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The end of Hybrid buff
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#61 - 2011-12-19 23:54:14 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:

Why are you commenting a low sec logi pilot?? Im pretty sure he knows pvp...rofl


Heretics don't tend to make use of Logis... and they also don't roam a lot. That means I'm putting in a lot more hours in ships like Harpies and Moas than Basilisks right now. I guess the cool thing about it is that I can fly Harpies in Amamake - there's enough PVP concentrated in the one system that the 15 minute Gate Guns Will **** You timer doesn't put a serious crimp in my sub-BC PVP.

-Liang

so you started to learn basic pvp , nice ^^
have fun with it


I already knew how to do "basic PVP". I just prefer balanced gang compositions to the typical "zomg need moar dps". Speaking of which, I'm doing remarkably well WITH BLASTERS.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#62 - 2011-12-19 23:59:21 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
...


Stop making excuses for why you can't PVP with Blasters and just do it. After the requisite time when you learn to actually PVP I think you'll find they perform in their role quite adequately.

-Liang


Diemost with 2 nanos = 2km/s (post "buff," that is). Vega with same 2 nanos = 3km/s. Diemost with 2 range mods and null = almost zero dps at 27-32km point range. Vega with same 2 range mods = 85% dps at point range.

You embarrass yourself.Oops

On a more serious note, you've got to be really out of touch to keep pretending gallante and hybrids work. Undock once in a while.Roll


lol
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2011-12-20 00:06:12 UTC
Kingwood wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
...


Stop making excuses for why you can't PVP with Blasters and just do it. After the requisite time when you learn to actually PVP I think you'll find they perform in their role quite adequately.

-Liang


Diemost with 2 nanos = 2km/s (post "buff," that is). Vega with same 2 nanos = 3km/s. Diemost with 2 range mods and null = almost zero dps at 27-32km point range. Vega with same 2 range mods = 85% dps at point range.

You embarrass yourself.Oops

On a more serious note, you've got to be really out of touch to keep pretending gallante and hybrids work. Undock once in a while.Roll


lol

hmm i still dont know why i should know who are u... that Mfumae never enlightened me :(
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#64 - 2011-12-20 00:09:35 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:

hmm i still dont know why i should know who are u... that Mfumae never enlightened me :(


Just somebody who plays the game instead of making stuff up on the forums m8
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2011-12-20 00:14:08 UTC
Kingwood wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:

hmm i still dont know why i should know who are u... that Mfumae never enlightened me :(


Just somebody who plays the game instead of making stuff up on the forums m8

it is good to see we have some fellow high sec ice miners ^^ gogo isotope price gogo
ps: i have a cheap orca alt with full bonuses for rent write me a mail Kingi
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2011-12-20 01:21:35 UTC
i dunno guys, im still seeing Drake and Cane blobs (with a sprinkle of Oracle and Tornado) raping everything.

i still fit autos on my Myrm, and I still fly the Gila over the Ishtar. i think the Talos and Mega are wonderful ships, and will use them more once i get large t2's, but medium blasters still suck because their respective boats suck (Vigi and Proteus being exceptions).
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2011-12-20 02:12:08 UTC
The patch really fixed a lot of problems for hybrids, especially for large. Talos looks amazing as a fast small gang ship. Medium rails are still pretty bad. Medium blasters have improved a lot now. Small hybrids are borderline OP. I don't see how hybrids could be considered bad anymore.

It'll take a while for people to adapt but I honestly believe we'll be seeing a lot less hurricanes flying around in 2-3 months.
Alara IonStorm
#68 - 2011-12-20 02:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Smabs wrote:

It'll take a while for people to adapt but I honestly believe we'll be seeing a lot less hurricanes flying around in 2-3 months.

No we won't.

Hurricanes can role with 2x Neuts, Selectable Dmg Types, Great Range and Great Speed. It's 2x DPS Bonus makes the thing an absolutely brutal DPS Pump more so with the new Hail Ammo. The Duel Neuts are absolutely incredible. It also see's use as a fleet ship, with it's 60k EHP 720mm Whelp Fits.

No Gallente Battlecruiser has this kind of Field Control or Utility of use. The Brutix is slow and vulnerable to Nuets and can't Nuet back as well as has no web in the Shield Fit and no Speed in the Armor Fit. The Myrmidon has a tiny bit more DPS if you fit it with Hybrids but has always been a slow close range brawler that does not scale well in active fits. She won't be nipping at the Canes heels yet.

The Hybrid Buff was good but it is not pushing the Powerhouse of the Cane or Drake for that matter off of any field. They both can do things that Blasters can not and what they can do is more in demand.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#69 - 2011-12-20 02:34:11 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Smabs wrote:

It'll take a while for people to adapt but I honestly believe we'll be seeing a lot less hurricanes flying around in 2-3 months.

No we won't.

Hurricanes can role with 2x Neuts, Selectable Dmg Types, Great Range and Great Speed. It's 2x DPS Bonus makes the thing an absolutely brutal DPS Pump more so with the new Hail Ammo. The Duel Neuts are absolutely incredible. It also see's use as a fleet ship, with it's 60k EHP 720mm Whelp Fits.

No Gallente Battlecruiser has this kind of Field Control or Utility of use. The Brutix is slow and vulnerable to Nuets and can't Nuet back as well as has no web in the Shield Fit and no Speed in the Armor Fit. The Myrmidon has a tiny bit more DPS if you fit it with Hybrids but has always been a slow close range brawler that does not scale well in active fits. She won't be nipping at the Canes heels yet.

The Hybrid Buff was good but it is not pushing the Powerhouse of the Cane or Drake for that matter off of any field. They both can do things that Blasters can not and what they can do is more in demand.


I think its worth mentioning that both of the BC sized blaster platforms are Tier 1 - and thus we wouldn't realistically expect them to be competitive with the Cane or Drake. Basically: if you're trying to determine whether medium blasters are balanced, you need to be comparing the Brutix to the Cyclone. The question you need to be answering is this: Does the cyclone fulfill the close range DPS role better than the Brutix?

The answer to that question is No.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2011-12-20 02:38:46 UTC
the cyclone wipes the floor with the brutix; its tank is multifold better, and it has better damage projection.

and trust me, you wont be seeing more hybrid boats. i havent seen a single successful "hybrid" gang across all FW militias since Crucible hit.
Alara IonStorm
#71 - 2011-12-20 02:48:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Liang Nuren wrote:


I think its worth mentioning that both of the BC sized blaster platforms are Tier 1 - and thus we wouldn't realistically expect them to be competitive with the Cane or Drake. Basically: if you're trying to determine whether medium blasters are balanced, you need to be comparing the Brutix to the Cyclone. The question you need to be answering is this: Does the cyclone fulfill the close range DPS role better than the Brutix?

The answer to that question is No.

-Liang

I am not comparing Tiers because it is not relevant to the state of Current Balance. It is however a major factor causing imbalance. The question is in what form would a Tierless Brutix take that could rattle the Canes Cage take?

Do you think there will ever be a viable Gallente Fleet Warship is another question worth asking? Do you think CCP could find a way to allow any Gallente Ship to be the center of a BC Fleet in the same way the Drake and Cane can? The reason I wonder this is that since Blasters can not role at Scorch Ranges and Artillery has a much more brutal Alpha then Rails. Rails have enough difficulty competing, add the poor Tank to DPS Ratio on on Gal Battlships with that and it makes things worse for any large fleet hopes.
Goose99
#72 - 2011-12-20 02:51:12 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
the cyclone wipes the floor with the brutix; its tank is multifold better, and it has better damage projection.

and trust me, you wont be seeing more hybrid boats. i havent seen a single successful "hybrid" gang across all FW militias since Crucible hit.


^This

Just because Cyclone is overshadowed by the cane doesn't mean Brutix won't get kited to death.Roll
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2011-12-20 02:52:15 UTC
thats exactly why they have failed so miserably, and keep on failing. an entire race is useless (save a few boats), yet theyre afraid to make ONE stinking ship viable in the current meta.
Goose99
#74 - 2011-12-20 03:06:49 UTC
When I saw in the Crucible patch notes, how they made Gallante boats all slightly faster, I laughed...Lol then cried...Cry then laughed again.Lol

In a blasterboat, you're either faster or slower than your opponent. If slower, you get kited until you die. How much slower makes little difference. For balancing, the baseline should have been Winmatar counterpart's speed, and start up the speed slowly until the blaster wins the catchup/dps race 50% of the time on average.
Rayvonuk
Phoenix Club
#75 - 2011-12-20 03:25:57 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
When I saw in the Crucible patch notes, how they made Gallante boats all slightly faster, I laughed...Lol then cried...Cry then laughed again.Lol


You really do need to get a life you clueless miserable monkey.
Goose99
#76 - 2011-12-20 03:32:25 UTC
Rayvonuk wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
When I saw in the Crucible patch notes, how they made Gallante boats all slightly faster, I laughed...Lol then cried...Cry then laughed again.Lol

In a blasterboat, you're either faster or slower than your opponent. If slower, you get kited until you die. How much slower makes little difference. For balancing, the baseline should have been Winmatar counterpart's speed, and start up the speed slowly until the blaster wins the catchup/dps race 50% of the time on average.


You really do need to get a life you clueless miserable monkey.


U mad bro?Lol
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#77 - 2011-12-20 04:18:27 UTC
There's going to need to be individual ship tweaking and I expect it will happen over the course of months and not weeks. The Catalyst and Cormorant, for example, STILL need a larger fitting grid.

Catalyst:
1) In order to fit a 400mm plate onto a Catalyst I need to use light electrons and I still need to use an ancillary current rig. The Thrasher can fit a 400mm plate, 200mm AC, and can fill it's rig slots with more armor rigs - no fitting help needed.
2) The catalyst can get a nice gank setup but sits under 4k EHP to get it. The Thrasher breaks 7k EHP without even really trying or giving up much AC DPS. When the catalyst can push 5.5k EHP with a damage control and some thought but it then only tweaks out a Thrasher in damage.
3) Maybe say to hell with it, give up the point, and get a shield tanked Catalyst? Now you're playing with power. Over 500 DPS and matches that 7k EHP the shield tanked Thrasher gets. You just had to go with the next smaller blaster tier, a named shield extender, and two ancillary current rigs. The Thrasher? No fitting help needed, it goes faster, and it also has a point.
4) Rail Catalyst? You can fit 150mm rail. You'll just need two ancillary current rigs, and AB rather then a MWD, and a CPU II. That's three fitting rigs/mods. The arty Thrasher needs one and can still fit a named MWD.

Cormorant:
You can fit 150mm Rails to the Cormorant. You'll need two fitting mods/rigs. And you'll be stuck with an AB.
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#78 - 2011-12-20 04:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kingwood
People are confusing the metagame issue with the Hybrid issue. The only reason blasters feel "left behind" are because of the current metagame existing in game - bring more than the other guys and always have backup ready. And if something goes really wrong, hey, drop a capital.

This is bad for ships which have to fully commit to a fight and have to fight in full tackle range, i.e. Gallente. Couple this with the fact that armor tanking slows you down, makes you less agile, and takes up slots for range enhancing mods (tracking enhancers) and you'll see that Gallente is the race which hasn't aged together with Eve very well.

Honestly, I believe Blasters themselves are fine now. The issue boils down to Armor vs. Shield tanking, with Shield tanking being so vastly superior to armor tanking that it has become the norm in 0.0 solo and small gang PvP. Balance Armor vs Shield, and Gallente should be fully viable again (as long as you realize you'll still be fighting in full tackle range). You can't really change the metagame though - most people are risk averse and will not fight unless vastly outnumbering their opponents or by bringing in Falcons and Logistics.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#79 - 2011-12-20 04:41:18 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
the cyclone wipes the floor with the brutix; its tank is multifold better, and it has better damage projection.

and trust me, you wont be seeing more hybrid boats. i havent seen a single successful "hybrid" gang across all FW militias since Crucible hit.


I just took a look at that. So from what I'm seeing, your standard shield brutix with Null will outdamage your average max gank Cyclone out to 16.5km, and resume the damage superiority at 20km where the Cyclone's HAMs stop working. Also, it seems pretty interesting to comment on blasters working in FW blobs. They haven't ever worked in blobs and I don't really expect them to start working in blobs.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#80 - 2011-12-20 04:48:28 UTC
Quote:
Hurricanes can role with 2x Neuts, Selectable Dmg Types, Great Range and Great Speed. It's 2x DPS Bonus makes the thing an absolutely brutal DPS Pump more so with the new Hail Ammo. The Duel Neuts are absolutely incredible. It also see's use as a fleet ship, with it's 60k EHP 720mm Whelp Fits.

No Gallente Battlecruiser has this kind of Field Control or Utility of use. The Brutix is slow and vulnerable to Nuets and can't Nuet back as well as has no web in the Shield Fit and no Speed in the Armor Fit. The Myrmidon has a tiny bit more DPS if you fit it with Hybrids but has always been a slow close range brawler that does not scale well in active fits. She won't be nipping at the Canes heels yet.

The Hybrid Buff was good but it is not pushing the Powerhouse of the Cane or Drake for that matter off of any field. They both can do things that Blasters can not and what they can do is more in demand.


I was talking more about the tier 3 battlecruisers than the brutix and myrm. Obviously those ships aren't going to push autocannon canes off the field. But oracles, talos', tornados and nagas will simply because they are faster and have much better damage projection across much better ranges. Oracle gangs with logistic support have already been wiping out gangs of hurricanes and you can get better range, speed and damage with a tornado whilst having only slightly less tank.