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[Citadels Release] Capital Ship changes reaching Singularity!

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Author
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#361 - 2016-04-07 07:42:50 UTC
Sekeris wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
is it intended that the gal FAX does shield RR and the minm does Armor

currently the CPU/PG forces this set up

ofc none of the FAX seem to have enough cpu/pg so idk


Look at the faction mods, they are much reduced in fitting (shield booster upto 90tf!), and seem to the only way to effectively make use of the fitting room on all capitals...

Sure, but those will probably be going for about 400-700 mil each, so it adds up very fast.
Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights
#362 - 2016-04-07 08:14:45 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Sekeris wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
is it intended that the gal FAX does shield RR and the minm does Armor

currently the CPU/PG forces this set up

ofc none of the FAX seem to have enough cpu/pg so idk


Look at the faction mods, they are much reduced in fitting (shield booster upto 90tf!), and seem to the only way to effectively make use of the fitting room on all capitals...

Sure, but those will probably be going for about 400-700 mil each, so it adds up very fast.


I am aware of that, and i think the difference is too big. Afterall on a carrier 90tf will also fit you ~3 drone mods. The difference should be reduced to ~30tf.

For illustration the following gains could be made between T2 and faction per mod, depending on item:

Armor rep local:
18-23 tf lower
18.75-25k mw lower
380-980 gj/activation lower
980-1920 rep amount higher

Armor rep remote:
10-12 tf lower
22.5-30k mw lower
150-550 gj/activation lower
-35-105 rep amount lower/higher
1300 m base falloff+optimal higher

Shield boost local:
70-90 tf lower
11.25-15k mw lower
380-980 gj/activation lower
760-1360 boost amount higher

Shield boost remote:
30-35 tf lower
15-20k mw lower
140-740 gj/activation lower
-50-150 boost amount lower/higher
1300 m base falloff+optimal higher

The range & rep or boost amount looks ok for the price increase, but the fitting and activation costs look pretty big. More so on the CPU where 30 tf reduction can fit a drone dmg aug on a carrier. Power is not so much of an issue i would say, since that is balanced for capitals. The CPU doesnt change all that much, and while i am sure relatively this fits in with other mods, because the numbers are so big the final result is somewhat overwhelming. Other new capital mods show a similar picture in fitting reduction with faction. If you use a few capital mods you can easily free up 100-200 tf cpu with faction mods (depending on armor or shield fit).
Thercon Jair
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#363 - 2016-04-09 10:08:05 UTC
Are we going to see a FAX specific thread soon? The release window is drawing ever closer yet there is no aggregated thread for these new ships, that are basically mandatory in any cap fleet.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#364 - 2016-04-09 11:10:00 UTC
Sekeris wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Sekeris wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
is it intended that the gal FAX does shield RR and the minm does Armor

currently the CPU/PG forces this set up

ofc none of the FAX seem to have enough cpu/pg so idk


Look at the faction mods, they are much reduced in fitting (shield booster upto 90tf!), and seem to the only way to effectively make use of the fitting room on all capitals...

Sure, but those will probably be going for about 400-700 mil each, so it adds up very fast.


I am aware of that, and i think the difference is too big. Afterall on a carrier 90tf will also fit you ~3 drone mods. The difference should be reduced to ~30tf.

For illustration the following gains could be made between T2 and faction per mod, depending on item:

Armor rep local:
18-23 tf lower
18.75-25k mw lower
380-980 gj/activation lower
980-1920 rep amount higher

Armor rep remote:
10-12 tf lower
22.5-30k mw lower
150-550 gj/activation lower
-35-105 rep amount lower/higher
1300 m base falloff+optimal higher

Shield boost local:
70-90 tf lower
11.25-15k mw lower
380-980 gj/activation lower
760-1360 boost amount higher

Shield boost remote:
30-35 tf lower
15-20k mw lower
140-740 gj/activation lower
-50-150 boost amount lower/higher
1300 m base falloff+optimal higher

The range & rep or boost amount looks ok for the price increase, but the fitting and activation costs look pretty big. More so on the CPU where 30 tf reduction can fit a drone dmg aug on a carrier. Power is not so much of an issue i would say, since that is balanced for capitals. The CPU doesnt change all that much, and while i am sure relatively this fits in with other mods, because the numbers are so big the final result is somewhat overwhelming. Other new capital mods show a similar picture in fitting reduction with faction. If you use a few capital mods you can easily free up 100-200 tf cpu with faction mods (depending on armor or shield fit).


but these mods should be there to get a bit extra out of your ship they should not be required like they will be on the FAX if numbers stay the same
Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights
#365 - 2016-04-09 11:31:49 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
but these mods should be there to get a bit extra out of your ship they should not be required like they will be on the FAX if numbers stay the same


And the shield carriers i would say. Armor seems to be in a pretty good place right now. Allthough that is mostly for PVE, i have no idea how they will work out for PVP. Shame. Supers seem better in every way.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#366 - 2016-04-09 12:23:07 UTC
Sekeris wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
but these mods should be there to get a bit extra out of your ship they should not be required like they will be on the FAX if numbers stay the same


And the shield carriers i would say. Armor seems to be in a pretty good place right now. Allthough that is mostly for PVE, i have no idea how they will work out for PVP. Shame. Supers seem better in every way.


None of the carriers seem to have fitting issues now that CCP confirmed FSU are meant to stack

Well I suppose the Chimera needs one co-processor for a full on tank fit but it's really the fax that have fitting issues
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#367 - 2016-04-09 12:24:25 UTC
Sekeris wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
but these mods should be there to get a bit extra out of your ship they should not be required like they will be on the FAX if numbers stay the same


And the shield carriers i would say. Armor seems to be in a pretty good place right now. Allthough that is mostly for PVE, i have no idea how they will work out for PVP. Shame. Supers seem better in every way.

Yeah, it's a shame. They seem to be breaking the pattern of every ship type having it's particular specialty where it's better than any other. Instead, supers look to be strictly better than carriers and titans better than dreads in every way except sustained tank in siege.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#368 - 2016-04-09 12:27:00 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sekeris wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
but these mods should be there to get a bit extra out of your ship they should not be required like they will be on the FAX if numbers stay the same


And the shield carriers i would say. Armor seems to be in a pretty good place right now. Allthough that is mostly for PVE, i have no idea how they will work out for PVP. Shame. Supers seem better in every way.


None of the carriers seem to have fitting issues now that CCP confirmed FSU are meant to stack

Well I suppose the Chimera needs one co-processor for a full on tank fit but it's really the fax that have fitting issues

I assume you mean they don't have fitting problems because it's not worth filling the highs with FSUs. In that case, wouldn't other options such as capital neuts cause similar fitting issues?
Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights
#369 - 2016-04-09 12:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sekeris
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
None of the carriers seem to have fitting issues now that CCP confirmed FSU are meant to stack

Well I suppose the Chimera needs one co-processor for a full on tank fit but it's really the fax that have fitting issues


I have yet to work out a fit for the shield carrier that works ok and lets me fill out all the slots and add such things as prop mods, tank, and dmg mods. A networked sensor array, 3 FSU, 3 drone mods, T2 shield ex and booster and that is all the cpu is mostly gone. That leaves 36 cpu for the last low, high and 4 mids for the nid, and 194 for the chim and extra mid with my skils.

If you swop the booster and shield ex for a plate and armor rep the archon has 266 cpu left, and the thanny 392.

Not that you would actually use it like that, but still, i think it illustrates the issue. If you think 3 FSU is too many, then a 50k MWD will take up 25tf more cpu.

Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:

I assume you mean they don't have fitting problems because it's not worth filling the highs with FSUs. In that case, wouldn't other options such as capital neuts cause similar fitting issues?


Capital neuts are worse for fitting then FSU, so fitting a rack of those hurts more. A networked sensor array and 4 FSU is probably the easiest to fit. Or you would leave 2 slots empty.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#370 - 2016-04-09 12:57:05 UTC
Sekeris wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
None of the carriers seem to have fitting issues now that CCP confirmed FSU are meant to stack

Well I suppose the Chimera needs one co-processor for a full on tank fit but it's really the fax that have fitting issues


I have yet to work out a fit for the shield carrier that works ok and lets me fill out all the slots and add such things as prop mods, tank, and dmg mods. A networked sensor array, 3 FSU, 3 drone mods, T2 shield ex and booster is all the cpu is mostly gone. That leaves 36 cpu for the last low, high and 4 mids for the nid, and 194 for the chim and extra mid with my skils.

If you swop the booster and shield ex for a plate and armor rep the archon has 266 cpu left, and the thanny 392.

Not that you would actually use it like that, but still, i think it illustrates the issue. If you think 3 FSU is too many, then a 50k MWD will take up 25tf more cpu.

Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:

I assume you mean they don't have fitting problems because it's not worth filling the highs with FSUs. In that case, wouldn't other options such as capital neuts cause similar fitting issues?


Capital neuts are worse for fitting then FSU, so fitting a rack of those hurts more. A networked sensor array and 4 FSU is probably the easiest to fit. Or you would leave 2 slots empty.


For one you should not be fitting an active booster to these things the active reps are balanced around siege modes and carriers lend themselves to a more buffer based fit.

Then after a velocity and mass change to the carriers the prop mods are now a joke and not worth firing to anything other than a mwd for better warp on travel fits.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#371 - 2016-04-09 13:14:24 UTC
I would like to correct myself after going back on sisi I can no longer get the Chimera to fit.



Now I would like to go off on a differant point


There is no such thing as an armor carrier. There are only two carriers and they are both shield

Thannatos and Nid

The archon and the Chimera pretend to have a role in large capital engagements however by the time things shift from dps carrier to tank carrier supers will be used instead.

There is simply no reason to use the archon or chimera over the thanatos and nid


Now the thanatos gets a full DPS and Max tank fit with no fitting mods

Same worth the nid
Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights
#372 - 2016-04-09 13:25:06 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sekeris wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
None of the carriers seem to have fitting issues now that CCP confirmed FSU are meant to stack

Well I suppose the Chimera needs one co-processor for a full on tank fit but it's really the fax that have fitting issues


I have yet to work out a fit for the shield carrier that works ok and lets me fill out all the slots and add such things as prop mods, tank, and dmg mods. A networked sensor array, 3 FSU, 3 drone mods, T2 shield ex and booster is all the cpu is mostly gone. That leaves 36 cpu for the last low, high and 4 mids for the nid, and 194 for the chim and extra mid with my skils.

If you swop the booster and shield ex for a plate and armor rep the archon has 266 cpu left, and the thanny 392.

Not that you would actually use it like that, but still, i think it illustrates the issue. If you think 3 FSU is too many, then a 50k MWD will take up 25tf more cpu.

Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:

I assume you mean they don't have fitting problems because it's not worth filling the highs with FSUs. In that case, wouldn't other options such as capital neuts cause similar fitting issues?


Capital neuts are worse for fitting then FSU, so fitting a rack of those hurts more. A networked sensor array and 4 FSU is probably the easiest to fit. Or you would leave 2 slots empty.


For one you should not be fitting an active booster to these things the active reps are balanced around siege modes and carriers lend themselves to a more buffer based fit.

Then after a velocity and mass change to the carriers the prop mods are now a joke and not worth firing to anything other than a mwd for better warp on travel fits.


While i agree that buffer will be used more for PVP with FAX support, it seems somewhat daft to balance the fit on a carrier just towards buffer. Allthough i have to say that it works pretty well. Active rep i think still would have a place in small groups and pve. As would the MWD/AB.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#373 - 2016-04-11 02:44:35 UTC
so i put this idea in the carrier feedback thread but thought i would put it here too


what about giving carriers a range and power bonus to local racial t1 e-war

damps for gal tp for minm td for amarr ecm for caldari


this would give a reason for players to use them in large cap fights
(e-war with capital tank)

and separate them from the burst e-war of supers while having a seance of progression

it would also give the armor carriers a use for their mids

Lugh Crow-Slave
#374 - 2016-04-11 03:04:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
also a nearly minute long reload is crazy for carriers their dps is no where near high enough to warrant that
make it 2 seconds at most per charge these things also need to fly back from and to the target
LittleBlackSheep
ISK Unlimited
#375 - 2016-04-11 13:43:11 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
also a nearly minute long reload is crazy for carriers their dps is no where near high enough to warrant that
make it 2 seconds at most per charge these things also need to fly back from and to the target

Reload time is quite high, yes. One could say, you lose more damage from calling them back, reload and watch them travel back to their target than just letting them on the field using their normal attack. At least if the target is not absolutely closerange.

However, the worst part about fighters currently is: Once tackled, you lose an entire squad in seconds. They need *at least* 3 or 4 times the buffer they have now and a useful resistance profile. Their small signature and their basespeed do not protect them enough, once webs are on the field.

I tested a well-fitted Thanatos in a C5 Sleeper Site and I was not able to kill even the first wave, the Sleeper switch their damage to the fighters after like 5 seconds and they totally wreck the squads, most times before you can call them back. My entire fighter bay was empty afer a few minutes and the carrier basically worthless. These fightersquads will die even faster (a lot!) vs. T2/T3 cruiser gangs with tackle and medium guns.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#376 - 2016-04-11 19:44:38 UTC
LittleBlackSheep wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
also a nearly minute long reload is crazy for carriers their dps is no where near high enough to warrant that
make it 2 seconds at most per charge these things also need to fly back from and to the target

Reload time is quite high, yes. One could say, you lose more damage from calling them back, reload and watch them travel back to their target than just letting them on the field using their normal attack. At least if the target is not absolutely closerange.

However, the worst part about fighters currently is: Once tackled, you lose an entire squad in seconds. They need *at least* 3 or 4 times the buffer they have now and a useful resistance profile. Their small signature and their basespeed do not protect them enough, once webs are on the field.

I tested a well-fitted Thanatos in a C5 Sleeper Site and I was not able to kill even the first wave, the Sleeper switch their damage to the fighters after like 5 seconds and they totally wreck the squads, most times before you can call them back. My entire fighter bay was empty afer a few minutes and the carrier basically worthless. These fightersquads will die even faster (a lot!) vs. T2/T3 cruiser gangs with tackle and medium guns.


so glad some one else sees how easy these are to kill no one would listen when i said in pvp using a chimera wont work as you will be out of fighters long b4 a thannatos is out of tank
Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#377 - 2016-04-11 22:10:48 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
How to test the Capital changes

UPDATE #1: 8 more injectors added!
UPDATE #2: Another 8 injectors added!

  • All new and updated T1&2 items are seeded on the market at the standard 100isk along with Carriers and Force Auxillaries.
  • As of today, you should find that your redeeming queue contains Supercarriers, Titans and a small stack of skill injectors. Hopefully this should be enough to get anyone started in testing these new things! We may give out another batch at a later date but this is not guaranteed, so don't go and sell them all or blow them up immediately!



Hi,
Not sure where to post but something seems wrong with industry related to new capital mods T2.
I understand that with only siege and triage T2, the use of capital T2 component is a pain but now we will have a full usage of T2 capital modules and we should manufacture them with T2 capital component (the JF ones).
Is it in the plan ?
Thanks for the work with the citadel expansion and capitals, it's a game rebirth
Pic

COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE

Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#378 - 2016-04-12 03:50:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
Some assorted thoughts:

Please make the fighter ui button a lot bigger easier to see, soooooo many people are not noticing it.
The old figher bay fighter amount icons where better. (the previous version to this http://i.imgur.com/uQ3BEKM.png)

Fighter support units all have the same skill requirement.
Space Superiority fighters feel too strong they kill heavy attack wings without any chance of the SC pilot being able to react.
All heavy and light fighter wings should have the same volume, having them different makes switching awkward, change long range fighter volume to 1800 and Space Superiority fighter volume to 750.
Nobody will use support fighters they are not strong enough to be worth sacrificing dps for and thus the questionable bonus on carriers becomes meaningless.
Explosion radius on light fighter missiles should be increased they are too good at killing frigates, dictors even pods.
^this seems to have been balanced

Capital remote reps repair for less then large ones that makes no sense what so ever.
Active tanking out of triage/siege in pvp is a joke please fix.
Please add deadspace and officer flex hardeners other ways they will not be used on supers.

Burst projector duration could be longer.
Thanatos and Nidhoggur should get some more base shield and armor respectively their peak tank potential is less then halve that of the other two.
Gallente and Minmatar carriers an super carriers should get their niche reinforced further, more damage for gal more speed/agility for mini, to compete with the vastly superior tank of the others.
Minokawa and Apostle can get their cap from fitting lots of cheap recharge modules while Lif and Ninazu have to fit cap boosters it seems, but at the same time they have less fitting space.
Apostle is in a descend place Minokawa could use a bit more power grid and cpu and Lif and Ninazu need more fitting and a bigger cap booster bonus to be competitive.
Basically: The status quo of triage carriers has been carried over to fax instead of having been evened out.

Edit: the nidhggur does not have enough cap recharge to run 4 hardeners and a Networked Sensor Array

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.

Antony Ottig
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#379 - 2016-04-12 17:54:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Antony Ottig
Quote:
Capital remote reps repair for less then large ones that makes no sense what so ever.


CCP focused so much on balancing capitale remote reps under TRIAGE that they missed completly that they are WORSE than simple Large remote reps OUT OF triage!


Capital Remote Armor Repairer II __ Tech II __ 1 950 GJ __18,00 km __12.00 s __875 HP
Large Remote Armor Repairer II _ _ Tech II ____365 GJ __14,40 km ___6.00 s __512 HP

Wtf if this?
Just boost the amout of repair it Capital remote reps to be better then Large and lower the TRIAGE rep bonus for cap modules
Lugh Crow-Slave
#380 - 2016-04-13 03:06:01 UTC
Antony Ottig wrote:
Quote:
Capital remote reps repair for less then large ones that makes no sense what so ever.


CCP focused so much on balancing capitale remote reps under TRIAGE that they missed completly that they are WORSE than simple Large remote reps OUT OF triage!


Capital Remote Armor Repairer II __ Tech II __ 1 950 GJ __18,00 km __12.00 s __875 HP
Large Remote Armor Repairer II _ _ Tech II ____365 GJ __14,40 km ___6.00 s __512 HP

Wtf if this?
Just boost the amout of repair it Capital remote reps to be better then Large and lower the TRIAGE rep bonus for cap modules



have you not been paying attention? they wanted to remove any and all chance of spider-tanking capitals so they made sure Capital RR is basically worthless outside of triage