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[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

First post
Author
Lugh Crow-Slave
#141 - 2016-03-03 20:16:02 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Querns wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Why isn't the security status of a system being considered?

For the transaction taxes, it should be lower in low sec and non existent in wormholes and null sec.

If this was the case, everyone who wanted to sell stuff in 0.0 would just set up a market in NPC 0.0, where the taxes were low-to-zero and there was no chance of disruption via explosion or ACL lockout.

NPC stations in 0.0/lowsec need these fees too.


This is for citadels not stations. Low/zero tax should be one of the major incentives to choosing to setup in a citadel as opposed to a station.

Citadels in NPC null are also distructable and they would have a tax because it is not true null sec.


As well security status is taken into consideration when you fit a market rig to a citadel
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#142 - 2016-03-03 20:19:36 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  • Jump Clones: [...]We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price.

  • Market: markets currently have two taxes, transaction's tax, applied for sold items, and broker's fee for non immediate orders, which are set at 1.5% and 1% respectively. To create an environment more competitive for Citadels, we plan on increasing the transaction tax to 2.5% and the broker's fee to 5-6%. Players trading in citadels will still receive the transaction tax, but the broker's fee will be at the complete discretion of the owner. To avoid confusion for the owner, the broker relations skill will not affect player set broker's fee in Citadels.


  • I read this as: Hey, I have a great idea! Let's make life terrible for any player that chooses not to use a citadel.

    Citadels will NEVER be market hubs in hisec. Why? Imagine if someone could un-anchor Jita. Trillions upon trillions of isk, lost in movement costs alone.

    Let's punish players for using the old tried-and-true feature so that they use our new and poorly thought out feature instead. Remember how you guys introduced Teams, but then removed them?

    Here's a golden rule for you: If you need to punish players to get them to use a new feature, maybe you need to re-think that new feature.

    Would you, by extension, want to roll back the entire Crius expansion? Seems like your example was one of the few non-punitive features to come out of that.
    Marcus Tedric
    Zebra Corp
    Goonswarm Federation
    #143 - 2016-03-03 20:19:55 UTC
    Altrue wrote:
    Reprocessing tax in isk in NPC stations means more minerals on the market. Interesting.


    No it doesn't - the minerals go to the owner - they don't disappear....

    Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium

    TOJICTOTA
    True Power Team
    #144 - 2016-03-03 20:22:56 UTC
    Market:
    Iif you want to change transaction tax to 2.5% and the broker's fee to 5-6% apply this changes to the order DURATION = 3 months. but if you set order for 1 day it would be the same as now (1.5% and 1%).
    in enother words add variable taxes repending on order duration

    Contracts:
    add the same - tax depending on contract duration

    Jump Clones:
    chnge it to 1m, not 5m. also add "force clone jump"
    "force clone jump"-this jump can be made after 2-3 hours after normal clone jump but you will pay for this jump 10mil. Those who wants to use it - 10mil not a price.
    Zappity
    New Eden Tank Testing Services
    #145 - 2016-03-03 20:22:57 UTC
    Why not do the jump clone fee if you want to swap before your cool down has expired? Fee for normal swaps is bad.

    Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #146 - 2016-03-03 20:28:50 UTC
    Marcus Tedric wrote:
    Altrue wrote:
    Reprocessing tax in isk in NPC stations means more minerals on the market. Interesting.


    No it doesn't - the minerals go to the owner - they don't disappear....



    Not when done in NPC stations where a good chunk is done
    Anthar Thebess
    #147 - 2016-03-03 20:38:57 UTC
    Good more isk sinks.
    Consider moving some of the items from drops to LP stores.
    Each item that drop from escalation/faction spawn don't change nothing, but if the same item will come from LP store it will remove ISK in the process.
    Xumayar
    Nonagessis Inc.
    #148 - 2016-03-03 20:39:30 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  • Jump Clones: current price for installing jump clones in NPC stations is around 100,000 ISK. We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price. Jump Clones installed in Citadels will not have any NPC taxes, but the owner can charge his own pricing for the service. We also want to remove the maximum limit of jump clones for Citadels: like Citadel offices, your alliance, corporation or public customers will never be denied usage of this service if you grant them access in the first place.



  • Increasing the cost to installing jump clones is no problem; but there are certain issues to be had with jumping fees.
    The main issue is many players have jump clones not because they want to get from one side of New Eden to the other quickly (I am aware many people use it for that reason also) but because they need to swtich between expensive implant clones for better learning and cheaper empty clones that they can take into low and nullsec with little worry.

    Charging 5 million per jump will hurt newer and casual players and will further lower the populations of low and NPC nullsec.

    Personally I wouldn't have a problem with jumping fees if clone swapping at the same station is free but a jumping fee is charged for jumping to the other side of New Eden.
    Example:

    I am currently docked in Amarr with a clone with learning implants.
    I have an inactive clone without implants in the same station.
    I have an inactive clone in Jita (Doesn't matter if it has implants ort not).

    If I want to swap clones in Amarr I should not have to pay a fee; or at least it should be a relatively cheap fee AT MOST it should be 100,000 isk.
    But if I want to clone jump to my clone in Jita I should pay a fee; 1-5 million isk would be acceptable.
    windows vista
    The society of bitter vets
    #149 - 2016-03-03 20:50:56 UTC
    Contracts: while Contracts will not be available in Citadels for the first release,

    i think that thist is more important what about my contracts for doctrine ships?
    Dave Stark
    #150 - 2016-03-03 20:52:44 UTC
    windows vista wrote:
    Contracts: while Contracts will not be available in Citadels for the first release,

    i think that thist is more important what about my contracts for doctrine ships?


    open ship fitting from corp fittings. 'buy all' inside the citadel where your glorious logistics bros have seeded the market.
    Kefevs Pirkibo
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #151 - 2016-03-03 20:55:38 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hello people, Team Game of Drones is having a look at the Citadel structures services (reprocessing, clones, market, compression, offices) and we would like to make a few changes that will impact NPC taxes. The goal of such changes is to give more flexibility for Citadel owners to make a profit when charging their services to the public, while making sure they are profitable enough to compete versus NPC station services.



      ***

    • Jump Clones: current price for installing jump clones in NPC stations is around 100,000 ISK. We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price. Jump Clones installed in Citadels will not have any NPC taxes, but the owner can charge his own pricing for the service. We also want to remove the maximum limit of jump clones for Citadels: like Citadel offices, your alliance, corporation or public customers will never be denied usage of this service if you grant them access in the first place.

    • ***




    Please remember those are still work in progress changes (especially the market broker's fee tax amount), so please use constructive feedback in your replies.


    Bureaucracy is increasing in New Eden and increased cost of Jump Clone usage is one sign of this. With the notorious paperwork there should also be a form for receipt of this cost possible to forward for reimbursement. For NPSI communities fighting the big alliances one whale at a time it is important to muster enough pilots. A cost increase in Jump Clone usage will be possible to reimbursement from the loot of the careless big alliance pilots. A receipt mechanic would be necessary, keep in mind that NPSI communities don't have access to API keys like the major corporations/alliances. A receipt would be necessary so as to not pay every fleet member the Jump Clone cost, but only those that actually used a Jump Clone for that particular fleet.

    Or you could just scrub the Jump Clone cost increase.


    Scotsman Howard
    S0utherN Comfort
    #152 - 2016-03-03 21:03:20 UTC
    Dave Stark wrote:
    windows vista wrote:
    Contracts: while Contracts will not be available in Citadels for the first release,

    i think that thist is more important what about my contracts for doctrine ships?


    open ship fitting from corp fittings. 'buy all' inside the citadel where your glorious logistics bros have seeded the market.



    Yes: This makes sense.

    Let us take a simple contract and make the person put up a minimum of 9 sell orders (ship, fittings, ammo, etc.).

    Then let us take those 9 sell orders and make them visible to everyone in the region (because that is how the market in Eve works).

    Then let the invaders or attackers go through and buy out the market (because again that is how the market in Eve works).

    Guess what? Can you see the problem yet?

    Now you have no doctrine ships for your pilots to fly.

    Don't think this will happen? Why do you think people started using contracts in the first place?
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #153 - 2016-03-03 21:05:37 UTC
    MachineOfLovingGrace wrote:

    Currently I can let the big boys play in null and do my own thing in high/low. I'd really really hate to be forced into space politics and big block shenanigans. Please think about why you want to do this, do you just want eve to be a more realistic, evil, grittier place, or do you really think this will improve gamplay as a whole? Just because a feature is cool and interesting and more sandboxy doesn't make it good for the game.

    You have a funny view of how nullsec works. I am part of the largest bloc in the game, and I don't have to deal with space politics and shenanigans, or do anything in particular.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #154 - 2016-03-03 21:09:43 UTC
    Scotsman Howard wrote:
    Dave Stark wrote:
    windows vista wrote:
    Contracts: while Contracts will not be available in Citadels for the first release,

    i think that thist is more important what about my contracts for doctrine ships?


    open ship fitting from corp fittings. 'buy all' inside the citadel where your glorious logistics bros have seeded the market.



    Yes: This makes sense.

    Let us take a simple contract and make the person put up a minimum of 9 sell orders (ship, fittings, ammo, etc.).

    Then let us take those 9 sell orders and make them visible to everyone in the region (because that is how the market in Eve works).

    Then let the invaders or attackers go through and buy out the market (because again that is how the market in Eve works).

    Guess what? Can you see the problem yet?

    Now you have no doctrine ships for your pilots to fly.

    Don't think this will happen? Why do you think people started using contracts in the first place?


    It's just the initial release they will be added to citadels once they can be
    Hahnide Kragomn
    Iota Piscium
    #155 - 2016-03-03 21:12:05 UTC
    I wonder how this will affect FW space. In particular upgrading FW systems will reduce broker fees, which is not very useful right now with the fees being low anyway.

    I wonder if the citadel rates will be affected by FW system bonuses.

    It will be interesting to see if someone builds a citadel in a FW system without docking restrictions but with hefty fees. Kind of a neutral station.
    Rob Kashuken
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #156 - 2016-03-03 21:15:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Kashuken
    Please rethink the 5m isk fee for using a jumpclone. Installation of JC's, fine, but please do not create dis-incentives from getting people who are new into pvp.

    With the market transaction fees - perhaps I missed it, but do the relevant market related skills & standings not reduce the fees anymore? Whilst I'm fully confident that the market will just rebalance after a short-term period of liquidity destabilization, I'm curious as to why the decision was made that will benefit powerblocs (by reaping additional taxes), but again, will effectually punish someone just getting into industry who is using NPC stations to manufacture / sell in.

    If you're wanting to make citadels more attractive, why introduce barriers into the rest of Eve in order to do so?

    Edit: One other thing - Plexes. This will take about 95m isk out of the value of purchasing a plex to sell for isk - are you wanting to see plex immediately hike to cover this, especially since eve inflation is often measured against the plex?
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #157 - 2016-03-03 21:16:58 UTC
    Deck Cadelanne wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Jump Clones: current price for installing jump clones in NPC stations is around 100,000 ISK. We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price. Jump Clones installed in Citadels will not have any NPC taxes, but the owner can charge his own pricing for the service. We also want to remove the maximum limit of jump clones for Citadels: like Citadel offices, your alliance, corporation or public customers will never be denied usage of this service if you grant them access in the first place.


  • 5 million isk every time you *use* a jump clone at an NPC station? That's 10 million if you happen to be jumping from one NPC station to another? When you already have the cost of a 24 hour timer?

    Clearly you intend to force players into player corps/alliances and force them to use player owned structures for basic services.

    Clearly you have not looked at the "unintended consequences." I'll be very narrow in my take on this:

    This will make nullsec PVP even more the exclusive preserve of the big blue doughnut crowd. May as well put up a big, bright "Newbies not welcome" sign. It will probably also leave NPC null basically a deserted wasteland, as if it isn't non-viable enough already.

    Maybe incentives work better than arbitrary punishments, no?

    You can use someone else's citadel, without having to belong to their corporation or alliance.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

    Aaril
    Pandemic Horde Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #158 - 2016-03-03 21:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaril
    Instead of nerfing the game, why don't you lower the fuel cost of the clone service that is not even released yet? The initial contract at 5M is fine, but there should be no fee for jumping.

    There will NEVER be a market to compete with NPC stations that is able to deny entry or be destroyed. Citadel owners can increase taxes, block access, and the Citadel can be destroyed. Even if the market goods are not destroyed along with a Citadel, a massive amount of goods would then need to be hauled to a new Citadel or station, and then have broker's fees applied once again. The unpredictable nature of players will mean that Citadel markets will primarily be used in WHs and Null for specific alliances. The proposed taxes are utterly insane, and will do nothing other than nerf an entire playstyle. Station traders will have to widen the margins so far apart that people will no longer even sell into buy orders. How about you just leave this alone? Station trading is not overpowered. No one forces someone to sell into buy orders.

    The 100000 ISK for JCs is a flat number and is fine to increase. The markets work off of a percentage already, and should not be touched.

    In general I sit by during changes and do not complain, but some of these changes have me absolutely baffled.

    The irony here is that they are nerfing trade, which is one of the few ways in this game to earn ISK that already combats inflation (taxes). It purely transfers ISK. Most other ways of earning ISK have the effect of increasing total ISK. As in, instead of wasting my time trading, I may start missioning, which only increases inflation through new ISK (or ratting/sleepers).
    Circumstantial Evidence
    #159 - 2016-03-03 22:00:31 UTC
    "To create an environment more competitive for Citadels, we plan on increasing the transaction tax to 2.5% [....] Players trading in citadels will still receive the transaction tax, but the broker's fee will be at the complete discretion of the owner. "

    I don't understand how raising the transaction tax everywhere, w/o the possibility of reduction by using a Citadel market service - makes Citadels more competitive.
    PotatoOverdose
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #160 - 2016-03-03 22:06:33 UTC
    Also, if the idea behind increasing the tax is to decentralize market hubs like Jita, Amarr, or Dodixie, the tax increase will have the opposite effect.

    Specifically: Stocking a far flung market - as in the less trafficked parts of empire space like Agil - will become less tenable. A small, slow moving market where your orders might never completely fill/sell becomes completely undesirable when you bump taxes up by 6%.

    All your doing is making the content enablers of eve, the people seeding markets near and far, more likely to go to a station where their stock will sell.

    And again: no one will put trillions of assets on sale in a citadel where trade fees are arbitrarily set by players, that can be reinforced, un-anchored, or destroyed. It just doesn't make any financial sense to ever do this.

    Putting the two points above together, you're going to end up centralizing the hisec markets more, not less.