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Do you think EVE is supportive of casual players?
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Alexandra Stormwing
A Conspiracy of Ravens
#61 - 2011-12-19 20:05:22 UTC
I am a casual player involved in lowsec piracy. I'm usually only on 2-8 hours a week; sometimes I go a week or two without logging in at all.

Mind, as a casual player that doesn't want to spend more money beyond the subscription fee, I am not swimming in isk. However, I do have a trading character that earns me a hundred million isk or so a month with very little effort, which means that I am able to afford losing T1 frigates and cruisers in lowsec PvP without much of a hassle. I can even afford to fly the occasional expensive ship (T2 frigates, mostly) as long as I'm careful not to lose them very often.

Of course, being fairly casual with Eve, it's pretty much impossible to join a PvP corp of any worth. They're very supr srs bsns about being online all the time. So, I roam solo. It would be great to fly with 2-3 other people but oh well. Solo has a lot of benefits: No politics, everything is on my own schedule, no being at the mercy of others, I make the rules. It's not all bad.

For those who want to play casually and don't mind spending a bit, a single PLEX can keep you in cheap but fun ships for quite a while.
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2011-12-19 20:08:44 UTC
back on page one, Dane El had a really great post.

I'm a casual player, I'm sure even I put more effort into Eve than many others. This topic has been at the forefront of my experience in Eve all along.

Anytime you play with other people, there is always going to be an arms race of sorts. Those willing to put in dozens of hours a week, run a platoon of alts on several accounts, and crunch more numbers than an NASA particle accelerator lab does- are always going to have a severe edge.
The very thing that attracted me to Eve- one toon can do everything- is actually a self-inflicted handicap among people that see a series of numbers rather than a game. I have one acct, and only this toon on it. For me, that makes Eve really unique, but in space, it means I'm just gimping myself.

The unrestricted nature of PvP in Eve only makes this fundamental dominate all the more. The elitism of 'your build sucks, your fittings aren't EFT approved....we only invite toons with this many SP..." blah blah. Couple that with no partition between a week old newb in a T1 toy boat and a 100mil SP pirate in a ship costing more than that newb will see in six months subscription to the game- and 'casual' just isn't in the cards.

It's the same with all games- the reason I don't play hugely popular PvP games like COD is that I got tired of being sniped by a gloating 13 year old that memorized every pixel of every map between masturbation sessions in mom's basement.

This is just my (casual) experience

- For me, it takes about 4-6 level III missions, with salvage, to be able to fully outfit a T1 frigate with a decent PvP fit. So figure 3 hours or so total, sometimes more for longer missions. But all told say 3 hours.
- Yesterday I spent 4 + hours roaming low sec looking for a fight.
- I found one fight (that I lost) and even with a good PvP fit, my Punisher went down in about 20-30 seconds against a better pilot and ship. I then had to hide in a pod until I could burn 12 gates back to where my hangar is.

That's just not very realistic for many people to get really serious about PvP. I went to the last Frig Fry and lost five T1 fitted (mission loot) frigs in under an hour, each lasted mere seconds. Nevermind the sheer complexity of Eve's combat mechanics, which take no small amount of dedication just to learn.

What makes Eve so unique and rewarding is also the thing that creates a huge gap between the hardcore and the casual players. It's the reason for the seeming hatred between care bears and PvPers. It's the reason for every thread about forcing people out of high sec.
It all comes down to this one topic. It's not unique to this game at all, but other factors like unrestricted PvP and actual loss of your stuff in Eve makes the chasm yawn even more wide between dedicated players and casual gamers.
Caldari Acolyte
Shark Enterprises
#63 - 2011-12-19 20:09:36 UTC
I too use to be a casual player, then i took an arrow to the knee Shocked
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2011-12-19 20:13:04 UTC
Pinaculus wrote:
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
yes, casual players can have fun depending on what they want to do. If they want to do some mining or running missions, they can do it. If they want to be a FC and do large scale battles, then no, or it will be very dificult



I find this very strange, to be honest. I've played other MMOs where casual folks could schedule things in advance. Say, PVP is 6pm to 8pm every Friday and Saturday (or whatever). I guess that's hard in EVE because PVP is difficult to instigate when you actually want it to happen. It's too bad, since PVP is certainly where the setting and mechanics shine.


Let me clarify. You can FC and be a part of large battles as a casual player but only when you get good and it's hard to become good as a casual player. Unless you want to be a part of some crap corp that is just looking for fodder. In order to be a good player, you have to really understand the game mechanics, know all about the ship types/fittings etc etc and it's hard to do that as a casual player. You could learn all that as a casual player but it would take quite some time.

also depends on what you exactly mean by a casual player

casual player - logs in for an hour or so a day, or a few days a week, adds some skills to learn, runs some missions/mines and then quits.
dedicated player - does all the above but also scours the web/forums looking for advice, wants to learn all the different aspects of EVE, joins a good corp so the player and learn even more stuff
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#65 - 2011-12-19 20:47:28 UTC
Spineker wrote:
Famble wrote:
MMO doesn't mean group play. I grow weary of that misconception. MMO means a lot of people playing in the same world, nothing more. We don't have to play together at all. I'm thankful for that too, because most of you guys suck and I don't want to play with you.



Exactly I find it silly for people to say "It is an MMO get in a group!" ignorance. It is Online and people interact nothing about grouping with someone. I interact all the time with people.



I suffer the other players only because the AI for drones and NPCs are lacking.

Unfortunately, gate campers and nullsec emoragers are as predictable as rogue drones.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Something Random
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2011-12-19 21:12:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Something Random
Im quite an old player and all my time has been fairly casual as i hold a job throughout this time. Means Monday to Friday working the 9 to 5, and then all the domesticities to boot.

The only thing i feel im limited to not doing, and saying that i could make an effort now and again and have done of course, is Fleet Ops and Extended wars. Simply due to the isk/time replacing things.

I dont play for isk grabbing though and never have, yes i like it and yes i always wish for more of it but ive never let it be the drive of my experiences. Through this i think i am about the only player in Eve who has played beyond a few months and has never seen 1,000,000,000 + in the wallet total Lol.

Im happy driving round bumping into stuff and dipping a toe in whatever may happen.

My point being i think you have to be this kind of person to casual in Eve because, as stated many times above, the really big and shiny and infamy only come through large concentrated efforts. I think thats the 'end game' some people lust for anyway.
Leads me to the conclusion - Eve is supportive of certain casual players, and has loads of content for them.

"caught on fire a little bit, just a little."

"Delinquents, check, weirdos, check, hippies, check, pillheads, check, freaks, check, potheads, check .....gangs all here!"

I love Science, it gives me a Hadron.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2011-12-19 21:24:31 UTC
To answer the OP:

Yes.
Killstealing
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2011-12-19 21:43:56 UTC
Dane El wrote:
This thread is sure to point out the wide range of peoples' opinions of what casual play is. You play a few hours a day. I play a few hours a week.

Eve can be played casually but you miss out on a lot of what the game is about. I don't really have time to fleet up with other players. The logistics of getting everyone together just eats up too much time with my severely limited play time and scheduled events I can rarely justify penciling in time to play a video game.

Most solo content in Eve is really, really bad. I ran missions for a while. Too repetitive and once I got into trading, the rewards seemed not worth the time. I tried mining. Even worse than missions in all respects with the added bonus of potentially getting a hulk suicide ganked that'll take a ridiculous amount of mining to replace. I tried exploration, slightly more interesting than missions but it got to the point where the rewards still weren't worth the time when compared to trading. I'd scan down the sites and then not bother running them. I could make vastly more money spending that time on trading activities and running sites wasn't exactly exciting. Being in low sec was really the only exciting part but even avoiding getting ganked gets stale after a while.

In short Eve's solo game is pretty pathetic. Solo is what you often get stuck with when you're a casual player because the logistics of working with others usually means lots of waiting on said other players. If I hadn't got hooked on trading, I wouldn't still be playing. I delude myself with the fairy tale that once I reach that mythical future time with copious amounts of time to play video games, I'll have tons of isk to have fun with. The reality is I'm probably amassing this huge pile of isk and skills and won't do anything with it but print more isk.

No you can't have my stuff. I like my fairy tale.

EDIT: Hey! So much for an interesting discussion I suppose.

try chainsmoking and suicide ganking.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2011-12-19 23:18:52 UTC
If you pay for your account instead of plexing it and you are in a Corp that's pretty active, then yes, this game can be played casualy.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Spineker
#70 - 2011-12-20 22:31:59 UTC
SWTOR is pretty damned awesome MMO think I will be casual for a while. Big smile

Generally come back eventually though.
Hainnz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2011-12-20 22:42:56 UTC
Short answer: yes.

Long answer: not really.

A casual player can have fun in EVE, depending on what he likes to do. I'm casual and have fun in EVE. But I also know EVE is a hardcore game for hardcore players, and my casual play style greatly limits what I can do in the game.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2011-12-20 23:46:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
EVE can be played even if you log just for few seconds to add something to your queue. Big smile

Earning ISKs --- buying ships --- losing ships --- Earning ISKs ..

So if you skip that, and just skill up you actually are still in the circle.

Also i am always casual player, even when i played 20/7
Its all tied up to what your goals in game are...
Lan Trobair
#73 - 2011-12-21 05:52:18 UTC
Although casual players and solo players are not one in the same, I think a lot of casual players are indeed solo players, maybe even forced to be.

The truth is, both types will eventually plateau in every single endeavor they take unless they give in and join a large corp already. That plateau wouldn't be so bad if it was enjoyable once it was reached. The "professions" ruse comes to mind. Unless everything is PLEXed (ehem MT), enjoyment eventually turns into tedium trying to maintain whatever lifestyle the player painstakingly created (rent, ship losses, upgrades, fuels, etc.) which can be very unforgiving if the player is pressed for time.

Obviously losses affect the casual/solo players more so than players with a large corp backing. The moment will always come where the casual/solo player (or solo corp) will be completely outmatched against corp ganks, large-scale mining operations, access to exotic resources, aggressive marketing, high level missions, soon-to-be a large viable chunk of PI, and not to mention defending POS and POCO.

Where solo players may differ from time constrained players (and what I think is at the heart of the topic) is in their insistent appreciation of "process." They believe it the journey that counts and that is exactly what I think is starting to wane in EVE. For a solo player, everything has been earned with their own ISK, bookmarked by their ship, established in the name they want, played under their subscription. Ownership. There is no end in an MMO, so why are we encouraged to get there so fast through large corp? Ask a large corp noob, without looking it up, how much that implant cost when he got PK'ed - there's a disconnect.

My advice to devs, pushing players into large corps will burn them out faster. That means they will look for new MMOs to play and unsub sooner. The casual/solo player will enjoy the game much, much longer. They are your cash cow. Corps are essential I think but they should see their benefits separate from those of solo players.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#74 - 2011-12-21 05:53:32 UTC
The game itself is, the community not so much.
ariana ailith
Dukalin
#75 - 2011-12-21 08:57:55 UTC
i have 2 accounts and consider myself a somewhat casual player lately. Sometimes i don't log in for days.
Other times i am loggedin but just chat with some people ingame without doing much.
More other times i run a mission or 2 or mine a bit. Or just fly around to systems i've never been and scope out the place.

Easily kills an hour or 2.

That's with 2 accounts each with their own purpose. No real direction in game. Just do what i wanna do at the moment.
I'm not in a big corp, i'm not in an alliance. No other players to bother me. Just me and my ship. It's great!
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#76 - 2011-12-21 21:31:29 UTC
EVE is not particularly friendly to casual players. Almost everything involves a significant time investment to get it done. Perhaps the professional mission runner has it somewhat easy, since he can stockpile stuff and just log on, load his cargo hold with ammo, and go grind (ugh) missions. Pretty much everyone else is looking half hour or more just to get cranked up every session. The research necessary to do things is also a bit overwhelming. And God help you if you ask for help on the forums, where you'll be told to do your own research. Seriously, learning to play EVE takes enough research to get an associates degree at a community college. There are a lot of things CCP could do to facilitate a less steep learning curve, reduce unnecessary complexity (check out Jester's Trek article on the topic), and reduce the sheer mass of prep work, all without giving up any of the game's flavor or difficulty level.

Bokononist