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[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

First post
Author
Mia Markaya
Unlimited Blade Works.
#61 - 2016-03-03 15:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mia Markaya
Everyone loved when you took clones cost out of the game CCP, and we all rejoiced when you decided to remove the standing requirement for installing clones in HS/LS Stations.

Why are you taking a step back and adding costs to something that your players praised you for and are happy with?


Make Citadels JC service great by giving them unique features ( like being able to in-station JC without triggering a cooldown that you already announced ) that justify their cost, but don't go around nerfing everything else in the game just to widen the gap.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#62 - 2016-03-03 15:51:06 UTC
Sim Cognito wrote:
NPC taxes are an essential ISK sink and an immersion factor. We have too many ISK faucets. The changes are extremely positive.


Adjusting Contract fees and Jump Clone fees is also long overdue and I welcome it.



ISK sinks have this annoying habit of not affecting everyone equally.
Tristan Agion
10.K
#63 - 2016-03-03 15:54:13 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Initial figures show us maintaining a cloning bay in a Citadel will cost 157m ISK a month, we wanted to provide means for the owner to recoup that cost and even make a profit in general.

Maintaining a cloning bay in a Citadel will cost whatever you say it will cost. You can make it cost 157M ISK per month, or 157b ISK per month, or nothing. If you want, you can even make it earn the station owner 157M ISK per month just by existing.

This is a completely arbitrary number that is determined by you devs, and nobody and nothing else. You may have some reason or the other why you feel that having a bay should cost owners that much. Fine, let's hear that reason then so that we can evaluate it against the proposed charge for jump cloning.

But to pretend that jump cloning has some sort of necessary "physical" cost associated with it, as if all this is not simply a game that you are coding exactly the way you want to, is just absurd. If your cost estimate derives from some arbitrary consumption of resources and energy in game that you have decided upon, then the resulting price is still just as arbitrary as what it was derived from.
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#64 - 2016-03-03 15:54:26 UTC
Sim Cognito wrote:
NPC taxes are an essential ISK sink and an immersion factor. We have too many ISK faucets. The changes are extremely positive.


Adjusting Contract fees and Jump Clone fees is also long overdue and I welcome it.

Finally, compression and reprocessing shouldn't be instant, but that's just me I guess.


Balance ISK faucets StraightBlinkRoll

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Scotsman Howard
S0utherN Comfort
#65 - 2016-03-03 15:54:53 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Considering they are one of the few groups in the game that could actually defend the stupid thing, people will use it.


their attempt at holding pocos failed - i wouldn't put much faith in their ability to defend a citadel.


Yes because defending hundred of POCO across hundreds of systems that could be attacked 24 hours a day 7 days a week for the price of a war dec is certainly comparable to defending ONE citadel that is only vulnerable for a few hours a day (or however the owner puts the timer) with weaponry that will more than likely be actually useful for defending it.

Yes you are correct that these two items are comparable.

I'm not saying it would be easy, but it would be easier than POCOs from a logistics and organization standpoint.

Even if it is not goons, it would take a large entity to do what CCP is wanting done.
Dave Stark
#66 - 2016-03-03 15:56:17 UTC
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Considering they are one of the few groups in the game that could actually defend the stupid thing, people will use it.


their attempt at holding pocos failed - i wouldn't put much faith in their ability to defend a citadel.


Yes because defending hundred of POCO across hundreds of systems that could be attacked 24 hours a day 7 days a week for the price of a war dec is certainly comparable to defending ONE citadel that is only vulnerable for a few hours a day (or however the owner puts the timer) with weaponry that will more than likely be actually useful for defending it.

Yes you are correct that these two items are comparable.

I'm not saying it would be easy, but it would be easier than POCOs from a logistics and organization standpoint.

Even if it is not goons, it would take a large entity to do what CCP is wanting done.


i agree with you - citadels will be easier to defend than pocos.

i'm just saying i don't think it will be sufficiently easier such that goons will be able to do it. i also have no objection to being proven wrong on that front, though.
Cristl
#67 - 2016-03-03 15:57:28 UTC
Hang on, members of big power blocks are getting free clone jumps, while Newbie McHighsec pays 5 mill per go?

I'm not sure this is such a good idea. Malcanis' law may exist, but there's no reason it needs to be actively enforced.
Vulfen
Project Valhalla.
#68 - 2016-03-03 15:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Vulfen
Will you allow people to set a docking tax at a rate /m3?

Also will you be able to set all of these taxes at variable rates for different standings/relation to you?
i.e i can set a 0.1 tax for alliance but a higher tax for none members?

Also can you add a mechanic where a citadel can be assigned for a person, so it makes it thier personal citadel and then rules will be based on that person.
So industrial guys like myself in a PVP corp who want their own place can set up their own place for what they need.
ApolloF117 HUN
Cranberrie knuckles
Mordus Angels
#69 - 2016-03-03 15:58:11 UTC
My only question is why "medium" citadels can't fit market module while they have the pg/cpu for that. like on the pos there is no restriction for modules (except high/low sec and sov)
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2016-03-03 16:01:45 UTC
So happy to see taxes in ISK. Makes things so much easier for owners and just in general.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#71 - 2016-03-03 16:03:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
It's all pretty nice and reasonable except for three things:
1. Paying 5 mil to clone jump away from an NPC station seems a bit steep. It would greatly hurt new players who aren't connected enough to know of good citadels for their clones. Also the whole model of paying to jump out of a place seems really weird. How about a recurring "rental fee" to maintain each inactive clone? That would be more friendly to new players who won't have as many clones, while also not penalizing use of the system so much.

2. Increasing taxes won't move most trade to citadels. Serious traders will never move most of their business to citadels unless they have absolutely nothing to lose if the citadel is destroyed or the owner hikes taxes. That means all assets would have to be easily available at a nearby location for free or a very small fee if the citadel were destroyed, and it would have to be possible to cancel all market orders and move everything out with minimal time or isk expenditure.

3. Increasing taxes will hurt the whole market. Unless there's an extremely easy and safe way to bypass the tax increases, they will eventually hurt everyone. First of all, it will make business a lot less profitable for station traders who keep the buy and sell orders up so everyone else has easy access. That means less orders for uncommon items because of higher brokers fees, and a significantly higher margin between buy and sell prices for common items. Second, it penalizes manufacturing because taxes have to be paid on both the raw materials and the finished product. Raising the cost of transferring items just ends up hurting everyone who doesn't already have everything they need. The rich stay rich, the poor stay poor, and almost everyone gets more annoyed.

If the general increase in taxes and fees is about the isk sink, it's really not the right place to look. Other ways to reduce inflation while improving gameplay instead of hurting it include having NPCs sell more useful items and/or services, making NPCs drop usable loot instead of bounties, making insurance pay back materials or salvage instead of isk, etc.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#72 - 2016-03-03 16:03:17 UTC
Cristl wrote:
Hang on, members of big power blocks are getting free clone jumps, while Newbie McHighsec pays 5 mill per go?

I'm not sure this is such a good idea. Malcanis' law may exist, but there's no reason it needs to be actively enforced.

Or, really, anyone who has the dosh to erect a medium citadel.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#73 - 2016-03-03 16:05:44 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Initial figures show us maintaining a cloning bay in a Citadel will cost 157m ISK a month, we wanted to provide means for the owner to recoup that cost and even make a profit in general.

Maintaining a cloning bay in a Citadel will cost whatever you say it will cost. You can make it cost 157M ISK per month, or 157b ISK per month, or nothing. If you want, you can even make it earn the station owner 157M ISK per month just by existing.

This is a completely arbitrary number that is determined by you devs, and nobody and nothing else. You may have some reason or the other why you feel that having a bay should cost owners that much. Fine, let's hear that reason then so that we can evaluate it against the proposed charge for jump cloning.

But to pretend that jump cloning has some sort of necessary "physical" cost associated with it, as if all this is not simply a game that you are coding exactly the way you want to, is just absurd. If your cost estimate derives from some arbitrary consumption of resources and energy in game that you have decided upon, then the resulting price is still just as arbitrary as what it was derived from.


The cost is the fuel required to run the clone service module at the citadel on a monthly basis. It is not a made up number.
Hendrink Collie
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2016-03-03 16:05:45 UTC
Aryth wrote:
So happy to see taxes in ISK. Makes things so much easier for owners and just in general.


Agreed. I'm pretty happy they are no longer going to take minerals for the tax. Smart move. Smile
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#75 - 2016-03-03 16:10:47 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Niko Zino wrote:
Stuff


Those are fair points we've been discussing internally. Initial figures show us maintaining a cloning bay in a Citadel will cost 157m ISK a month, we wanted to provide means for the owner to recoup that cost and even make a profit in general.


sounds like a toning the costs down issue

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#76 - 2016-03-03 16:12:46 UTC
luobote kong wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
luobote kong wrote:
So the general drift is some people will in future have to ask permission from others to be able to play Eve competitively? I'm thinking small groups and solo players who also can't set up a market in a medium citadel. Good luck with that if that is your intention. Or have I missed something?



Medium Citadels can't fit the market service module - L and XL only


That is my point. Small groups and solo players are being coerced into other people's playstyle



7 Bil is not that much .... it's not that hard to get 7 bil isk.

And if you are Lazy Buy plex for $$
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#77 - 2016-03-03 16:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Hairpins Blueprint
MachineOfLovingGrace wrote:
While I like the idea of more player control about eve, this is moving too far into the regions where other players can effectively control how and where I play eve for my taste. Eve is already a game that is at times as tedious and overcomplicated as it's fun and engaging. The market and jumpclone changes will only make this worse, even more so if you are a casual player without some big alliance logistic backbone. Every change that makes actual gameplay require more logistic/clicks/hassle in general will make casual scrubs like me pause and think if hitting "find game" in CS:GO isn't the better use of my time. Don't lose the "small guy" from focus when you plan some big poweblock endgame.



?

Just build your own Citadel and set tax to 0 for yourself problem solved.

No limit to JC in station / removing timer when swaping clone in same station.


Bad changes? lol this is amazing for pvp. go on small Nano Roam with snakes / than swap for crystals for solo and than swap for slaves into bigger fleet or whatever.


Looks perfect for me ^^
Scotsman Howard
S0utherN Comfort
#78 - 2016-03-03 16:17:52 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
It's all pretty nice and reasonable except for three things:
1. Paying 5 mil to clone jump away from an NPC station seems a bit steep. It would greatly hurt new players who aren't connected enough to know of good citadels for their clones. Also the whole model of paying to jump out of a place seems really weird. How about a recurring "rental fee" to maintain each inactive clone? That would be more friendly to new players who won't have as many clones, while also not penalizing use of the system so much.

2. Increasing taxes won't move most trade to citadels. Serious traders will never move most of their business to citadels unless they have absolutely nothing to lose if the citadel is destroyed or the owner hikes taxes. That means all assets would have to be easily available at a nearby location for free or a very small fee if the citadel were destroyed, and it would have to be possible to cancel all market orders and move everything out with minimal time or isk expenditure.

3. Increasing taxes will hurt the whole market. Unless there's an extremely easy and safe way to bypass the tax increases, they will eventually hurt everyone. First of all, it will make business a lot less profitable for station traders who keep the buy and sell orders up so everyone else has easy access. That means less orders for uncommon items because of higher brokers fees, and a significantly higher margin between buy and sell prices for common items. Second, it penalizes manufacturing because taxes have to be paid on both the raw materials and the finished product. Raising the cost of transferring items just ends up hurting everyone who doesn't already have everything they need. The rich stay rich, the poor stay poor, and almost everyone gets more annoyed.

If the general increase in taxes and fees is about the isk sink, it's really not the right place to look. Other ways to reduce inflation while improving gameplay instead of hurting it include having NPCs sell more useful items and/or services, making NPCs drop usable loot instead of bounties, making insurance pay back materials or salvage instead of isk, etc.


This. Said much better than my attempt earlier in the thread.
Rollo Brinalle
Imaginary Rats.
#79 - 2016-03-03 16:22:24 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Niko Zino wrote:
Stuff


Those are fair points we've been discussing internally. Initial figures show us maintaining a cloning bay in a Citadel will cost 157m ISK a month, we wanted to provide means for the owner to recoup that cost and even make a profit in general.


5m per jump is crazy for NPC jumps and why do they have to recoup their cost? If I put up a POS now it cost me isk and you're not doing anything now to help me recoup my monthly fuel cost? Have a JC bay is a convenience and if you want that convienience then a corp / alliance needs to take that into consideration and determine if they want to offer it.



luobote kong
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2016-03-03 16:31:06 UTC
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:
luobote kong wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
luobote kong wrote:
So the general drift is some people will in future have to ask permission from others to be able to play Eve competitively? I'm thinking small groups and solo players who also can't set up a market in a medium citadel. Good luck with that if that is your intention. Or have I missed something?



Medium Citadels can't fit the market service module - L and XL only


That is my point. Small groups and solo players are being coerced into other people's playstyle



7 Bil is not that much .... it's not that hard to get 7 bil isk.

And if you are Lazy Buy plex for $$


As you say, to have 'level' playing field you will now need 7 billion+. Not really a winning debating point