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Citadels are now on Singularity

First post
Author
Blue Harrier
#41 - 2016-03-18 21:00:07 UTC
So in-between the restarts this is my first impressions (please remember I have just passed my 70th birthday so tend to write in a verbose manner, sorry).

First I purchased an Astrahus medium Citadel, you need a ship that can carry 8,000m3 to transport it so not a big problem for most small corps.

My first try at deploying it went haywire, one because we had a sudden 1 min shutdown warning, the second because I couldn’t understand what to do.

Launching the ‘egg’, ‘deploy module’ call it what you will brings up a small popup with some very brief instructions (with a disable tick box), clicking the [OK] box takes you on to the next very brief menu bar (which hid itself under the chat window and caused me a minor problem).

Note: the title bar of the popup window has a placeholder (yes WIP, I know).
Note 2: clicking [Cancel] at any point did not as I expected drop me back one level but cancelled the whole operation and put the ‘egg’ back into my cargo hold, so I had to start over.

The main screen also dimmed and nothing seemed to happen, it wasn’t until I rotated up I noticed the ‘rings’ and ‘numbers’ of the tactical display and the Citadel Model did I realise I needed to be zoomed out really far to get an overall view.

Note: some kind of auto-zoom might be useful at this point (easy when you know how but confusing otherwise).

Moving the Citadel model into position was pretty easy but being colour blind I had to ask which was correct for the deployment position. Most of you will work it out just fine LOL.
Setting the times on the next page was a bit hit and miss but you can’t activate the Citadel until you get it right.

At this point my Citadel was deployed and normally you would have to wait 24 hours for it to ‘hatch’ but a very kind Dev popped in and onlined it for me. It looks amazing, pretty lights everywhere, docking ports all lit up and marker lights all over the place.
Dropping down at full warp in my Helios from above was a real wow moment (I wish I could have videoed it for you).
One annoying thing was the ‘Tether’ sound, the tether itself is ok (ish, don’t know how it will work with many ships), but the sound is way too loud and does not fade with distance (wip?).

Before I closed for the evening I deployed an XL Citadel (800,000 m3), I’m leaving this to deploy normally to see if it works OK.

All this is in a 0.7 system in case anyone asks.

"You wait - time passes, Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold." from The Hobbit on ZX Spectrum 1982.

Somebody TheGreat
Somebody's Corp
Care Factor
#42 - 2016-03-18 21:21:40 UTC
So much awesome!

3 Concerns though:

1: Being tethered does NOT prevent being bumped out of tether range.

2: Activating a titan's jump portal array, or a Rorqual's industrial core cause tether to drop.

3: You can not safe log while tethered, and if you close game / disconnect, you warp off. (And can be probed etc.)
Dern Morrow
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#43 - 2016-03-18 21:42:43 UTC
I haven't seen this in the notes, so I wanted to mention:

As a wormhole dweller, it would be very useful to be able to use the POS component construction array to construct structure components. Presently you can't, it won't let you build structure components in a POS.

Thanks in advance! Super excited for Citadels.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2016-03-18 22:32:47 UTC
Do citadels follow the same Corp roles mechanic that POSes use?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#45 - 2016-03-19 00:05:47 UTC
are teh manual fighter controls not added yet?


also anti sub cap missiles are not seeded
Erin Aldent
Eagle Wing Industries
Central Omni Galactic Group
#46 - 2016-03-19 00:09:47 UTC
Groups seem rather broke right now, can't seem to add members to said groups, i will try toying w/ them later.
Petrified
Grimm Hounds
SONS of BANE
#47 - 2016-03-19 00:38:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrified
Rigs seem to be ignoring size restrictions. I was able to install L and XL rigs an on Astahus. No warnings or errors. Bug reported it.

Also, can't seem to remove the rigs once placed.

There is another issue I am trying to work out that relates to the cloaking timer being stuck "on" - though I am not cloaked, whether i am in station, in space, or docked at a citadel. Does not change when changing ships or jumping systems. Only solution is to log off which removes it. I did not bug report it as when I logged back in, it was cleared, however, it came back after I had some latency causing me to emergency warp after jumping - the emergency warp took me to a random location, but did not warp me back to the gate. The cloak timer icon is resistant once again. Just getting screen shots to submit a bug report for that.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Shade Millith
xHELLonEARTHx
Simple Farmers
#48 - 2016-03-19 02:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
If these things are intended to replace POSes, a 3 hours of vulnerability per week for the medium citadel is complete insanity, and will massively hamper smaller groups from being able to attack them, only helping large alliances with multiple TZ presences.

I'd have expected at least 1-3 hours daily. At least then you can alarmclock it on the weekend. As it is right now a Medium Citadel can be setup so that only one TZ will ever be able to anything about it. The large and XL aren't any better.

You need to change the vulnerability timer to a daily thing, like the Entosis vulnerability time for stations/TCU/IHUB, or this is going to destroy small groups ability to attack them.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#49 - 2016-03-19 03:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
so uuuh light fighters shooting fighters
Lugh Crow-Slave
#50 - 2016-03-19 03:21:48 UTC
Shade Millith wrote:
If these things are intended to replace POSes, a 3 hours of vulnerability per week for the medium citadel is complete insanity, and will massively hamper smaller groups from being able to attack them, only helping large alliances with multiple TZ presences.

I'd have expected at least 1-3 hours daily. At least then you can alarmclock it on the weekend. As it is right now a Medium Citadel can be setup so that only one TZ will ever be able to anything about it. The large and XL aren't any better.

You need to change the vulnerability timer to a daily thing, like the Entosis vulnerability time for stations/TCU/IHUB, or this is going to destroy small groups ability to attack them.


no they are not meant to replace outposts


all new structures together are meant to together

and the med size are just to replace outposts

the other structures will have a much bigger vulnerability window the citadels job is simply meant to protect assets that is it. and unlike outposts you can place as many as you want so they will not give such an advantage
Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Digital Vendetta
#51 - 2016-03-19 03:54:14 UTC
Erin Aldent wrote:
Groups seem rather broke right now, can't seem to add members to said groups, i will try toying w/ them later.


I noticed the same thing. I love the drag and drop but

CCP please add a pop out window in the groups that list every alliance in game, with check boxes that allow/disallow docking.
From what I can tell, there is no standings control, so there is no generic don't let -5/-10 from docking. And having to drag and drop everyone is going to be massive time sink.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Shade Millith
xHELLonEARTHx
Simple Farmers
#52 - 2016-03-19 04:11:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
no they are not meant to replace outposts


all new structures together are meant to together

and the med size are just to replace outposts

the other structures will have a much bigger vulnerability window the citadels job is simply meant to protect assets that is it. and unlike outposts you can place as many as you want so they will not give such an advantage


The more I think about it though, the more I see issues.

Can we jumpclone to them? Do you require sov to place them down (Right now on SiSi you don't need it)? If the answer is yes and no respectively, this is going to be exploitable as hell. A bigger group can stick one of the mediums, for basically no cost (1-2 bil is nothing), with the vulnerability timer completely outside the TZ of hostiles, inside their main systems.

Put jumpclones there, and a couple of ships, and you have instant ability to suddenly flood the system with your ships. Start a fight on their undock with a few frigates, and if anything interesting aggresses, you suddenly jump clone 20 people into system with Gilas.

There needs to be more timers for them to be hit, or much heavier restriction on where they can be placed. Otherwise these things are going to be exploited the hell out of, and smaller groups are going to suffer massively.
Petrified
Grimm Hounds
SONS of BANE
#53 - 2016-03-19 04:53:41 UTC
Shade Millith wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
no they are not meant to replace outposts


all new structures together are meant to together

and the med size are just to replace outposts

the other structures will have a much bigger vulnerability window the citadels job is simply meant to protect assets that is it. and unlike outposts you can place as many as you want so they will not give such an advantage


The more I think about it though, the more I see issues.

Can we jumpclone to them? Do you require sov to place them down (Right now on SiSi you don't need it)? If the answer is yes and no respectively, this is going to be exploitable as hell. A bigger group can stick one of the mediums, for basically no cost (1-2 bil is nothing), with the vulnerability timer completely outside the TZ of hostiles, inside their main systems.

Put jumpclones there, and a couple of ships, and you have instant ability to suddenly flood the system with your ships. Start a fight on their undock with a few frigates, and if anything interesting aggresses, you suddenly jump clone 20 people into system with Gilas.

There needs to be more timers for them to be hit, or much heavier restriction on where they can be placed. Otherwise these things are going to be exploited the hell out of, and smaller groups are going to suffer massively.


It creates tactical versatility. Also, please remember something crucial about Citadels: unlike POSes they cannot defend themselves on their own.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Digital Vendetta
#54 - 2016-03-19 05:03:26 UTC
Petrified wrote:
Shade Millith wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
no they are not meant to replace outposts


all new structures together are meant to together

and the med size are just to replace outposts

the other structures will have a much bigger vulnerability window the citadels job is simply meant to protect assets that is it. and unlike outposts you can place as many as you want so they will not give such an advantage


The more I think about it though, the more I see issues.

Can we jumpclone to them? Do you require sov to place them down (Right now on SiSi you don't need it)? If the answer is yes and no respectively, this is going to be exploitable as hell. A bigger group can stick one of the mediums, for basically no cost (1-2 bil is nothing), with the vulnerability timer completely outside the TZ of hostiles, inside their main systems.

Put jumpclones there, and a couple of ships, and you have instant ability to suddenly flood the system with your ships. Start a fight on their undock with a few frigates, and if anything interesting aggresses, you suddenly jump clone 20 people into system with Gilas.

There needs to be more timers for them to be hit, or much heavier restriction on where they can be placed. Otherwise these things are going to be exploited the hell out of, and smaller groups are going to suffer massively.


It creates tactical versatility. Also, please remember something crucial about Citadels: unlike POSes they cannot defend themselves on their own.


First and foremost - most of your questions where covered in dev blogs months ago.

Yes - a hostile force could come in and set a medium up for staging
They would have to defend it during set up, because if someone can keep effectively aggressive it, the time extends.
You have to maintain fuel runs to the citadel to keep the clone system online and working.

This means both parties will have to adopt and grow. If they don't, they will burn in what ever hell New Eden has.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Shade Millith
xHELLonEARTHx
Simple Farmers
#55 - 2016-03-19 05:04:35 UTC
Petrified wrote:
It creates tactical versatility.


Placing an unattackable base of operations, where you can teleport to at will, with stored ships and equipment, within your enemies home and ratting systems, because they do not have the correct TZ to attack it, is 'tactical versatility'?

This isn't 'Tactical versatility'. It's a death knell for smaller groups that can't muster the fleet to attack the thing for over an hour during their lowest TZ while being unable to defang it.


Petrified wrote:
unlike POSes they cannot defend themselves on their own.


And a unmanned POS is dead in the water to any half arse group. To defend itself with any kind of effectiveness it needs to have 6-7 people manning it, and those people be prepared to defend it at any time.

A Citadel needs just one single person, for 3 pre-chosen hours per week. A single alt can cover it with complete ease.
Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Digital Vendetta
#56 - 2016-03-19 05:15:02 UTC
Shade Millith wrote:
Petrified wrote:
It creates tactical versatility.


Placing an unattackable base of operations, where you can teleport to at will, with stored ships and equipment, within your enemies home and ratting systems, because they do not have the correct TZ to attack it, is 'tactical versatility'?

This isn't 'Tactical versatility'. It's a death knell for smaller groups that can't muster the fleet to attack the thing for over an hour during their lowest TZ while being unable to defang it.


Petrified wrote:
unlike POSes they cannot defend themselves on their own.


And a unmanned POS is dead in the water to any half arse group. To defend itself with any kind of effectiveness it needs to have 6-7 people manning it, and those people be prepared to defend it at any time.

A Citadel needs just one single person, for 3 pre-chosen hours per week. A single alt can cover it with complete ease.



Not sure why an Infamous guy is worried about this? Do you guys even own SOV?
Or is more along the line, that your hunting ground will have structures you all can't attack because it isn't your TZ?

Everyone in this game already knows that once this stuff goes live, ever Tom, **** and Herry will cruise down to Prvoi to cause all manner of mischief and test these out in much larger fleet fights than the test server will ever see.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Shade Millith
xHELLonEARTHx
Simple Farmers
#57 - 2016-03-19 05:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
Amarisen Gream wrote:
Not sure why an Infamous guy is worried about this? Do you guys even own SOV?
Or is more along the line, that your hunting ground will have structures you all can't attack because it isn't your TZ?

Everyone in this game already knows that once this stuff goes live, ever Tom, **** and Herry will cruise down to Prvoi to cause all manner of mischief and test these out in much larger fleet fights than the test server will ever see.


Funny. Ad-hominem attacks. Check Dotlan. INFAMOUS has more sov and outposts than we know what to do with. We also have enough people to deal with multiple TZs

Shockingly enough, some people actually care about the people who aren't me.

A Medium Citadel on SiSi is as easy as BLOPsing in a BR, Citadel guns/mods shipped in by JF in perfect safety when it's finished, harder to find out about before it goes online than a POS, is capable of holding jumpclones and as many ships as you can put in it, and is insanely easier to defend than a POS, AND anything inside of it isn't lost when it's destoryed. And costs almost nothing.

You thought having a hostile staging tower in your space was bad, this is 10 times worse and 10 times harder to remove.

To me that is a massive buff to the power projection of larger alliances that only works against smaller groups.

There needs to be a time each day that you can attack them. At least then small groups can have the weekend to do something about it.

EDIT: Or Entosis points like on outposts now to shut down services. Or make it more obvious that one is being deployed in a system and who, with multiple points during construction when it's vulnerable. Maybe a warning to people owning sov that X alliance is putting one down.

These things aren't vulnerable enough to attack, and are too easy to put down in hostile space.
Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Digital Vendetta
#58 - 2016-03-19 06:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarisen Gream
Shade Millith wrote:
Amarisen Gream wrote:
Not sure why an Infamous guy is worried about this? Do you guys even own SOV?
Or is more along the line, that your hunting ground will have structures you all can't attack because it isn't your TZ?

Everyone in this game already knows that once this stuff goes live, ever Tom, **** and Herry will cruise down to Prvoi to cause all manner of mischief and test these out in much larger fleet fights than the test server will ever see.


Funny. Ad-hominem attacks. Check Dotlan. INFAMOUS has more sov and outposts than we know what to do with. We also have enough people to deal with multiple TZs

Shockingly enough, some people actually care about the rest of the players of this game. Including the people that won't be capable of deal with this kind of thing.

A Medium Citadel on SiSi is as easy as BLOPsing in a BR, Citadel guns/mods shipped in by JF in perfect safety when it's finished, harder to find out about before it goes online than a POS, is capable of holding jumpclones and as many ships as you can put in it, and is insanely easier to defend than a POS. And costs almost nothing.

To me that is a massive buff to the power projection of larger alliances that only works against smaller groups.

There needs to be a time each day that you can attack them. At least then small groups can have the weekend to do something about it.



Perhaps I should reword my point -

CCP has known this for a while. I know I have seen or talked about in the other threads many times. As it stands right now, CCP won't make any changes tell after the fact. This is the same thing that happened with Fozzie SOV, it wasn't tell after Goonswarm trollceptor Provi, CCP realized their folly.

I put the Citadels in the same boat as the SOV changes - the next three patches after will get them into the proper(ish) setting.

Edit:
What would be best IMO
High-sec, low-sec, NPC Null-sec they can be anchored as they are now.

Player Owned Null-sec should be limited to the SOV holder Alliance's corps. But allow anchoring by others (nuets/blues/reds) but it would have penalties, like longer online time, increased vulnerability timers etc that make it a little easier defend against.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Lugh Crow-Slave
#59 - 2016-03-19 07:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Amarisen Gream wrote:


Player Owned Null-sec should be limited to the SOV holder Alliance's corps. But allow anchoring by others (nuets/blues/reds) but it would have penalties, like longer online time, increased vulnerability timers etc that make it a little easier defend against.




you mean exactly what is happening?




cits put up in sov null with out controll and index will have a longer recharge timer and i'm sure ccp will expand on this after some tq testing
Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Digital Vendetta
#60 - 2016-03-19 08:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarisen Gream
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Amarisen Gream wrote:


Player Owned Null-sec should be limited to the SOV holder Alliance's corps. But allow anchoring by others (nuets/blues/reds) but it would have penalties, like longer online time, increased vulnerability timers etc that make it a little easier defend against.




you mean exactly what is happening?




cits put up in sov null with out controll and index will have a longer recharge timer and i'm sure ccp will expand on this after some tq testing



As of the last things I saw - there is no difference between SOV holder and other corps putting up Citadals in Null.
Mediums for all groups is 3 hrs a week.
No fuel reduction cost differences
No onlining differences

Only difference as you listed is repair time - 60 minute window is pretty big. If your group can't keep applying DPS to keep a Cit from repairing in that much time. Might not deserve your space.

Most of the stuff that was to balance all the placement was scrapped months ago.

I will go back an read the dev blogs again, as something might have changed or I misunderstood it.

Edit: reread this https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/citadels-sieges-and-you-v2/

I would advise you to do so as well

EDIT 2: now as I was taking a little walk, I thought about this.
SOV holding Alliance Leadership gets a pop out window expander on the structure window
It list the new structures as they come out with a checkbox below the three size types
They have to allow at least one size to be anchored by any one outside their Alliance.

This would allow SOV holders to have some control on what can be anchored in their space, while still giving hostile groups an option.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs