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Yachts, yachts, yachts.

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corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2016-03-10 18:46:15 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
We're still looking for feedback on these in regard to rolling wormholes.

Some ideas that have been presented.

Make it so higgs riggs can't be fit on them.
Make higgs riggs remove nulification.
Make higgs remove Cov ops cloak.
Make it so yachts can't fit BS prop mods.

More ideas are always welcome as well as discussion on them in general.
Ebag Trescientas
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2016-03-10 19:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ebag Trescientas
If yachts get removed, I would like to see some other way of controlling wormholes, like the suggested module/structure/something that's come up a bunch to cycle it.

I know some people don't like yachts being (nearly) invulnerable, but rolling wormholes is such a PITA. (I'm looking at you, C1 statics. Not that you roll C1 holes with a yacht, they're just particularly annoying to roll.)

Want Pyfa, but with more features?

Pyfa.fit

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#3 - 2016-03-10 19:12:58 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
corbexx wrote:
We're still looking for feedback on these in regard to rolling wormholes.

Some ideas that have been presented.

Make it so higgs riggs can't be fit on them.
Make higgs riggs remove nulification.
Make higgs remove Cov ops cloak.
Make it so yachts can't fit BS prop mods.

More ideas are always welcome as well as discussion on them in general.


Well, I am in the leave them alone camp.
I freely admit they are difficult to catch, but letting them get the hole nearly closed and leaping in in a proteus with cloak and probes, and closing the hole in their face, causes hilarity when the yacht is locked in our hole, with no possibility -when fit for rolling duties- of carrying probes and a mobile depot.

We haven't caught one, but forcing them to self destruct is Very satisfying. Slamming a hole in a rollers face is a hell of a lot of fun, a yacht is best because he is completely screwed.

I do not believe that everything should be able to be caught wih a non specialist fit, there are other fun ways of engaging ships resulting in their destruction without getting a kill-mail. They are unlikely to be directly killed by players, but with the right tactics, they are definitely able to be forced to die. No they are not a zero risk tool in the slightest. Have a look at the number that self destruct in wormholes, that should prove the point.

But I am certain that some "PVP focused players" feel it a personal insult that any ship is capable of surviving their attentions, and it is just not "right" that risk averse players are able to resist them.

That is also a valid viewpoint, but somewhat biased.

They are a valid choice particularly for "offtimes" when there are not so many online. Particuarly in lower class holes.
We do not use them in a C4, but I am sure others do. It is very hard when a single player is on to say he is somehow "wrong" to attempt to close a hole without suiciding a battleship, when the alternative is to log off.

So please either leave alone, or create a new ship/module, that balances the needs of a low numbers of players, with much larger wolf packs who wish to see him dead. *1)

Please, when asking for feedback, please allow leave alone as an equally valid choice 😍Lol Or is this a done deal, and we are just deciding how it is to die?

*1)
If the decision is made, and hopefully it is not, preventing oversized prop mods would be the most reasonable method of stopping them, not preventing them, but making them the wrong ship for the job. This would prevent creating problems in other areas, that the other "fixes" would create, leading to the whole can of worms regarding nullification, cloaky campers, etc etc, being opened, and we know that any opportunity would not be missed to create unlimited forum threads if we did that, then we move onto T3, and the next, and the next ship, ad infinitum, unless the concept that no ship should survive if rolling holes and encounters others is a desired goal?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#4 - 2016-03-10 19:16:40 UTC
corbexx wrote:
We're still looking for feedback on these in regard to rolling wormholes.

Some ideas that have been presented.

Make it so higgs riggs can't be fit on them.
Make higgs riggs remove nulification.
Make higgs remove Cov ops cloak.
Make it so yachts can't fit BS prop mods.

More ideas are always welcome as well as discussion on them in general.


The issue fundamentally is agility + mass + nullification
Mass, however, is related to time to roll and the number involved. If you only lower the mass or limit the prop it will mean more passes either by the same or more characters. It still will result in holes rolled in your face, just over a longer period of time. Mass is not the complete answer.

Therefor you must address agility + nullification on that hull.

The only one that does that is "Make higgs riggs remove nullification" and possibly "Make higgs remove cov ops cloak" though I believe with the agility where it is, even that won't matter.

That leaves us with "Make higgs riggs remove nullification" which seems to me to be the most reasonable. This would also address the potential "But what about rolling nullified T3s" response. It would be nice if the agility of the ship in this configuration could also be addressed as I think that is still an issue, though it might remain something to be seen after this change.
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
Riddle us this
#5 - 2016-03-10 19:32:06 UTC
Although I really dont see it as an issue worth spending time on I would agree that of the possible solutions, having higgs remove nullification makes a more interesting gameplay/solution
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#6 - 2016-03-10 19:35:40 UTC
calaretu wrote:
Although I really dont see it as an issue worth spending time on I would agree that of the possible solutions, having higgs remove nullification makes a more interesting gameplay/solution


Begone forum alt! :)
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
Riddle us this
#7 - 2016-03-10 19:38:11 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
calaretu wrote:
Although I really dont see it as an issue worth spending time on I would agree that of the possible solutions, having higgs remove nullification makes a more interesting gameplay/solution


Begone forum alt! :)


Straight in my feels :(
Duo Roman
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#8 - 2016-03-10 20:23:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Duo Roman
Is it the cheapest "cov ops cloaking + mass combo" that makes yacht the favorite choice for rolling small WHs?
Nerapa
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2016-03-10 20:26:55 UTC
Higgs should sacrifice either the nullification or the cov ops.

Everything should have a counter. The yaght has no counter other than a really bad pilot or a really lucky server tick.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#10 - 2016-03-10 20:41:06 UTC
Nerapa wrote:
Higgs should sacrifice either the nullification or the cov ops.

Everything should have a counter. The yaght has no counter other than a really bad pilot or a really lucky server tick.



That is not true, specialist fits will kill them, with difficulty, and clever hole mechanics can, and do slam the hole in their face.
They may not deliver a killmail, but a self destructed wreck that has been locked out of home, is still a kill in my book!

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Sten Taxi
Shark Coalition
#11 - 2016-03-10 20:45:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Sten Taxi
The problem is the combination of battleship size prop mod and nullifcation + cloak, on any ship. Yacht or Higgs is not the problem. Nerf the yacht and t3s will take its place (as it was before). Nerf higgs and we will see twice the number of passes being done. To deal with this you have to deal with t3s aswell. Just doing it for yachts is just penalizing lower SP players.

Some math:

Yacht mass: 10Gg
Oversize AB mass addition: 50Gg

AB Mass increase factor: 6

Higgs Mass increase factor: 2

The oversized AB is 300% more effective than the higgs rig at increasing mass
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#12 - 2016-03-10 20:46:33 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Duo Roman wrote:
Is it the cheapest "cov ops cloaking + mass combo" that makes yacht the favorite choice for rolling small WHs?

It is not the price that is it's benefit, It is a ship that can close a wormhole with a single or small group, when faced with a larger agressive group on the other side.
It takes time, clever players can lock it out of home, and it cannot carry probes and a depot in rolling fit. So it can be considered lost at that point.
The players alternative choice is to bring a battleship which is near guaranteed suicide, logoff until the hole closes naturally, or fit a T3, which CAN carry probes, so is actually lower risk.

However once the Yacht is made unable to do this role, calls for the T3, to experience the same treatment will start, correction have already started. People do like their kills.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#13 - 2016-03-10 21:02:43 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Sten Taxi wrote:
The problem is the combination of battlesize prop mod and nullifcation + cloak, on any ship. Yacht or Higgs is not the problem. Nerf the yacht and t3s will take its place (as it was before). Nerf higgs and we will twice the number of passes. To deal with this you have to deal with t3s aswell. Just doing it for yachts is just penalizing lower SP players.


I am interested to know, what exactly do people find upsetting about a solo ship not automatically leading to a killmail, when rolling a hole is involved?

Should not someone trying to roll a hole in the face of superior numbers not be applauded?

I do understand that it is attractive, for a large group, to force inferior numbers to engage to make some content, but this is not so much content as extracting Danegold in the form of dead ships and pods? I do understand this, they are professional, and well led, I can see a sense of deserving kills when they are so much better, it is entirely understandable, no one wishes to be deprived of content.

Although they are often accused of it, it is not in my opinion risk averse, but more sane behavior and a desire to play, and not just pos up. I tend to see them as brave little ships and pilots.

I belong to a corp, that enjoys and seeks PVP, and enjoys a reasonable challenge, and rolling holes is a good source of a good fight. We may win, we may lose, but fun is had. but smaller corps, with maybe only one member on out of hours, should be allowed to use the best ships he can, to roll away vastly superior numbers.

But take away the tools, from a single lo-class WH player and what is he to do? Logoff for 16 hours, leave wormhole space? Live in HS? Hide deep in null bending the knee? Are those the only acceptable choices?
For me a luxury yacht, is just something to try to catch, I accept the cat does not get every bird, and sometimes watching the bird slam into the shut window, is also fun.

So, where is the problem?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Brown Pathfinder
Black Spot on Parchment
#14 - 2016-03-10 21:05:12 UTC
this is a waste if time to focus on, focus more on modules and fittings and old content that hasnt been refurbished since 10 years back Smile
biz Antollare
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#15 - 2016-03-10 21:10:29 UTC  |  Edited by: biz Antollare
the issue with the yachts is you can put 2 day old toons in them and roll holes with zero risk.

at least doing it with T3's it takes toons who have spent a considerable amount of time training.

Yachts are just glorified shuttles. theres no reason they should have rig slots or be fitting prop mods.

just the other day we rolled into someone, they saw it was us and logged in 6 yacht sitting alts and just rolled the hole.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#16 - 2016-03-10 21:14:40 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sten Taxi wrote:
The problem is the combination of battlesize prop mod and nullifcation + cloak, on any ship. Yacht or Higgs is not the problem. Nerf the yacht and t3s will take its place (as it was before). Nerf higgs and we will twice the number of passes. To deal with this you have to deal with t3s aswell. Just doing it for yachts is just penalizing lower SP players.


I am interested to know, what exactly do people find upsetting about a solo ship not automatically leading to a killmail, when rolling a hole is involved?


CCP explicitly changed hole rolling in Hyperion to introduce risk to the process
CCP introduced Higgs post-Hyperion
Higgs Yachts (and higgs nullified T3s) represent activity that goes expressly against the goals of the Hyperion changes

Just that alone seems enough of a justification to review the impact of higgs + nullification
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#17 - 2016-03-10 21:22:16 UTC
biz Antollare wrote:
the issue with the yachts is you can put 2 day old toons in them and roll holes with zero risk.

at least doing it with T3's it takes toons who have spent a considerable amount of time training.

Yachts are just glorified shuttles. theres no reason they should have rig slots or be fitting prop mods.


People are fully aware that there is risk involved, they can die and be made to die, I have outlined that in previous posts, and Corbexx will no doubt aware, of the numbers who die in wormhole space.

Please explain how one can fit a 100mn prop mod to a ship with two days skills, when it takes a long time to train all the support, engineering, and navigation skills, not counting the time needed to fit a covert ops cloak, and rigs as well, and well everything!

As an experienced player, you are no doubt aware, that being able to sit in a ship, does not mean you can fly it.

So being kind, assuming one has access to a large quantity of skill injectors, a two day old alt can fly this ship.
And there is Zero risk if you do not count dying.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

biz Antollare
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#18 - 2016-03-10 21:29:00 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
the issue with the yachts is you can put 2 day old toons in them and roll holes with zero risk.

at least doing it with T3's it takes toons who have spent a considerable amount of time training.

Yachts are just glorified shuttles. theres no reason they should have rig slots or be fitting prop mods.


People are fully aware that there is risk involved, they can die and be made to die, I have outlined that in previous posts, and Corbexx will no doubt aware, of the numbers who die in wormhole space.

Please explain how one can fit a 100mn prop mod to a ship with two days skills, when it takes a long time to train all the support, engineering, and navigation skills, not counting the time needed to fit a covert ops cloak, and rigs as well, and well everything!

As an experienced player, you are no doubt aware, that being able to sit in a ship, does not mean you can fly it.

So being kind, assuming one has access to a large quantity of skill injectors, a two day old alt can fly this ship.
And there is Zero risk if you do not count dying.



sorry... i dont waste time reading what you outline in your previous posts.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#19 - 2016-03-10 21:32:22 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sten Taxi wrote:
The problem is the combination of battlesize prop mod and nullifcation + cloak, on any ship. Yacht or Higgs is not the problem. Nerf the yacht and t3s will take its place (as it was before). Nerf higgs and we will twice the number of passes. To deal with this you have to deal with t3s aswell. Just doing it for yachts is just penalizing lower SP players.


I am interested to know, what exactly do people find upsetting about a solo ship not automatically leading to a killmail, when rolling a hole is involved?


CCP explicitly changed hole rolling in Hyperion to introduce risk to the process
CCP introduced Higgs post-Hyperion
Higgs Yachts (and higgs nullified T3s) represent activity that goes expressly against the goals of the Hyperion changes

Just that alone seems enough of a justification to review the impact of higgs + nullification

You do have a point there, but hyperion changed the spawn distance according to mass, and a 120mil mass tengu, and a 120mil mass battleship spawn at the same distance, so that satisfies the goals of hyperion perfectly.
Hyperion was not designed to provide easier kills, though that could be the case, it was to prevent massive ships immidiately jumping back, at low risk.
Whether it is a tengu, a yacht, or a battleship, the mass determines the spawn distance and the distance it has to travel to get to the hole.

Agreed, the speed it travels, and the physical size of the ship makes the cruiser sized hulls harder to uncloak, this was never a consideration for hyperion. In fact hyperion benefited small ships. Enabling them to immidiately cloak. This also annoyed people. And pleased others greatly.

Is there a situation where large fleets of Yachts, swarm roll holes? i have not seen it, but I imagine if that occured, it would be very frustrating.
I am genuinely interested, in why this has suddenly become a problem?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#20 - 2016-03-10 21:33:51 UTC
biz Antollare wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
biz Antollare wrote:
the issue with the yachts is you can put 2 day old toons in them and roll holes with zero risk.

at least doing it with T3's it takes toons who have spent a considerable amount of time training.

Yachts are just glorified shuttles. theres no reason they should have rig slots or be fitting prop mods.


People are fully aware that there is risk involved, they can die and be made to die, I have outlined that in previous posts, and Corbexx will no doubt aware, of the numbers who die in wormhole space.

Please explain how one can fit a 100mn prop mod to a ship with two days skills, when it takes a long time to train all the support, engineering, and navigation skills, not counting the time needed to fit a covert ops cloak, and rigs as well, and well everything!

As an experienced player, you are no doubt aware, that being able to sit in a ship, does not mean you can fly it.

So being kind, assuming one has access to a large quantity of skill injectors, a two day old alt can fly this ship.
And there is Zero risk if you do not count dying.



sorry... i dont waste time reading what you outline in your previous posts.


Cool, I have no problem with that, you did read the bit that explained that what you wrote was completely wrong though I hope? It is always nice to know.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

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