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[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

First post
Author
Sir SmashAlot
The League of Extraordinary Opportunists
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#681 - 2016-03-10 16:35:48 UTC
The significant increase in transaction friction will lead players to use direct trades or contracts to save on taxes. These methods are cumbersome. Asset management is already enough "work", increasing taxes will provide little incentive for this style of game play.

Large market participants will not take on the added risk of a citadel or the hassle/cost of reclaiming 100s of billions in assets when one gets popped.

It is unclear, if an increase in NPC taxes will net out to a larger isk sink if citadel taxes do not leave the system.

I see the potential for trade hub focused citadels to be a hot bed for great content. However, I feel that increasing NPC taxes is not the best method.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#682 - 2016-03-10 16:46:04 UTC
Kuekuatsheu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rob Kaichin wrote:
Ok, then you can't set your home station to a station you can't dock in.

(As it is with player outposts, I recall.)

The idea isn't to focus onto docking fees, it's to find an incentive which the advocates of the change don't wish to see, but CCP could plausibly propose and their arguments apply to.

I think that we're at risk of veering way off track with this, so maybe we should go back to whatever we were talking about?

How long CCP expects Citadels to remain standing, how quickly they're to be expected to recoup their costs and how many players each Citadel should support seem like good topics for us to consider in respect of the proposed changes.

I'm with Khan on the need for interesting choices as opposed to a punishing tax.


Well docking fee target certain way of playing the game while a trade tax mean everyone face the same price rise when the market adjust it's price to cover the new tax rate. Feel free to find some fee that won't be biased in their application if you want but I think taxes on the market are a good way to go.

You are talking about station trading profit margins, which are often 5-10% of the orders value. The tax (and broker's fee) players pay on this is doubling from 3.5% to 7.5% of the orders value without skills, aka new player.

And you cant see the problem with that?

Trust a Goonie not to understand free market capitalism.

On the other hand NPC sales tax (1.5% of the orders market value) depletes 10 trillion isk a month from the economy (read that figure earlier in this thread, not sure how true it is, but that's a scary number).

So if Goons put 3 Citadels up in high-sec, 1 in Jita, 1 in Amarr and 1 in Dodixie with a 1.5% broker fee and free for all access. Then they'd corner part of the 70% of all high-sec trade that goes through those systems, netting themselves a share of 7 trillion isk a month for no effort at all.

Yer, I think I know where your motivation is... forum troll.


You could always sell at a higher price and get your profit margins back after the new tax level...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#683 - 2016-03-10 16:50:14 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Why do people keep talking about risk when K space has 100% bulletproof automagic asset teleportation to safety?

Ironically added because people wouldn't accept the risk of no asset safety.

/chuckle


You are still risking your assets over some time period because it could be stuck in the teleportation delay for example. It's not a dry loss like a ship going boom but an opportunity cost I guess.

I think they made it because they kind of had painted themself into a corner long ago when they advertised that stuff in station would never really be lost even if you were to quit EVE for some time. You always technically had a way to gain access back to the stuff you had stored. If it all blew up, that's an incentive to come back to the game burning to ashes...
Jack Roulette
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#684 - 2016-03-10 16:56:55 UTC
I think some of these changes are way too harsh to be doing all at once. This feels like the old CCP that only updated the game twice a year. There's no reason that smaller changes can't be made and then incremented based on observation of player behavior. That was THE WHOLE POINT of a more rapid release cycle, and CCP is throwing it out the window by increasing NPC station service fees so sharply.

I get that you want players to use the new structures, but this forceful approach is going to backfire on you.
Kuekuatsheu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#685 - 2016-03-10 17:39:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuekuatsheu
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kuekuatsheu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rob Kaichin wrote:
Ok, then you can't set your home station to a station you can't dock in.

(As it is with player outposts, I recall.)

The idea isn't to focus onto docking fees, it's to find an incentive which the advocates of the change don't wish to see, but CCP could plausibly propose and their arguments apply to.

I think that we're at risk of veering way off track with this, so maybe we should go back to whatever we were talking about?

How long CCP expects Citadels to remain standing, how quickly they're to be expected to recoup their costs and how many players each Citadel should support seem like good topics for us to consider in respect of the proposed changes.

I'm with Khan on the need for interesting choices as opposed to a punishing tax.


Well docking fee target certain way of playing the game while a trade tax mean everyone face the same price rise when the market adjust it's price to cover the new tax rate. Feel free to find some fee that won't be biased in their application if you want but I think taxes on the market are a good way to go.

You are talking about station trading profit margins, which are often 5-10% of the orders value. The tax (and broker's fee) players pay on this is doubling from 3.5% to 7.5% of the orders value without skills, aka new player.

And you cant see the problem with that?

Trust a Goonie not to understand free market capitalism.

On the other hand NPC sales tax (1.5% of the orders market value) depletes 10 trillion isk a month from the economy (read that figure earlier in this thread, not sure how true it is, but that's a scary number).

So if Goons put 3 Citadels up in high-sec, 1 in Jita, 1 in Amarr and 1 in Dodixie with a 1.5% broker fee and free for all access. Then they'd corner part of the 70% of all high-sec trade that goes through those systems, netting themselves a share of 7 trillion isk a month for no effort at all.

Yer, I think I know where your motivation is... forum troll.


You could always sell at a higher price and get your profit margins back after the new tax level...

I guess you were off sick when they covered percentages at school.

Higher prices will not affect the profit margins, because the taxation level as a percentage will remain a constant proportion of the orders value, therefor the sell order value will have to greatly increase (50% with skills, 100% without skills) to allow for the same profit as a fixed value of isk.

Supply and demand kicks in at this point, with the sellers all selling at the same level. People will have buy at the price they dictate, or go without their ships and modules. Eventually buy orders will level out again at a level that allows buyers to make profit, likely still 90% of the market value (because greed) and the only way the sellers can make profit again is to once again artificially inflate the prices.

This system is known in economics as rampant inflation, it happened in Germany before World War Two. There the wheelbarrows weren't big enough to carry the money to buy a loaf of bread. It's happening all over Europe today (slower, but still happening) and it's basically caused by over-taxation and austerity.

The net result is a system where nothing is affordable, prosperity and free market capitalism is a thing of the past.

But in this case only for the plebs living in high-sec, which I'm sure doesn't bother you. However since the high-sec residents are the ones buying PLEX for real life cash to sell for isk, and therefor will need increasing quantities of ISK to fund the spiraling values of modules traded on the market. You'll suddenly find that, like the residents of Germany in the 1930's, all the isk you have now wont buy you a single PLEX.

EVE's economy is a finely balanced system with sustainable inflation and growth, if CCP start messing with that just so they can shoe-horn control of the high-sec markets into the hands of the null-sec alliances this whole house of cards will come tumbling down.
Rain Kaessinde
Liminal Cloudwatch
#686 - 2016-03-10 17:51:46 UTC
So, is there any form of asset security for jump clones stored in a citadel cloning facility? Because it looks like they can be destroyed or otherwise lost in a variety of ways, through accident, malice, or indifference, which represents a rather inferior quality of service compared to NPC stations.

Until now, it was enough that citadel clone bays provide this service where stations don't. (We were certainly excited about owning one.) But it's disingenuous to push them as direct competition for station business when they don't actually offer a competitive product. Actively punishing station use in this situation amounts to "pay more or get less", which is not an offer anyone's going to appreciate.

How well would NPC market fee hikes be received in the absence of citadel asset security?

The stars might lie, but the numbers never do.

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#687 - 2016-03-10 17:58:54 UTC
Kuekuatsheu wrote:


EVE's economy is a finely balanced system with sustainable inflation and growth, if CCP start messing with that just so they can shoe-horn control of the high-sec markets into the hands of the null-sec alliances this whole house of cards will come tumbling down.


You do realize that if a large null-sec organisation was to try to get control over the market, they would have to allow anyone to dock in said citadel so stuff can be bought/sold in there which mean you could also play the market at the reduced tax rate as long as you are willing to put your assets in that citadel?

Even if GSF was to put a Citadel in HS, we could not control the market because the market need to be open to pretty much all to ever get inside that citadel. If we setup a market for blue only, we will control that part of the market but not the rest of it because we can't get the other sales done in our citadel where people can't dock and use said market.

At best, we will swim in tax money IF we provide the market service to enough people to capture at least a large aprt of the market with tax low enough to attract traders but high enough to generate a good income but in that case, you can play there too so we don't control it. You benefit from reduced tax just like our members.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#688 - 2016-03-10 18:01:08 UTC
Rain Kaessinde wrote:
So, is there any form of asset security for jump clones stored in a citadel cloning facility? Because it looks like they can be destroyed or otherwise lost in a variety of ways, through accident, malice, or indifference, which represents a rather inferior quality of service compared to NPC stations.


I gonna guess your clones in citadels won't be safe from destruction which will be an added risk to using a citadel countered by the potential for cheaper cost.
Kuekuatsheu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#689 - 2016-03-10 18:04:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuekuatsheu
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kuekuatsheu wrote:


EVE's economy is a finely balanced system with sustainable inflation and growth, if CCP start messing with that just so they can shoe-horn control of the high-sec markets into the hands of the null-sec alliances this whole house of cards will come tumbling down.


You do realize that if a large null-sec organisation was to try to get control over the market, they would have to allow anyone to dock in said citadel so stuff can be bought/sold in there which mean you could also play the market at the reduced tax rate as long as you are willing to put your assets in that citadel?

Even if GSF was to put a Citadel in HS, we could not control the market because the market need to be open to pretty much all to ever get inside that citadel. If we setup a market for blue only, we will control that part of the market but not the rest of it because we can't get the other sales done in our citadel where people can't dock and use said market.

At best, we will swim in tax money IF we provide the market service to enough people to capture at least a large aprt of the market with tax low enough to attract traders but high enough to generate a good income but in that case, you can play there too so we don't control it. You benefit from reduced tax just like our members.

Until you decide, as Goons have a history of doing, to be a jackass and remove my rights of access. And if i was undocked at the time, doing other things. All of my billions of isk in assets would be locked in a Citadel I cannot access and the only way I could ever get them back would be to blow up said Citadel.

But it's ok, as a high-sec station trader with characters in a C3 wormhole corp I'm sure I could destroy a Goonswarm controlled citadel... *sarcasm*.

Unlimited isk, total control of an otherwise collapsing market and unlimited rights to be a total $^*&. Null-sec alliances don't need that kind of power.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#690 - 2016-03-10 18:11:13 UTC
Kuekuatsheu wrote:

Until you decide, as Goons have a history of doing, to be a jackass and remove my rights of access. And if i was undocked at the time, doing other things. All of my billions of isk in assets would be locked in a Citadel I cannot access and the only way I could ever get them back would be to blow up said Citadel.

But it's ok, as a high-sec station trader with characters in a C3 wormhole corp I'm sure I could destroy a Goonswarm controlled citadel... *sarcasm*.

Unlimited isk, total control of an otherwise collapsing market and unlimited rights to be a total $*^&. Null-sec alliances don't need that kind of power.


You do realise you can use the asset recovery service to get your stuff back right?
Kuekuatsheu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#691 - 2016-03-10 18:17:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuekuatsheu
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kuekuatsheu wrote:

Until you decide, as Goons have a history of doing, to be a jackass and remove my rights of access. And if i was undocked at the time, doing other things. All of my billions of isk in assets would be locked in a Citadel I cannot access and the only way I could ever get them back would be to blow up said Citadel.

But it's ok, as a high-sec station trader with characters in a C3 wormhole corp I'm sure I could destroy a Goonswarm controlled citadel... *sarcasm*.

Unlimited isk, total control of an otherwise collapsing market and unlimited rights to be a total $*^&. Null-sec alliances don't need that kind of power.


You do realise you can use the asset recovery service to get your stuff back right?


You mean this: I feel safe in Citadel city

Which allows for personal assets in a destroyed Citadel to be transfered to an NPC station or another Citadel of the controlling corperations choice. Which also requires a fee to allow me to recover them, aka I need to blow up a Citadel and then pay 10% of the market value to recover my stuff after a delay of 5 days.

That system? Yer commented on the need to blow up Citadels before...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#692 - 2016-03-10 18:24:42 UTC
Kuekuatsheu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kuekuatsheu wrote:

Until you decide, as Goons have a history of doing, to be a jackass and remove my rights of access. And if i was undocked at the time, doing other things. All of my billions of isk in assets would be locked in a Citadel I cannot access and the only way I could ever get them back would be to blow up said Citadel.

But it's ok, as a high-sec station trader with characters in a C3 wormhole corp I'm sure I could destroy a Goonswarm controlled citadel... *sarcasm*.

Unlimited isk, total control of an otherwise collapsing market and unlimited rights to be a total $*^&. Null-sec alliances don't need that kind of power.


You do realise you can use the asset recovery service to get your stuff back right?


You mean this: I feel safe in Citadel city

Which allows for personal assets in a destroyed Citadel to be transfered to an NPC station or another Citadel of the controlling corperations choice. Which also requires a fee to allow me to recover them, aka I need to blow up a Citadel and then pay 10% of the market value to recover my stuff after a delay of 5 days.

That system? Yer commented on the need to blow up Citadels before...


Let's say we do this, do you think you will be all alone getting burned in this? Can't the whole group of people who would of gotten burned by it work together to take that citadel down? Maybe that's too much work for an MMO player...
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#693 - 2016-03-10 18:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Kaichin
Yeah, because a bunch of people who've never worked together before are a) going to know who each other are and b) going to have the resources to bring down a GSF Citadel.

Keep it real.

I've still not seen evidence that you can just deliver your stuff from a hostile Citadel. I thought asset safety was only triggered when the citadel was repackaged or destroyed.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#694 - 2016-03-10 18:45:15 UTC
Rob Kaichin wrote:
Yeah, because a bunch of people who've never worked together before are a) going to know who each other are and b) going to have the resources to bring down a GSF Citadel.

Keep it real.


It's part of the risk for wanting to benefit from lower taxes. NPC stations won't suffer such risk but pay higher taxes.
Kuekuatsheu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#695 - 2016-03-10 18:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuekuatsheu
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rob Kaichin wrote:
Yeah, because a bunch of people who've never worked together before are a) going to know who each other are and b) going to have the resources to bring down a GSF Citadel.

Keep it real.


It's part of the risk for wanting to benefit from lower taxes. NPC stations won't suffer such risk but pay higher taxes.

Rock and a Hard Place?

P.s. We already have lower taxes, the benefit of not suffering from higher ones is what you mean. Some benefit.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#696 - 2016-03-10 18:51:33 UTC
Kuekuatsheu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rob Kaichin wrote:
Yeah, because a bunch of people who've never worked together before are a) going to know who each other are and b) going to have the resources to bring down a GSF Citadel.

Keep it real.


It's part of the risk for wanting to benefit from lower taxes. NPC stations won't suffer such risk but pay higher taxes.

Rock and a Hard Place?

P.s. We already have lower taxes, the benefit of not suffering from higher ones is what you mean. Some benefit.


Your lower taxes are going away. Getting lower taxes at that point will be citadels only which mean face risk or pay more for safety.
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#697 - 2016-03-10 19:13:25 UTC
Punishment without crime basically.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#698 - 2016-03-10 19:17:59 UTC
Rob Kaichin wrote:
Punishment without crime basically.


You are not getting punished. You will pay the base price. Citadels user will get better treatment because they are willing to deal with the risk of citadels.
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#699 - 2016-03-10 19:19:23 UTC
It's a punishment compared to the current level.

A 400% tax increase is punitive. There's no other word for it.
Kuekuatsheu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#700 - 2016-03-10 19:29:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuekuatsheu
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rob Kaichin wrote:
Punishment without crime basically.


You are not getting punished. You will pay the base price. Citadels user will get better treatment because they are willing to deal with the PRIVILEGE OF BEING IN A NULL-SEC ALLIANCE.

Corrected for factual accuracy. I hope you don't mind.
I think we've kind of found the salient point of this discussion.