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This isn't the first game I've left when it changed in a way I didn't like, I'll be fine.

And no, you can't have my stuff. ;)

You have no argument from me there, but the fee did not increase by 5x for most people. I would imagine that the average change for most players is around 10x, and it is definitely going to be higher across the board (even in citadels) for everyone. That sounds like inflation to me.

You have to put a condition on this because this is only true if player stations become a viable alternative to NPC station trading. Otherwise you just kicked a whole lot of players out of trading. Raising broker's fees does not make trading in citadels inherently more viable (only better than NPC stations presumably). So then the question becomes how high do the broker's fees have to go to FORCE players into citadels.

People love to use the sandbox to justify just about anything.

If CCP sprinkle broken Glass in one area of the sandbox, to enforce people play where they want to, is it still a sandbox, if you do not notice your legs bleeding?

Too zen?

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If you would like another example, restricting Jump Bridges to one per system, which eliminated the problem with people going from one JB in a system to another JB, crossing entire regions without ever going through a gate (This was pre jump fatigue). This was to force a degree of risk in long distance travel, and to nerf the chains of JB's that literally extended end to end for regions through CFC space.

Another would be the removal of the watchlist, which negatively effected people who relied on what was honestly the most bullshit low effort intel tool that allowed you to know exactly when someone got on, so you could do things like seed an enemy WH with attackers, and then just leave them offline and unattended until you knew they logged on to go run sites in their hole, so you could gank them.

And the whole Jump Fatigue mechanic was specifically put in place to stop cancerous gameplay, to stop things like PL coming from 5 regions away in 10 minutes and landing on your dreads inside of a single Siege cycle.

Tying anom generation to security status so 80% of the system in nullsec lost havens/sanctums in Dominion, massively nerfing space in an effort to generate conflict over better space.

Reducing rat bounties in nullsec by 5% and adding in the useless ESS in a bid to "compensate" through a really ****** pirate magnet that only was useful in giant blue blobs.

There's all sorts of sticks that have been used to beat down undesirable gameplay. Mostly in nullsec over the past 3-4 years.

It's just that this stick is hitting you, and now, that's a problem, because it's not someone else getting bent over.

Also a new experience, since CCP has been VERY gentle with highsec for the past several years. Adding compression arrays, JC changes, noctis, MTU's, Freighter fittings, refining changes, unlimited manufacturing and researching slots, burner missions, incursions, extra HP on all ships, buffed barges, massive increases to mineral requirement of tier 2-3 BS's that helped drive mineral demand, etc, etc, etc.

This is honestly the only serious nerf to a highsec gameplay style other than suicide ganking I can think of since the module reprocessing changes made a bunch of mission runners whine. So I'm not terribly impressed by how cruel needing to move to a citadel to trade efficiently is.

I do not think I can stress enough how this is the most important aspect of this decision. I could not care less what the new numbers are for broker's fees as long as the implementation allows for meaningful decisions and emergent gameplay. The proposed changes are strictly punitive in nature and are meant to herd players towards citadels. I expect the changes to have plenty of unintended and negative consequences. The changes have to give parity to traders and citadel owners.


I am tired of seeing people argue that trading carries virtually no risk for high reward. It is not that simple. Risk is a critical part of any financial decision, and any decent trader will try to minimize risk to increase profits. Guess what will happen to every market when risk grows unabated. EVE revolves around risking assets/ISK for fun or profit. Market PvP is no different because one bad investment can result in billions lost. Flipping items in a station probably carries the least amount of risk, but it also has the tightest margins so that only high volume items are significantly profitable. Probably the biggest reason it has so little risk is because order modification is virtually free, and I have already suggested to change that. Changing broker's fees to 5% does not inherently add any risk, and there has to be available choices to manage risk to avoid inflation.

Sorry .. after reading this thread I still don't get how the new citadel trading is supposed to work.

Can somebody explain a couple of things to me plz.

1) If I buy something located in a citadel how can I be sure I have access to it? Or the access tax (if there is such thing) is not horrendous high?
2) If I sell something in a citadel what happens if the owner decides to close the citadel (aka revokes access to me). Beside the possibility to change taxes as he wants, this would be a big no for me.

So far as I understand it - it feels a lot like 0.0 stations - nobody trades with them because you can not be sure you have access or if you have for how long.

I would like to see all citadels open for everyone .. having a lot of abandoned citadels hanging around feels somehow wrong. With the current stations you can just move along if you feel for a system change.

For the tax system I would like to see a one time agreement. Mandatory for a couple of month.

Sorry for the bad english..

You should really stop looking at changes in terms of how it effects just you, and to to how things effect the game as a whole. Let's take that removal of meta 0 and nerfing of modules to 50% refine and see some of the things that happened.

Did you switch from mission when they removed much of the refining from modules and stripped out 20ish% income from mission runners who looted? No. There were certainly others that did though.

Beyond your immediate circle of mission runners though, quite a lot of others were effected.

Miners got a buff because the amount of minerals coming into the system suddenly dropped by 15-20%.

Refiners got a buff because all those refining skills suddenly became far more valuable than they were before.

Compression specialist's who made a career out of making huge number of 425 Rails, 800mm Autos, and Citadel torpedoes' in the correct proportion, along with the necessary BPC's to assemble a supercarrier or titan went out of business.

People who used meta 0 mods in t2 production now had to find new sources of meta 0 mods for production, instantly creating a huge market for t1 module production that didn't exist before, because it was satisfied by rat loot.

People like me who used modules as the only source of plentiful minerals available in regions too hostile for industrial scale mining got the shaft, suddenly needing to import minerals from highsec to continue production, which required three cyno midpoints from the region I lived in at the time.

Haulers suddenly found a market for hauling massive amounts of refined minerals around.

Nullsec miners got massive boosts, as they were suddenly the primary source of minerals for capital and supercapital construction in nullsec, causing many alliances to start recruiting industrialists into previously fairly pure PvP groups.

Each change causes massive ripples which effect many different playstyles. People like to look at changes and go "This effects me ____, and so the change is bad/good" without considering the long term effects. just like how you looked at my example and went:

"Nobody changed his gameplay because of that, I sure didn't."

Which was honestly either an extremely ignorant, or phenomenally stupid statement.

And this citadel tax change is even more complicated, effecting everyone who trades, just buys things, manufactures fuel blocks, citadel mods, casually sells loot, does PI, mines ice, does highsec wars, buys things off contracts, ships materials anywhere, produces goods that take more than one step of production, and a TON of stuff not directly pertinent to highsec.

If I sound condescending, it's because I get tired of trying to explain to people the game is more than just one style of play or profession in game, and it's all connected, so what looks like an excessive stick can be extremely beneficial to the game as a whole.

Very well presented, a good post.
i would like to add to the end, the part that actually concerns me most.

"So What looks like excessive stick can be extremely harmful to the game as a whole"

And this is what frightens the living daylights out of anyone who has played EVE for a while.
And making these changes effectively compulsory. Certainly does not reduce my worries. We are tinkering with the very foundations of the economy of eve, the very structure, and the very core, it is simply not possible to extrapolate the changes that will occur, in areas far removed,
Butterfly effect? A butterfly beats it's wings in the Amazon, and the effects are felt in Europe.
Chaos theory? Small effects affect the world?

It is more like flamebombing the Amazon. The only certainly is the effects are going to be unlike anything we have ever witnessed.

We KNOW, this will happen, exactly how, is totally unpredictable, but if you have the playerbase supporting you and willingly and joyfully following the roadmap, we can come through it together, and laugh about the crazy surprises we lived through together.

However, this is not now the case, those who were committed to the roadmap, now see that CCP believe that Citadels will only be practical, If we are reluctantly whipped complaining and resentful into them. People see that CCP has decided to punish those who do not comply, and force them from their homes like a slumlord turning off the water and electricity, or racking up the rent to impossible levels.

So through that, they have lost the goodwill, they have lost the excitement, they have lost the desire to joyfully follow the roadmap. What an incredibly wasteful and needless decision.

FOR EVERY SINGLE unforseen effect, and there will be thousands, that decision will be used to beat CCP, repeatedly, continuously,
And all the good that results from the changes will be lost and wasted in the storm.

You cannot realistically expect to take people on a death march and hope that if you point out the pretty scenery, all will be well.

There will be those who hope, that all will somehow work out, and the player base, will forgive and understand, as they see how wonderful the universe has turned out. That may have been true, before we changed from being fellow travellers, to finding ourselves marching forward at the point of a whip, but we well see, we will see.........

God help us all.

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