75 accounts over this, but it does remove something I'm using frequently and will be a minor annoyance, to me, in the future.

PS: I apologize for butchering any technical / mathematical terms, I'm not a native english speaker =)
Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises
The Craftsmen
#44 - 2016-04-01 10:55:16 UTC
Some things show a different distance on XY plane, which is really annoying. For example, if you undock from a gallente outpost, the cloning service says it's 24km away, the tactical overlay shows a dot at 30km
Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#45 - 2016-04-01 13:36:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
You have made very minor improvements to a terribly outdated feature so don't bring out the champaign just yet.

The tactical overlay should be used when you need to get a wide view of the battle field but still enable you to have precise control of your ship. It fails at that!

At the very least, i want an icon added to clearly indicate the vector of my ship and I want the picture-in-picture camera for selected objects that was mentioned so many years ago at fanfest.

Also, why have you removed the vertical line that connects another object to your own ships plane? You should have improved this feature by making the "elevation line" of objects above you blue and below you, red.

... I can't for the life of me think why you decided to remove the sphere of a modules influence and replaced it with a flat 2D circle Straight

Over all rating: 5/10 - colours and space north are nice but other things are missing/worse
Ja'e Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2016-04-02 09:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ja'e Ambraelle
Ok, after thinking about it for a while, I will add a couple more things about why I now think that the paradigm shift in how information is displayed is worse in my opinion. And I may meet Rek and what he said about what the improvements focus should be for the tactical overlay.

First let me clarify that except for some things others and I mentionned previously, it's visually much better as far as colors and readability and all that jazz compared to the old one, and that's great.

The first question we have to answer, before deciding whether or not the new one is better as to how information is displayed, is why are we using the tactical overlay today.
The answer to that question is of course really subjective, I'm only offering my own answer to that question and it will differ from player to player.

(1) I've always had some trouble grasping the 3d aspect of eve online, because the game is how it is and when you zoom out I just see a blurb of icons; I have to move my camera around a lot before understanding where things are around me in space.
That's the first and main reason I'm using the tactical overlay today, as it simplifies that process a lot and I need a lot less camera moves to see where things are and whether or not they're moving towards me.
(2) The same issue arise when trying to grasp distances from things visually.
That's the second reason I use the tactical overlay, because distances are written down, and because of the range bubbles, it helps a lot understanding really quick how far away things are from me.
(3) Related to the previous one, having a quick glance at my modules optimal range / fall-off is really useful as well.

So that's the 3 main reasons why I'm using the tactical overlay today. Let's see if the new tactical overlay improves anything there.
To build up on my previous post, let's just remind ourselves that for most things more or less within the XY (horizontal) plane, nothing really changes, but it changes a lot for things below or above. And let's keep in mind as well the other remarks: speed perception and how the new one skews that a bit, some new things I may need to get used to, etc.
I'm not sure those are the correct terms, but let's use perpendicular projection (the old one) versus radial projection (the new one).

(→1) That's the main thing for me, and I'll argue that it's not better and may be worse in some situations.
I don't think I need to explain why it's easier to understand where things are in 3d environment like eve with the perpendicular projection.
There you could argue that it's about getting used to it, and it's partially true, and I'd argue that you'll need a lot more time to get used to the radial projection compared to the perpendicular one, and the radial one doesn't help make it easier even after getting used to it.
If you only have a couple of things in space around you, it's not that hard to get where they are even with the radial one. When there are a lot of things around, especially directly above or below you, it's way harder imo. It's just a blurb of curved lines going in every direction and not helping readind the position of things in space.

(→2) What the radial projection succeed at doing, is giving an accurate read on distances of things around you, which on paper sounds super cool.
Unfortunately, I would argue there again that it's not much better and maybe worse in most situations.
First reason: The old tactical overlay already allows a quick read and estimate at distances (because when you zoom out and you see the 50km, 100km rings, you can tell if things are more or less at that range even with things directly above or below you) and when I want an accurate read of distances today (and tomorrow) I can look at the overview.
Second reason: building up on (→1) and realizing that understanding where things are around you isn't made easier and even made harder when there are a lot of things on grid above and below, having an accurate read on distances on the tactical overlay itsefl doesn't help because it's harder to tell which ship it belongs to (curved lines ... same arguments).

(→3) It's related to the (2) really, and even if the read on optimal / fall-off isn't harder (and maybe even better because as I said at the beginning, the new one is less clutered and unobstrusive), because of (→1) and (→2) it's not much of an improvement in the end.

What I think would be a good improvement, is working on the tactical overlay to make it easier to, first, pilot your ship and see where you're going, and second, estimate the speed and direction of things around you, things the new one doesn't do at all (see my previous post as to why it's even worse for speed imo, even if the old one wasn't great either).
As Rek said previously, vectors would be nice, but maybe hard to implement?

Well that's my 2 cents anyway.

TL;DR: Radial projection doesn't make things better: for things above and below you, it doesn't improve spatial awareness nor speed perception, sometimes worsens it. The only good thing it does is giving accurate distances, which you can already do with the overview and partially estimate with the current perpendicular projection.
#47 - 2016-04-03 08:45:54 UTC
Since 2005 I've used the tactical overlay for one reason only, to easily see the optimal and falloff range in every direction of every weapon or module.

Flat red marker simply does not achieve the same effect, and is less subtle in my opinion.

I agree that there is no need for the permanent sphere whatever that was for, but I don't like the idea of living without that amazing perfect subtle hover over module/weapon range sphere.
Even the new curved lines linking npc's and such to the overlay would compliment it.

I like everything else about it.
#48 - 2016-04-03 09:01:59 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
BroodAlpha wrote: <- Screenshot of my tactical overlay in use

So using the old tactical overlay I can clearly see at all times my targeting range and the range of my guns if I so wish on any axis by hovering over them. With the new overlay, I cannot accurately judge targeting, optimal or falloff ranges on any axis other than the flat plane positioned on my ship. I can see the ship trace curve but I can't see people entering and exiting ranges for targeting and different modules. The red area on the plane with the dotted line isn't good enough, it doesn't account for all the possible locations in 3D space a ship could be.

In a game where almost every offensive module has a range of some sort, being able to accurately judge it is paramount.

I want to know the moment that a ship enters my targeting radius, I don't want to have to eyeball it. The tactical overlay right now is essential to good play and being able to judge distances.

I just don't feel that this new overlay (while being very pretty and shiny) will give me the information I need as fast as the old one.

In short, I want to keep my bubbles, or at least have the option to keep them.

I think your short 'Nope' to keeping it was harsh.

Actually, it does account for all possible locations in 3D space. It is a direct, precise and constant indication of distance from you. Keep your eye on where the trace curve intersects your ship's plane. That tells you the distance from you to the target no matter where the target is in space, whether below you, above, to the side, or in between. As soon as that intersection point crosses your range indicator (whether it be locking, optimal or falloff range) you know the ship is in range. No eyeballing required.

He was talking about the ranges of modules and weapons nothing to do with a target or distance from it.
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2016-04-04 11:19:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
Spherical projection to always show precise distance to your ship is a feature that can be amazing in some situations, and also amazing p.i.t.a. in some other ones (see above for just two examples).

Please add option to switch between vertical and spherical projection.

TBH, don't put it on TQ without legacy version fallback.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Ja'e Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2016-04-04 15:30:47 UTC
Indeed, giving an option to switch between the old and new projection would be nice.
We have 3 cameras now, I'm sure the 2 kind of projections for the tactical overlay can cohabit.
Jeff Morpox
Pure Victory
#51 - 2016-04-05 11:03:51 UTC
Love the new Tac!
Prime FLux
Caldari State
#52 - 2016-04-05 15:44:11 UTC
Is it possible to get a Speed / direction vector arrow for the locked targets? To visualise the velocity and direction of other ships?

Dimitrios Bekas
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#53 - 2016-04-06 18:08:36 UTC
@CCP Turtlepower

PLEASE,i beg you... implement the simple option to deactivate those blue dots around the HUD.

At the moment you can only disable/enable both, the bookmarks on grid and the dots or nothing.

I have about 300 Tactical Bookmarks in HED-GP and those blue dots around my HUD are screwing up my framerate.
Eve Engine calculates the 360Degree Position all the time for some goddamn blue dots i don´t want to see.

Just the simple option "optional Markers around HUD" yes or no.

PLEASE PLEASEEEEEEE (crying like a baby)...

CCP Turtlepower
C C P Alliance
#54 - 2016-04-07 14:03:48 UTC
Shalmon Aliatus wrote:
Some things show a different distance on XY plane, which is really annoying. For example, if you undock from a gallente outpost, the cloning service says it's 24km away, the tactical overlay shows a dot at 30km

This is being worked on, we hope to have an update to this mechanic on sisi next week.
Prime FLux wrote:
Is it possible to get a Speed / direction vector arrow for the locked targets? To visualise the velocity and direction of other ships?

This is something we really want to do, but will probably not be able to finish for the Citadels release.

CCP Turtlepower
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2016-04-09 14:42:38 UTC
Team Psycho Sisters,

I've noticed a faint line in my ship's plane that corresponds to an object's 0km edge. That's exactly the information I was looking for. It's subtle though. Almost too subtle? I don't currently have any suggestion to change it, just wanted to let you know I saw it and like it.

I also notice that when there are multiple targets on grid, and I'm hovering my mouse over a gun or launcher, when the range circle shows up all projection lines within the optimal circle are bright while all projection lines outside the circle are dark. Makes it extremely clear which targets are in range and which aren't. Nice!

Are the red circles brighter now? They seem brighter than what I remember. They're easy to see, which I like.

Also, I continue to just really like the new overlay. When I landed on grid with 30 targets nearby, it was immediately clear that they were all between 30 and 50 km range.

For people who liked the grey sphere to help determine relative distances - perhaps code in a very, very subtle red sphere when mousing over an offensive module? Or make that a selectable option.

Finally for today - imagine what you could do in collaboration with the client team and the VR team to bring room-scale VR to EVE with the Vive and Rift, where a player could walk through and around the grid. Cool
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2016-04-10 16:14:35 UTC
And now that I can again sit in a Citadel after the mirror, I see that the ranges start from the edge of the "ship" rather than its center. Very nice, thanks!
Lugh Crow-Slave
#57 - 2016-04-17 22:11:50 UTC
Something that would be huge is if the overlay appeared where I was looking at when I opened it. So if I'm using look at on a ship or a drone or a fighter and I then open the overlay it would open on that ship done or fighter. I could then reset it by closing it looking back at my ship and reopening it.
Red Deck
The Tebo Corp
Herd Of Cats
#58 - 2016-04-25 14:10:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Deck
If the new overview icons introduced some time ago made my life really worse and forced me to use workarounds to make the overview somewhat usable again, it was nothing compared to how miserable my EVE life is going to be with this new, non-optional tactical overlay.

I can't express how terrified I am about this. Seriously.

The radial projection is so much worse compared to what we have now. Objects not projecting a dot-connected-with-a-line on the XY plane my ship is in is a disaster for me (insta bookmark making and all).

With the only real advantage of the new overlay being accurate distance information (arguments presented by earlier posters), make it an optional tactical overlay mode. If someone finds it useful, let him/her use it. But don't take the current tactical overlay away, it's got very important features that are simply not available in the new version.

The current tactical overlay enhances the 3D view in a way that makes the 3D easier to "see" (for me anyway).
So much easier that I have it on almost all the time.

The new tactical overlay does not.
Secret Services
#59 - 2016-04-25 21:16:02 UTC

That was fast. Not sure if that kicked the development but Thank You! :)

Feels like my wish came true!
Lugh Crow-Slave
#60 - 2016-04-26 11:08:54 UTC
SecretService wrote:

That was fast. Not sure if that kicked the development but Thank You! :)

Feels like my wish came true!

I can only seem to get this to work with carriers hire do you manage on other ships