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Project Discovery and Button Mashers

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Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#21 - 2016-03-09 20:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Gliese Casserres wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Demica Diaz wrote:
I had feeling that something like this will happen. Lol


Me too.
I'm all up for griefing, corp theft, scamming, awoxing, any other form to ruin someone's game, but (to attempt) to ruin something with real world importance makes me sick.

Luckily a simple solution exists. A timer. Nobody cracks the image under 10 seconds.

I sometimes dont know what to choose, because I can identify the structures, but they are not on the list anywhere, like these specles autside cells. They looked like some grains spread around the red structures, like you would drop some sugar grains around it. I have pondered about that image longer than 10 seconds.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Jack 'GUN' Morgan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2016-03-09 20:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack 'GUN' Morgan
Jack 'GUN' Morgan wrote:
A lot of people are using Cytoplasm (first option) as their go to! I've come across way loads of samples where this has a higher a percentage to the correct answer.

Note that the description for this clearly states, 'Is seen throughout the whole cell, except in the nucleus (blue marker)." But on the samples I've seen that people have chosen this for have CLEARLY had green dots all inside the nucleus (blue marker).

I'm loosing the point of doing this as the results we as a community are giving is garbage!


http://i.imgur.com/13qnV3q.png

Case and point!
Silvenin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2016-03-09 20:43:30 UTC
Spurty
#24 - 2016-03-09 20:45:07 UTC
Poasting in a thread about science, started by a Space Monkey.

Shocked

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#25 - 2016-03-09 20:46:52 UTC
Just think of all the money some pharmaceutical giant is gonna get out of this (ღ˘⌣˘ღ)

@lunettelulu7
Jack 'GUN' Morgan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2016-03-09 20:49:25 UTC
Lulu Lunette wrote:
Just think of all the money some pharmaceutical giant is gonna get out of this (ღ˘⌣˘ღ)


Doubt it, the submissions are junk, it's a clickfest.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#27 - 2016-03-09 21:32:59 UTC
Silvenin wrote:
Let's look at an example... (yes, click "example")

On the left side we have the image itself, at the top with all 3 colors visible, at the bottom with blue filtered out.
On the right side we have my answer (nucleoplasma) and the already accepted answer (nuclear specles).

Either I'm terribly wrong... or the majority of voters are.
If I'm wrong I would very much like to hear why.


Thats a tutorial image, and the accepted answer you are trying to match is that of a researcher, not a popular vote. Its not nucleoplasma because it's not sufficiently uniform.

The rewards for accuracy in the actual samples drop to zero when your accuracy drops low enough. I think what will happen: An actual researcher will check the results, find the real answer, and then the system automatically grades everyone. Those button mashers will get a low score and their reward for continued play will be zero. At that point, most will stop.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Altamont Flashback
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2016-03-09 21:35:27 UTC
Well... What tutorial not saying u or I overread: There is more than one option to chose. I guess most ppl just click on one Solution instead of checking the pics for more than one option.
Beta Maoye
#29 - 2016-03-09 21:56:16 UTC
I think I have the same problem as OP.

This is the first day of project discovery. May be the sample size is too small to account for which pattern is the best answer. When more players cast their votes, the accuracy of the database should be improved over time. (hopefully :P)
Memphis Baas
#30 - 2016-03-09 22:04:16 UTC
Some people will take it as a project, trying to be accurate.
Others will take it as a test (if they don't know the answer they'll just choose option C (or A) and click next).
Others will take it as a "match the community consensus" game.
Others will just click through, absent-mindedly or as fast as possible on as many as possible.

The results are probably going to be mostly garbage.

I don't know if it's possible for CCP or for the scientists to do some basic pattern or color analysis on all the images, to at least categorize them on a difficulty scale from 1 to 10 how obvious the answer is. Because they'll be able to trust the consensus on the easy / obvious stuff, but the difficult / confusing images are going to be all over the place, with the correct answer probably hidden in the minority.
Altamont Flashback
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2016-03-09 22:14:48 UTC
ummm am I wrong: As I understand in the first u do analysis on things that are already cathegorized and when u hit a special lvl, u get kinda real undefined stuff?
Saint Athanasius Trigentia
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2016-03-10 00:03:13 UTC
Silvenin wrote:
Let's look at an example... (yes, click "example")

On the left side we have the image itself, at the top with all 3 colors visible, at the bottom with blue filtered out.
On the right side we have my answer (nucleoplasma) and the already accepted answer (nuclear specles).

Either I'm terribly wrong... or the majority of voters are.
If I'm wrong I would very much like to hear why.

And it's not the only one... I take 2 to 5 minutes on each picture, checking and rechecking the possible options and refining my choice trying to be certain.... and as a result, my accuracy rating dropped to 47.3%... and it''s still dropping.

Also the payout is laughable. Mining I get500k isk every 3 minutes semi afk. Here I get 50k for burning a lot of attention in the same timespan. As it stands, it's simply not worth the bother. The only incentive to join project discovery at this point, is wanting to help with actual real world research.

What I would like to see is a thread (or even a subforum section) where truly interested players can post pics and ask for clarification to better understand the differences and be able to give better results in the future. And answers should be given only by real researchers (who are behind this), or community members who are marked as knowledgeable by said researchers. but I guess that's just a dream.



I like the laughable payout. Then most everyone doing it for ISK will quit quickly.

Anyway, I was listening to someone on comms earlier how he tried it and was clicking the answer within 5-10 seconds each time.

Sigh.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#33 - 2016-03-10 00:14:05 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Gliese Casserres wrote:
1. Read instructions
2. ???
3. Profit

Ok, I'll admit, it took few images to figure out what you had to do. But then again I might have almost related education...


It sounds like the OP is suggesting that wasting time to read instructions and correctly identify the images results in less profit than spam-clicking things as fast as possible. So CCP may have a problem.

Kind of like the real world where spamming publications is more important than accurate results. Roll


That isn't close to true - you need to spam accurate results or its career over.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2016-03-10 00:21:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
Memphis Baas wrote:
Gliese Casserres wrote:
1. Read instructions
2. ???
3. Profit

Ok, I'll admit, it took few images to figure out what you had to do. But then again I might have almost related education...


It sounds like the OP is suggesting that wasting time to read instructions and correctly identify the images results in less profit than spam-clicking things as fast as possible. So CCP may have a problem.


im suggesting that many people cant be bothered to read, and they just click randomly to see what happens. this is polluting the system, since the system relies on consensus, and the majority are just randomly clicking. So even if i click the correct option, the majority have not, and thus i get it 'wrong'

this doesnt happen in every sample, but there are a few that seem 'broken'

i got 2 of the tutorial images wrong, but i recognised my mistakes,,, one was mistaking blotchy green for stringy green, and the other was when i didnt notice we had to look for green in the blue 'holes' vs green blotches with no blue holes

but otherwise i think i should have at least 80% accuracy, but currently im at about 50%


im hoping over time, ccp will have a larger sample of players and better ability to weed out the bad ones. After my 4th or 5th non-tutorial sample i was already doing the unknown samples.

Suggestions
- raise the level at which you get to classify unknown samples would help
- only give unknown samples to players who have greater than 75% accuracy
- clearer explanation of the different structures we need to identify, stringy vs blotchy, green dots over blue holes, etc
- if you get a tutorial sample wrong, you are given another tutorial sample with the same challenge/structures
- Ability to review previously classified samples in your Submission History, so you can review/screenshot if needed
- Saint Athanasius Trigentia mentioned a sub-board/sticky for posting exceptionaly hard samples, which would help train people.
- right-click to 'rule out' a specific classification, and maybe automatically rule out any associated classifications (undoable by rightclicking again)

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2016-03-10 00:30:24 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:
Kind of like the real world where spamming publications is more important than accurate results. Roll


That isn't close to true - you need to spam accurate results or its career over.

Maybe in the "real world" where people have careers. In "academic land", the pressure to publish produces a ton of papers that are poorly supported at best and downright fraudulent at worst. I have first-hand experience writing, reading, and editing them so I have seen it many times. Of course I'm sure it depends on the field of study and many other factors...

Anyway, that's not about EVE so I'll stop there.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2016-03-10 00:33:38 UTC
Saint Athanasius Trigentia wrote:
I like the laughable payout. Then most everyone doing it for ISK will quit quickly.

Anyway, I was listening to someone on comms earlier how he tried it and was clicking the answer within 5-10 seconds each time.

Sigh.


i think low isk payout is a good thing. it doesnt add anything to the economy, it just generates isk. However, the Kredits is probably where the biggest payout will be, and is a good thing. It will actually add to the economy. Sorta like mining rocks but more involved

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#37 - 2016-03-10 00:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Haven't played with it much yet. I'm kind of wondering about that what-looks-to-be-an-image-ID in the lower right hand corner.

If that's what it is, I expect we'll have a database of known-good answers and bots to supply them, before long.:\

Also it seems super easy to cheat by just closing the window if you get a hard one. I've seen a few where I just went Shocked at the cluster-F of green, closed it, and opened it back up to a nice, clean Nucleoplasm.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Klunker Klash
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#38 - 2016-03-10 01:04:12 UTC
As I've been saying - this is a great idea and I'd love to see something like this take off and do well - to have video games contribute in even greater ways to society, especially because there are some really smart, talented, capable people out there playing video games.

On the flip side, this game is all about getting one up on the other guy. The first person, or group of people, to figure out how to break the game within the rule set that CCP provides is going to do it.

That said, I totally understand why the rewards are comparably lower than other activities in the game - and I can also understand why the AK rewards aren't that appealing. This isn't supposed to be the next market bubble for isk or to get some fancy boat to ride or bling modules for your ship. While I'm interested in the project and I'd love to get something for it, I hope CCP doesn't increase the rewards or anything because it will cause all the button-mashers to move on to something with better isk/hour.

On the other hand, if it doesn't, then I guess we'll get to watch Project Discovery be a giant flaming failure as it contributes nothing but gamer trolling to the world of science.
Pryce Caesar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2016-03-10 02:06:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Pryce Caesar
Jack 'GUN' Morgan wrote:
Jack 'GUN' Morgan wrote:
A lot of people are using Cytoplasm (first option) as their go to! I've come across way loads of samples where this has a higher a percentage to the correct answer.

Note that the description for this clearly states, 'Is seen throughout the whole cell, except in the nucleus (blue marker)." But on the samples I've seen that people have chosen this for have CLEARLY had green dots all inside the nucleus (blue marker).

I'm loosing the point of doing this as the results we as a community are giving is garbage!


http://i.imgur.com/13qnV3q.png

Case and point!


There are cytoplasms that are outside of the nucleus. The green spots within the nucleus are another aspect of the cell.

Perhaps certain things will be fixed when they put Project Discovery back up. Apparently so many people were attempting it that they had to take it offline, and are working with Massively Multiplayer Online Science to stabilize it.
Vasil Comino
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2016-03-10 07:53:18 UTC
Hi There, Just wanted to give my feedback.

An overview.

I'm now rank nine. Actually went through the tutorial and actually attempt to analyze these samples. And to be quite frank I'm hugely disappointed!

Apparently attempting to try means nothing because I still get the wrong answers often.

The isk you get for completing doesn't even make it viable for a cloaky character doing nothing.

On my alt that is doing it. I'm down to a 45.1% success rate.

I think you need to make this easier or start giving decent amounts of isk. Because for the effort, I might as well go to any astroid belt, kill 2 pirates and get 50K that way.